Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

mrbill said:
I've been using these templates to store my settings... Unfortunately, the .xls files were not included in this distribution and the PDFs have non-editable data fields. Can you include editable files?
Click to expand...
Sure - can do.

I've had several catastrophic laptop failures - building fresh system drives to press previously retired laptops back into service. I'm now on my antique steam-driven backup-backup-laptop. Instead of re-installing/licensing all desktop tools again on this last old (but faithful!) laptop, I sleazed on the p6 parameter file package just to get it out...

Laptop replacement parts are finally coming in this week, so one way or the other an editable p6 version will get posted shortly. :D
(...nice to know folks are (were) actually using the editable stuff!)
 
teklektik said:
The 3.0 Prelim 6 Parameter Setup Summary package has been updated with an XLS form so setups can be saved to file.

The new form file can be edited with either MS Excel or Apache OpenOffice (free!) and has pulldown menus to make form fill-in a bit quicker.

Enjoy! :D
Click to expand...

Hi teklektik:

Thanks for getting this up quickly.

Since you've protected the worksheet with a password, I was unable to fix a few minor, nitpicking bugs. And, since I can see that you like to be thorough, here's what I found:

1) When choosing "mi" for Spd -> Units, Spd -> TotDist units remains as "km", and SLim -> Max Speed and Strt Speed still show "{mph|kph}", SLim -> PSGain still shows "V/{mph|kph}", and PAS -> MxThrotSpd still shows "{mph|kph}".

2) When choosing "Voltage" for ThrO -> Outpt Mode, units for ThrO -> Min Out, Max Out, Brake Out should be set accordingly.

3) Pref -> Stop Scrns and Pref -> Movn Scrns should be a character field not a number field so that the bitmap is displayed properly.
 
mrbill said:
Since you've protected the worksheet with a password, I was unable to fix a few minor, nitpicking bugs. And, since I can see that you like to be thorough, here's what I found:
1...2...3...
Click to expand...
All good points!
Kind of busy splicing laptops together just now, but I'll get after those items before too long to get the form polished up.
Thanks for the prompt review. :D
 
teklektik said:
... I'll get after those items before too long to get the form polished up.
Thanks for the prompt review. :D
Click to expand...
What the heck - since you localized the issues, might as well just do it....
The zip file is re-posted with those fixes and a few similar issues where it was nice to have the form update units and selections based on values already entered... :D
 
teklektik said:
Configurable AuxPot 3-Position Switch Using Fixed Resistors

This describes how to construct an AuxPot 3-position switch to limit any of: Current, Power, Speed, or PAS Assist. The switch selects one of three percentages of the configured limiting parameter: (high, med, low) = (100%, Lmed, Llow) e.g. (100%, 66%, 33%). Although fixed resistors are used, a wide range of Lmed and Llow values can be configured using Setup.

Theory of Operation

The idea is to establish fixed switch-selectable voltages but shift the endpoints of the allowable AuxPot input voltage range to alter the way those voltages appear relative to one another and to the overall AuxPot range.
  • In the illustration below, the red portion shows the maximum AuxPot voltage range and several voltages determined by fixed resistors.
  • The green scales show three different possible working ranges of AuxPot input as determined by (AuxMinIn,AuxMaxIn). Although limits Llow and Lmed are bound to fixed voltages, the overall green scale can be shifted left or right or expanded or compressed by moving the endpoints - this changes the relative position of Llow and Lmed in that range and thus their effective values. So - it's all a matter of point of view....
  • The relative values of the fixed voltages also impose certain limitions on the possible Limit Value configurations. The trick is to pick voltages that will allow a range of commonly useful limit settings.
Fabrication

The switch is wired as shown below. For accessory current inventory purposes, this circuit draws a maximum of 0.53ma. The switch can be any center-off SPDT toggle or rocker switch - or any of the commercially available ebike 3-position switches. Current is very low - resistor wattage can be anything available (1/8W, etc).


This can be fabricated many ways, including squeezing the resistors into the side cover of common 3-speed ebike switch. However, an easy technique that is pretty stealthy is to cut the cable of an ebike 3-speed switch and splice the resistors in-line. Choose some part of the cable run that is relatively straight and will not be subject to flex. Leave the end resistor leads a little long and spiral wrap the whole thing with waxed dental floss (DIY cable lacing twine) out to the end of the resistor leads so they are bound to the insulated cable wire for strength. Sleeve with a couple of layers of heatshrink.

Before you add the outer heatshrink, verify the pin-to-pin resitances below with a meter for the three switch positions. Then plug the cable into the CA, navigate to the Setup AuxPot Section Preview screen and check that the voltages are as shown in the table for the three switch settings. If all is well, apply the outer heatshrink. :)

This printable PDF has the images above for bench use.

Configuration

  1. Set appropriate Setup parameter (e.g. PLim->MaxCurrent, PLim->MaxPower, Pas->PasWatts) to desired maximum value.
  2. Determine LowLimit% = ( LowValue/MaximumValue)*100.
  3. Determine MediumLimit% = (MediumValue/MaximumValue)*100.
  4. Locate proper cell in table at (col,row) = (LowLimit%, MediumLimit%)
  5. Transfer cell values to Aux->AuxMinIn and Aux->AuxMaxIn.
  6. Go to Setup AuxPot Section Preview screen, verify switch settings (L,M,H) display limits of (LowLimit%, MediumLimit%, 99%).
  7. If limits are not exactly as desired, then locate the appropriate adjacent cell and modify both AuxMinIn and AuxMaxIn toward those new cell values.
Note: Altering the maximum limit value (e.g. PasWatts) will result in proportional changes to the medium and low limits.

This is a printable PDF of the settings table for shop use/road adjustments.

For example, to set up the switch for PAS Assist at levels (750W, 450W, 250W):
  1. Set PAS->PASWatts = 750W
  2. LowLimit% = 250W/750W x 100 = 33%
  3. MedLimit% = 450W/750W x 100 = 60%
  4. Look up row 60%, column 33% in table. Use nearest cell (60,32) and get (0.65, 3.57)
  5. Go to Setup PAS section
    • Set AuxMinIn = 0.65, AuxMaxIn = 3.57
    • Go to PAS section preview screen and operate switch - Asst% should show (99%,60%,32%)
Grin Tech 3-Position Switch

There is a new Grin Tech 3-position switch that prompted this post - it uses the identical fixed resistance/adjustable min/max strategy, but with a slightly different four resistor circuit. The fixed voltages are: (L,M,H) = (1.66v,2.50v,3.33v). The 3-resistor circuit presented in this post appears to provide a bit wider adjustment range (I have an email out to Justin about this).

This is a printable PDF of the settings table for shop use/road adjustments for the Grin Tech 3-position switch.


Operation as a Preset Switch

This ES switch can be used as a 3-position Preset Switch by setting (AuxMinIn, AuxMaxIn) to (2v, 3v).
The Grin Tech switch can be used as a 3-position Preset Switch by setting (AuxMinIn, AuxMaxIn) to (1v, 4v).
Click to expand...
Awesome info there!
I'm thinking it would be great if there was a plug and play adaptor for the aux to 3speed switch and a dummy high speed plug for the speed switch plug on the controller. I'm sure many ppl would buy such an item because not all high powered ebike enthusiast have experience with circuit reading and building. Especially considering ebikes.CA sells CA v3 and crystalyte it makes sense they would sell an plug and play adaptor.
edit
just seen this "3 Level Auxiliary Input Switch for CA3 Device" for sale on ebikes.ca .. still the issue of making the controller go high speed without having 2 sets of switches. but yeah thats prety simple to cut a cord and twist 2 wires together and tape up.
 
I just got the CA3 yesterday and the display works but when I throttled it was going really slow unloaded and unridable if I sat on th ebike. I expected that it would have the latest programme on it because it just came from ebikes.ca...

I am confused by the ton of information about how to set up v3 - I don't need anything fancy for now, just want it to display what the bikes doing and not affect the way the motor works.

what do I do?
I'm using it on:
Crystalyte 4065 Rear Hub motor laced to a 26"
Crystalyte 12 FET, 48V40A digital controller
Crystalyte Split Twist Grip throttle

thanks

EDIT: JUSTIN REPLIED IN EMAIL A MINUTE AFTER I CONTACTED HIM.!!!!!!! WOW that is excellent service!!!!
 
oldtown169 said:
teklektik said:
oldtown169 said:
When I turn on the CA it says Ver3 Prlm5 is this the firmware?
Click to expand...
Yes. It won't affect this problem, but you should move up to P6 at your earliest opportunity to get to the contemporary supported version.

oldtown169 said:
Ebrakes are connected to the controller.
Click to expand...
You need to connect your ebrakes to the V3 instead.
Using V3 auto-cruise without the ebrake input is very dangerous as you discovered.

In your present configuration, the CA cannot tell that the ebrakes have been applied and so the auto-cruise remains engaged. If you examine the Throttle OUT field on the diagnostic screen with auto-cruise engaged, you will see that the throttle voltage to the controller is unchanged when you apply the brakes. The ebrakes are instead cutting the controller power downstream, so when they are released the auto-cruise throttle setting immediately takes effect.

By attaching the ebrakes to the CA, applying them will cause the Throttle OUT voltage will go to the ThrO->BrakeOut voltage (typically 0v) to stop the motor and (importantly) cruise will disengage.

Hmmm - guess this deserves a caveat in the Guide......
Click to expand...

Thanks teklektik. I guess I'll have to change the connector so it will fit into the CA's plug? Where would I find a source for the connector and instructions to change/crimp it? I did receive my kit from EM3EV....
Click to expand...


I just wiped out my motorcycle at low speed with this feature. could've been much worse. I suggest that there at minimum be a minimum speed at which this engages, like on cars. At higher speeds, acceleration is less usually and therefore more easily responded to. I'm okay, but scared the hell out of me. 15mph cruise 50 feet before a stop sign. paniced.. no ebrake cut off. didn't hit kill switch. went for front brake.

Be careful, guys! edit: by the way, I'm at fault here. I should've had at least ebrake on. Luckily I was not on full power mode.. otherwise my bike would've launched into a lake (no joke)
 
hillzofvalp said:
oldtown169 said:
teklektik said:
Using V3 auto-cruise without the ebrake input is very dangerous...
Hmmm - guess this deserves a caveat in the Guide......
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I just wiped out my motorcycle at low speed with this feature.
edit: by the way, I'm at fault here. I should've had at least ebrake on.
Click to expand...
Shortly after the posts with oldtown169, a number of caveats were added to the Guide (present in current P6 version) to warn of this and a related problem when attempting to use controller auto-cruise instead of the CA feature.

As always, thanks for posts with questions and issues - this stuff ends up in the Guide and hopefully helps out other (new) V3 users down the line.... :)
 
I discovered what I believe is a minor bug with the latest release (Prelim6) that may have been present in prior releases of the V3 firmware.

When pressing and holding the right button for a few seconds a "Trip Reset" is executed, EXCEPT when the current screen is "Trip Regen Statistics", screen 6. Pressing and holding the right button on that screen executes a "Peak Stats Reset", which resets Amin, Amax, Vmin, and MaxS. What's odd is those stats are displayed on Screens 7, "Trip Voltage/Amperage Statistics", and Screen 8, "Trip Time/Speed Statistics".

I would prefer a right-button-press-and-hold to do a Trip Reset on all screens BUT screens 7 and 8, where it would do only a 'Peak Stats Reset". This is slightly different from V2 behavior where a right-button press and hold would do a Peak Stats Reset only on the "Trip Voltage/Amperage Statistics" screen.

I still get an occasional spurious MaxS reading and would like to be able to reset this in the middle of a trip while observing the "Trip Time/Speed Statistics" screen, where MaxS is displayed.
 
On one of my ebikes I swapped out my bottom bracket for the Thun BB. The swap went smoothly, and I am in the process of testing the system. So far I have found one problem and have one new feature request.

The problem is that the Thun BB has more flex than my old Phil Wood BB. I suspect this has something to do with the plastic cups where the Phil Wood uses aluminum. This flex causes noticeable runout of the chainrings, especially when pedaling hard. Since my motor drive connects at my crank, I can't afford to have much runout or the motor chain gets thrown, and this has occurred a few times, always when I apply a peak torque to the pedals as when starting from a stop, which is also when the motor is supplying maximum power. Because of this I have not been able to test all aspects of the torque assist.

I plan to spend some time finding a way to prevent the chain from getting thrown when the chainrings are running out of true, perhaps by allowing my slack-side pulley on the motor chain to travel laterally in the way the upper pulley of a rear derailleur is allowed to float and to mis-align slightly the motor's driving sprocket from the driven ring on my crank when it's unloaded so that when loaded it pulls the system into alignment. I'll post an update later.

My feature request is to be able to see maximum human watts and maximum RPM. Perhaps these "Max" stats can be displayed on the "Trip Pedal Assist Statistics" screen, alternating with AvgHW and AvgRPM.
 
mrbill said:
The problem is that the Thun BB has more flex than my old Phil Wood BB. I suspect this has something to do with the plastic cups where the Phil Wood uses aluminum. This flex causes noticeable runout of the chainrings, especially when pedaling hard. Since my motor drive connects at my crank, I can't afford to have much runout or the motor chain gets thrown, and this has occurred a few times, always when I apply a peak torque to the pedals as when starting from a stop, which is also when the motor is supplying maximum power. Because of this I have not been able to test all aspects of the torque assist.
Click to expand...

I changed the offset of my BB to get the driven chainring in better alignment with the driving sprocket on the motor, and I can no longer get the chain to pop off, even with hard pedaling and max power (1000 watts). To get better alignment I had to move the driven sprocket on my crank so that when it was unloaded it appeared to be slightly outboard of the driving sprocket on the motor. Then when the motor chain is under maximum tension it pulls the driven sprocket into better alignment with the driving sprocket.

I'm still working on dialing in the gain settings for use in TrqPAS mode. I've read through and followed the latest article in Appendix C of the Unofficial CA V3 UserGuide. But, I'm still getting a displeasing lag of motor power upon application of pedaling force, followed by a broad overshoot, even if I stop pedaling. Then while coasting to a stop I sometimes get a surge of power. I'm worried that the motor power is somehow being sensed by the torque sensor in the BB and causing positive feedback. The Thun sensor shows human watts (about 30w) when I turn the right crank by hand with the rear wheel off the ground. I thought it only could sense torque on the left crank. Also, I sometimes see a significant peak of negative Hwatts just after I stop pedaling and notice that I frequently need to zero the torque sensor. Has anyone tried to set up a TrqPAS system using a mid-drive or crank-drive system and have any advice? Here's a link to a photo of my drive system:

http://mrbill.homeip.net/albums/power_gold_rush_build/pages/page_85.html

My current settings:

ThO->up rate: 0.67 V/sec
ThO->downRate: 9.99 V/sec
ThO->fastRate: 4.99 V/sec

SLim->MaxSpeed: 35 mph
SLim->StrtSpeed: 0
SLim->IntSGain: 250
SLim->PSGain 0.85 V/mph
SLim->DSGain: 150

PLim->AGain: 150
PLim->MaxCurrent: 45A
PLim->WGain: 50
PLim->MaxPower: 1000w

PAS->MaxThrotSpeed: 99 mph

Trq->AsstFactor: 8 (used with Aux Pot for lower level of assist)
Trq->AsstStart: +50w
Trq->AsstAvg: 8

Other settings are default or irrelevant.
 
i don't have a mid drive or crank drive, but i did have to recently return a faulty THUN BB that would not calibrate to zero properly.

i now have a replacement BB with alloy cups made by TDCM that Justin supplied as a replacement for the THUN.
it only arrived today, so haven't had the chance to install it as yet.

one major advantage (apart from the alloy cups) is that this unit measures both left and right side crank torque,
but the down side is that it saturates at 50NM, and isn't as accurate as the thun for human watts data.

Jason
 
I bought a CA v3 a while back and I've just tried to set it up.

Is there a manual for this ? I can't re3member if there is one or not.

When I connect it up it always reads negative watts when idle, and increases to positive watts when I open the throttle

I'm sure there's a simple explanation :))

Any references on how to setup appreciated

Thanks, Newman
 
newman64 said:
I bought a CA v3 a while back and I've just tried to set it up.

Is there a manual for this ?
Click to expand...

Start reading here: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=571345#p571345
 
Diamondback said:
i don't have a mid drive or crank drive, but i did have to recently return a faulty THUN BB that would not calibrate to zero properly.

i now have a replacement BB with alloy cups made by TDCM that Justin supplied as a replacement for the THUN.
it only arrived today, so haven't had the chance to install it as yet.

one major advantage (apart from the alloy cups) is that this unit measures both left and right side crank torque,
but the down side is that it saturates at 50NM, and isn't as accurate as the thun for human watts data.

Jason
Click to expand...

I can get the Thun BB to calibrate to zero well enough. But, it doesn't stay well-calibrated. It drifts quite a bit. By my rough guess it could be off by as much as 10 watts 10 minutes after I calibrate it to zero. Does anyone know what the claimed accuracy of the Thun BB is?

My old PowerTap claimed +-1.5% accuracy, and I did have to zero it a few times over the 10 years I regularly used it. But the Thun I have had to zero several times over a 6 hour period.

Just now I noticed that cycling power to the CAV3 moves the calibration out of alignment by about -0.5 Nm.

When calibrating I stop the cranks from turning and remove my feet from the pedals.
 
Another problem I have with the CAV3_Prelim6 release is the Trq->AsstFactr. I have it set to "8.00 Times". With the Aux Pot at 25% and Aux->ScaleLim = "PAS Level", I see roughly 100 watts drawn from the battery for about 100 watts produced at the pedals. If my math is correct, I should be seeing 200 watts drawn from the battery for 100 human watts, since 25% of AsstFactr 8 is 2.

Is it possible that the firmware is scaling current assuming that human and motor watts are based on a nominal "48-volt" supply? I am running my motor/controller on a 24-volt nominal supply.
 
mrbill said:
When calibrating I stop the cranks from turning and remove my feet from the pedals.
Click to expand...

More information:

It looks like the reading of the static torque on the Thun (on the SETUP TRQ SENSOR screen) varies by pedal position. For example I took two different static measurements, resetting zero torque between the two measurements:

1st measurement:
Left pedal up: 0 Nm
Left pedal back: -5.4 Nm
Left pedal down: 2.5 Nm
Left pedal forward: -1.5 Nm

2nd measurement:
Left pedal up: -0.3 Nm
Left pedal back: -3.3 Nm
Left pedal down: 1.6 Nm
Left pedal forward: -1.0 Nm

Setting zero with left pedal in the quadrant "forward to up" would center the error, but the variance is wide. I would expect something around +- 1Nm, maybe +-1.5 Nm, given that a left crank with attached pedal is about 1 lb (450g).
 
Is there any way to get the cav3 work with the kty81-210 which is a PTC thermistor?

Or is there another display unit that would communicate with it to limit or roll back amps used...

EDIT:

Linear type
1.19V for 0 degree
125 deg/V for T Scale
90 for Thrash Temp.

this appears to work... thanks
 
I'm still having issues with the v3 (with all firmwares I have tried so far, including prelim5/6). From memory, the bootloader was 0202 or something like that.

It is the old doesn't boot every time when switched on (but the screen backlight turns on). For months I was putting up with this, I thought it was just the switch that I was using, but I tried a whole bunch of switches and they all do it to some degree.

I have an eb312 controller, with a switch placed on the external power switch loop (where Paul/Cellman told me to put a switch).

Am I using bad switches or is this an issue with the v3?
 
Architectonic said:
I'm still having issues with the v3 (with all firmwares I have tried so far, including prelim5/6).
It is the old doesn't boot every time when switched on (but the screen backlight turns on).
Am I using bad switches or is this an issue with the v3?
Click to expand...
I have had the same problem since day one with two different V3s. Justin worked on it for some time with me, but when no one else was reporting it, we just sort of back-burnered investigations as an oddity of my bike and installation. Mine does it when the whole bike is switched on via pre-charge button or when the separate Vbatt keyswitch (controllers/DC converter/CA) is thrown. Fortunately, it usually starts right away and always kicks in after an extra try or two, so...

Anyhow - misery loves company - it's not just you :D - but no clue if it's the bike or the V3....
 
Mine does the no boot thing too. It's more prevalent at top of charge voltage, 124V, and after sitting in the sun for 15-20min during daily shopping. There's nothing running off of the switch other than the controllers' low current circuitry, no precharge or DC/DC convertor. It's definitely the V3, not your bike.
 
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