Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

[ebike11]

Wrong chemistry. This effect can be seen in the SOC graphs in the Guide.

You mean, I must select other BATTERY TYPE in tge setup menu??

 

[teklektik]

You mean, I must select other BATTERY TYPE in tge setup menu??

???? There is no 'BATTERY TYPE' parameter. There is Batt->Chemistry.

Maybe I misunderstood - I thought you meant the SOC Gas Gauge display had 66% pixels.... there is no actual percentage display having to do with the battery.

Did you mean the Gas Gauge or are you talking about an actual "66%" displayed somewhere? If you are talking about an actual "66%", where are you seeing this?

 

[ebike11]

You mean, I must select other BATTERY TYPE in tge setup menu??

???? There is no 'BATTERY TYPE' parameter. There is Batt->Chemistry.

Maybe I misunderstood - I thought you meant the SOC Gas Gauge display had 66% pixels.... there is no actual percentage display having to do with the battery.

Did you mean the Gas Gauge or are you talking about an actual "66%" displayed somewhere? If you are talking about an actual "66%", where are you seeing this?

Ah yes Batt> Chemistry.
Im seeing the 66% in this patricular menu.

Im not at home to specifically check and say, sorry

 

[panurge]

Hello Justin
Wow, I'm honored to get so much of your attention....

Just to make sure I understand you right, you want a signal that basically reverses the motor direction of a 2-speed retro-direct motor transmission based on certain CA parameters? What is the actual nature of the input signal on the reversable controller that you are running in these systems, is it a simple 0-5V or 0-3.3V digital logic input?

yes that's it....I don't know about the kind of signal input the controller need, I will test it, but the switch doesn't look different from a normal 3 position switch, I think the controller is a modified trike/quad one but has some logic for the autoshift while in Auto position.

Indeed you got me there There aren't any 'spare'' input/output ports on the CA3, so to do this would require re-purposing one of the existing signal lines to be an output instead of an input, and the only one really available for this would be the "D" PAS direction signal line. Or I suppose the thermistor input could be set as an output too, and then there would still be the ability to have a directional sense via the PAS sensor of your pedal direction so you could have a "backwards pedal to shift gear" option, kinda like an electrical version of the old kick-shift 2 speed hubs!

That would be cool, but, I understand, more difficult than what I supposed...The kick-shift idea is funny!!

Yes, another feature that I've thought heavily about over the years . You can actually experiment with this now by setting up your system to have a power (watts) throttle and setting your min throttle input to be slightly lower than the actual throttle off voltage. So if your throttle is sitting at 0.9V, put your min throttle input at say 1.0V, so when you let go of the throttle it is at about 4%. If your max power is set to 1000 watts, then when you let go of the throttle it would still be commanding 40 watts from the motor, which is about what it takes to spin a motor unloaded. You'd definitely also want to have the ebrakes wired up so you can shut the motor off completely as well, probably via a handlebar on/off switch.

Yes, I experimented this even with the old CA-LRC, using Amp throttle and leaving that throttle residual...that's with an Astro 3220 4t and HV160 shunted/wired for the CA. It works great, Don't know why but the idling starts only while applying throttle the first time after boot up or setup exit, also with the LRC, that throttle residual is not dependent from the MinSpeed value, and not having e-brakes lines.....could be cool for a single track or a race...

Another way would be to use the autoPAS mode with a PAS sensor, but have the PASWatts be your low double digits value to keep the motor spinning. Then at least when you turn the bike on it won't be putting a small amount of power through the motor. It's only when you are pedaling then the motor would spin up to speed to be engaged but not provide much power, and then use your throttle when you actually want power output.

If you have a setup and can play around with this first to see how it works, then that would help determine if it's worth including as a build-in feature. We'd add a parameter for "idle watts", and whenever the speed > 0 and the ebrakes are not pressed, then the CA would be commanding this small baseline power. Eliminates the effect of cogging torque in a DD motor so that it feels like a perfect freewheel, and keeps a geared or mid-drive motor engaged so that there is no transmission shock when the motor spins up to speed

I'm definitively In to experiment with this setup, also with the Pas, even if that Astro bike has never seen one :wink: That "idle watts" parameter is exactly what I was talking about!

I will order a new CA3 to be dedicated to that.

Thanks for all your efforts.

 

[ebike11]

You mean, I must select other BATTERY TYPE in tge setup menu??

???? There is no 'BATTERY TYPE' parameter. There is Batt->Chemistry.

Maybe I misunderstood - I thought you meant the SOC Gas Gauge display had 66% pixels.... there is no actual percentage display having to do with the battery.

Did you mean the Gas Gauge or are you talking about an actual "66%" displayed somewhere? If you are talking about an actual "66%", where are you seeing this?

Hi teklektik, Sorry I made a mistake
I set the cells of my battery to 18 and Ah at 20,
When I select the chemistry, most of the battery types display 66V and some
types are less than 66V in the setup screen.

My real time voltage is 72V on the main screen

Does the voltage in the Setup> Batt>Chemistry have to match the voltage on the main screen??

 

[panurge]

....then the CA would be commanding this small baseline power. Eliminates the effect of cogging torque in a DD motor so that it feels like a perfect freewheel, and keeps a geared or mid-drive motor engaged so that there is no transmission shock when the motor spins up to speed.

Actually my separated mid drive transmission would get serious improvements using such features:

- Reduce or eliminate the freewheel drag/noise probably even allowing the unit to work longer...
- Eliminate the surges that happens with a power based throttle while reapplying the throttle from 0, especially if the amp limit is high (>80Amps)
- reduce/eliminate the transmission shocks

Should be maybe more relevant to include this feature into the CA3 platform, the fact that, as you say, even a direct drive motor could take advantage from that feature aoiding cogging... and that it could elongate the gear's life of a geared motor.

A downside is a probable increase in consumption....in fact using 40+W for something that's not to spin the wheel... In my case I'll get for sure a better efficiency while pedaling and downhilling, and, mostly, even only to avoid the surges worth the juice spent....since it gives a general functionality advantage that could have no price....

 

[teklektik]

I set the cells of my battery to 18 and Ah at 20,
When I select the chemistry, most of the battery types display 66V and some
types are less than 66V in the setup screen.

My real time voltage is 72V on the main screen

Does the voltage in the Setup> Batt>Chemistry have to match the voltage on the main screen??

Okay - this make much more sense than the 66% earlier reported.

66V is the mean discharge voltage of the battery - the 'mean average' voltage reading over the entire discharge cycle. This is not the same as the nominal voltage or the Hot Off the Charger (HOC) voltage of 73v that you report. You have a 66v battery, not a 73v battery. Multiplying the mean voltage times the Ah rating gives a pretty good estimate of the battery capacity which can be useful for estimating range, etc. - in your case, 66v x 20Ah = 1320Wh.

This 66v value is a characteristic of the battery based solely on cell count and chemistry and is not the same as the voltage reported on the main screen which shows the actual battery voltage at a point in time. You should be setting Batt->Chemistry according to the actual chemistry of your cells. You look like like you might have NMC cells so LiPo would be the appropriate setting. This should make the battery gauge read 'full' HOC. The matter of chemistry (or incidentally the reported battery 'type' voltage - 66v) is of no consequence to normal CA operation other than to make the gas gauge display correctly.

The measurements of interest for bike operation are the voltage an Ah readings on the main screen.

 

[ebike11]

Thanks a lot for explaining!!
I see what you mean

Is there an accurate equation to find the Ah value?
I was told 20Ah by the seller but would like to verify

 

[teklektik]

Is there an accurate equation to find the Ah value?
I was told 20Ah by the seller but would like to verify

This is nominally the number of cells in parallel (the 'p' value in 18s8p) times the single cell capacity (eg 8x 2.5Ah = 20Ah). However, this changes with temperature, discharge rate, age, and abuse.

However, you can determine this empirically. Based on the spec sheet for your particular batter (eg Samsumg LiNiMnCo ICR18650-22P) you will find a minimum discharge voltage. You can multiply this by the series cell count then run your pack down to that voltage and note the CA Ah reading. This is the actual value for your pack at that point in its life. Depending on the chemistry and your plans for the pack, you may not regularly use the whole Ah rating - for instance LiFePo is usually run down only 80% to extend its life so a 20Ah pack would have only 16Ah of usable capacity. Consult your vendor for discharge recommendations.

 

[izeman]

Thanks a lot for explaining!!
I see what you mean

Is there an accurate equation to find the Ah value?
I was told 20Ah by the seller but would like to verify

maybe i don't understand the question correctly, but i would just ride the bike until the bms cuts off, or whatever device you use to protect your battery (celllogs etc...) and then not down the Ah your ca shows you. this value is the best number you will get as it measured during a regular use of the bike.
imho the Ah input value is just to give YOU a gauge to show how much battery is left.

 

[ebike11]

Thanks a lot for explaining!!
I see what you mean

Is there an accurate equation to find the Ah value?
I was told 20Ah by the seller but would like to verify

maybe i don't understand the question correctly, but i would just ride the bike until the bms cuts off, or whatever device you use to protect your battery (celllogs etc...) and then not down the Ah your ca shows you. this value is the best number you will get as it measured during a regular use of the bike.
imho the Ah input value is just to give YOU a gauge to show how much battery is left.

Oh I have no bms or protection

 

[izeman]

you should always use protection. i can tell you! i got three kids *scnr*

 

[Merlin]

*like

 

[ebike11]

Hi guys
Just test riding my bike and configuring my CA DPS
Sometimes Im getting a flashing "V" when increasing speeds.
Is it warning me about my voltage? The battery is charged 90%

Also with my Cruise setting to 8sec, sometimes my throttle/motor automatically
goes into cruise when I didnt expect it to, at low and medium speeds it kicked in.
Perhaps it has to do with Throttle Input and Output settings??

Thanks!!

 

[Merlin]

What chemistry did you drive?
What is your LVC?

When your tempomat kicks in you have holded your throttle 8sec?

 

[cal3thousand]

Hi guys
Just test riding my bike and configuring my CA DPS
Sometimes Im getting a flashing "V" when increasing speeds.
Is it warning me about my voltage? The battery is charged 90%

Also with my Cruise setting to 8sec, sometimes my throttle/motor automatically
goes into cruise when I didnt expect it to, at low and medium speeds it kicked in.
Perhaps it has to do with Throttle Input and Output settings??

Thanks!!

CA v3? What battery are you using and what setting for the battery in the CA?

 

[ebike11]

Ok Ill change the battery chemistry. It was at LiMn
I was unsure of the type because the battery was bought from
someone. I opened uo the casing and it contains many silver pouches side by side wires together

My Batt> LoV Gain is at "800" ,

 

[izeman]

I have a large screen V2 here, and also a V3...but for this bike I am not using a torque crank...just a throttle and e-brakes , no pas or torque sensor....

Any advantage to using the V3 ?

.) profiles
.) MUCH better amp/power limiting
.) throttle ramping adjustment

 

[NeilP]

Damn ..someone saw my last post and quoted it too

The bike it is going on is actually very low powered..just a little 6 FET lyen controller with a HT motor in 26 inch wheels. it does 35mph ish..but at only 25-30 amp battery 20s1p 8Ah Lipo pack, so no acceleration to speak of.

But if nothing else I'll get to learn the menus of the V3

 

[NeilP]

Resistive divider R1 & R2 values

What are good values for R1 & R2 for a system running at absolute max of 100volt, but usually only. 82 volt?

If I am understanding correctly, on the User guide

Max 10k for R1, makes me think 9.1k and 200k So scaling setting of 25.17v/v would give me the required voltage range, giving a max VBatt of 114

Or am I better off with a lower R1, so 8.2k 180k
Or lower still ... 7.5k / 150k and max VBatt of 105?


Is my thinking correct or have I made some dumb error?

 

[teklektik]

Max 10k for R1, makes me think 9.1k and 200k So scaling setting of 25.17v/v would give me the required voltage range, giving a max VBatt of 114

Or am I better off with a lower R1, so 8.2k 180k
Or lower still ... 7.5k / 150k and max VBatt of 105?

Hey Neil!
I think you have this figured out just fine. The 10K figure is to minimize noise contribution that tends to make the least significant bits jump about a bit (frankly you don't need the full 10bits of accuracy from the A/D converter, but might as well get what we can ).

So - your 9.1K or 8.2K values both are good and are below the 10K limit that might cause jitter in the LSB of the voltage measurement. Pick either or go with the 8.2K if you want a little extra noise immunity from crappy wire routing.

You could go with the 7.5K value to get a Vmax of 105V but that is cutting it close in case of battery over charge, etc. There's no real advantage to getting a super tight fit and there is something to be said for a safety margin in case of missteps (e.g. both the 9.1K and 8.2K solutions give you a 14% margin which is probably a fair safety margin - even 8.2K/200K for a limit of 126v would give good readings).

To put the effect of a 'close fit' to Vmax in better focus, consider that this is a 10 bit ADC so the measurement error will be (+/-) 1/2 the LSB or about 1/2048 ~= 0.05% of Vmax. In the case of a sloppier fit with Vmax = 126V this is only 0.06V - certainly more than acceptable for our purposes.

• BTW - You noted this link:
  

  If I am understanding correctly, on page 33 of the Unofficial User guide
  http://www.cycle-analyst.de/Cycle_Analyst_V3_Prelim5_UNOFFICIAL_USER_GUIDE.pdf

  
  Please do not do this - it hampers other ES readers who follow your link.
  Please link only to the actual Guide distribution post in this thread (not the file).
  
  Reinhard downloads and re-distributes the Guide through his business site in spite of the request not to do so. As a result his posted file is often out of date and folks who download there do not have the most complete and correct version. For instance, I went to page 33 as you indicated - but in the present version (p6-i) - and got a very different topic than the one you were discussing. The actual file link you provided is not even to the version he has posted now and is 6 versions back. Multiple postings on different sites is Not Good.
  
  

 

[ebike11]

Hi
Does anyone know what ThrO > Brake Out does?
I check the guide but cant seem to find it.
Thanks

 

[NeilP]

• BTW - You noted this link:
  

  If I am understanding correctly, on page 33 of the Unofficial User guide USER_GUIDE.pdf

  
  Please do not do this - it hampers other ES readers who follow your link.
  Please link only to the actual Guide distribution post in this thread (not the file).
  

• 
  
  Ah OK, sorry, so many links now, I ended up with multiple windows open , each with multiple tabs. You just end up chasing your tail, this thread despite your efforts to index it really has gone out of control. I am still unsure if I have found out what the current firmware version is or even a link to d/load it. This is the first time I have found time to get back to this bike build with the V 3 for probably over a year. I have removed the link.
  
  While on that note, I think it is high time that the CA V3 had its own sub forum, it is such a complex subject now with so many facets..
  
  
  Thanks for info on divider setup, I'll probably go with whatever I can in relation to what I have in my parts bin. Just wanted to ensure I understood the principle correctly.
  Thanks.
  
  Off to the shed now to install the TDCM torque crank and see what I can find to use as. DC-DC DROPPER to drive the CA. Would rather go with two, one for lights and one for CA, but space may mean only using one.

 

[NeilP]

For those few running the CA off 12V and using a separate battery voltage input like I am (and I think Hjns is?),

Not anymore I am. Some time ago I ran 30S and inquired about the CA accepting that high voltage. Justin answered that the CA can accept that no problem. Therefore, my CAv3 is still hooked on the controller using the DP. Later I moved back to 20S, so no reason to change anything for me.

I did fry a CAv3 when connecting it to the Thun, and then connecting it to the 20S lipo pack. As mentioned several times now in this thread, the CAv3 can not convert that high voltage to power the Thun, therefore, the Thun needs it's own 12V when using more than 10S as battery. I recently sent the fried CAv3 back to Adam at Grin under RMA. Fortunately, my other CAv3 is working quite well. Keeps my cromotor from overheating when climbing Swiss hills.

So what is better? when running a Torque crank (TDCM) ?
run the CAv3 off a 12 volt supply and use the resistive divider for battery monitor via Vex and the TDCM from the CA

or

Run the CA from the 24 series pack and run the TDCm on a separate supply.

or is there no real difference?

 

[NeilP]

Hi
Does anyone know what ThrO > Brake Out does?
I check the guide but cant seem to find it.
Thanks

From my reading of the guide...get the latest from the link posted above...section 5.3eBrakes

it is the setting that sets the throttle output when the EBK pad (the e-brake pad) is grounded..IE when the brakes are activated
So if for some reason you wanted the throttle to have some voltage on it even with the e-brake activated..this is where you would do it. This appears to be for use with people running electronic speed controllers that create a fault when throttle signal goes to zero. ...quote form the guide..

Some ESCs fault when the pulse width goes to zero so in those cases ThrO->BrakeOut can be set to a low non-zero value that is compatible with the particular ESC.