Cyclone 1000 (3000) Watt motor as "Mid Drive"

[LI-ghtcycle]

Hello, I am trying to find more info, and it's not very easy so far, several searches, but few details, I am thinking of getting what might be the "ideal" cyclone motor for powering my "mid drive" where I have a motor mounted either in the front frame triangle or rear rack, running a single speed chain to my Nuvinci hub, and it would seem that there is a "1000 Watt" motor that might also be the "3000 Watt" motor with just a different controller:

I am looking at this motor and it would appear that it is a DD, no planetary gear box on the end like most cyclone motors, and would possibly be a good low KV motor that would run slow enough to be around hub motor speeds, but that's not a deal breaker, I can always play with gearing for more or less reduction.

Is this a hall sensored motor? Sensorless? I would most likely get one of these motors alone if possible, and get the appropriate Lyen controller to go with it, and I would want regen as well, so am I wondering if this sounds feasible?

Thanks!

 

[neptronix]

Hmm.. what happened to running a hub motor? your DD motor can take 2000w or more. And it already has the ability to bolt sprockets on to it and such.

The cyclone motors are known to be noisy as hell by the way. eZip brushed noisy O_O

 

[LegendLength]

I am looking at this motor and it would appear that it is a DD, no planetary gear box on the end like most cyclone motors, and would possibly be a good low KV motor that would run slow enough to be around hub motor speeds

The cyclone site is a bit frustrating. On the main page they give specs of that motor as "Max current 60A, 3600RPM, Torque 98kg.cm max . output 2400W" but then on the 'motors' page they say it's "Max speed 3223Rpm, Rated speed 4111Rpm, Rated output 1500W". Strange also that the max speed is lower than the rated speed. But assuming the first figures I'm guessing that would mean its kV = 3600 rpm / 48 V = 75 kV? I'm not sure if I can calculate that properly.

It seems like it would be well suited to direct drive the nuvinci. Nuvinci reduces by a factor of 2 and it looks like an 11 tooth sprocket on the motor. The nuvinci on cyclone's site has a 44T sprocket so your reduction would be 4:1 from motor to wheel then 2:1 from wheel to nuvinci which is 8:1 . That would be 180 rpm at the motor which is 22 km/h or 14 mph, in the lowest gear.

The nuvinci ranges from 0.5 to 2.0 gear ratio (from memory) so highest gear would be 88 km/h (no load, no wind). It sounds like a good speed range.

But if you are buying just the motor, which doesn't seem to be listed by itself on cyclone.tw site, maybe it would be better to go something like the astro 3220 which weighs 1 kg / 2 pounds instead of 5.5 kg / 11 pounds for the cyclone. Although the astro would cost alot more at 600 USD. And that doesn't include the cost of mounting the sprocket etc..

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

The main reason I am using the DD hub, atm, is it's a known quantity, I can easily gear it to the range I prefer, but it's bulky and awkward, takes up more space than I would like.

I'm just looking at all the options, the only reason I'm not using a RC motor is because where I will use a motor on this build most, is where an RC motor isn't happy, at low speeds, high torque. Sure I could use enough reduction to try and keep a RC motor happy, but if you want a Mac Truck, would you put a small supercharged 4cyl engine in it just because you could modify it to work, or would you use the nominal straight 6 cyl. diesel engine?

Since my goal is low end torque and reliability, I'm just looking at what's out there. Don't get me wrong, I think the DD hub motor will work, just that it's not idea to have it as a "mid drive" motor because of it's bulk.

I'm interested to see also what John in CR comes up with as he is looking at a motor with similar characteristics to fill the gap between RC and hub motors.

I would temped to try just a smaller hub motor, but then I loose all the advantages of the one I have (heat shedding, low maintenance, good track record) if I go with something in a geared variety, not that there aren't good geared motors, but compared to a 9C 9 x 7, I haven't seen a more prolific and proven E-Bike motor (except the 530X series X-light motors, but those aren't used at the speeds I am wanting, they are mainly the "big block" power houses for high speed, not used for efficiency as much as raw power and ability to take abuse) AND I happen to have one already I can test with! :wink:

 

[dumbass]

Hmm.. what happened to running a hub motor? your DD motor can take 2000w or more. And it already has the ability to bolt sprockets on to it and such.

The cyclone motors are known to be noisy as hell by the way. eZip brushed noisy O_O

While small Cyclone motors can be noisy they are not as noisy as an EZip setup. I know I have both setups. The noise comes from the gearhead and not the motor. The motor in question is not equiped with a gearhead and therefore, should not be any noisier then any other motor. However, Cyclone motors also get a bad noise rap because they product high RPMs and try to minimize this problem by using that stupid small drive gear that makes more noise then the gearhead does. But if properly setup with larger sprocket this motor should be no more noisy then any other motor.

This all being said someone was selling one of these complete motor setups about a month ago. The motor was claimed to have only a few miles on it.

Bottom line if your going to go through all the BS of using a Cycloe why not go wit ha good RC motor?

BTW, watch the HP you put into that Nuvinci hub.
Bob

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Hmm.. what happened to running a hub motor? your DD motor can take 2000w or more. And it already has the ability to bolt sprockets on to it and such.

The cyclone motors are known to be noisy as hell by the way. eZip brushed noisy O_O

While small Cyclone motors can be noisy they are not as noisy as an EZip setup. I know I have both setups. The noise comes from the gearhead and not the motor. The motor in question is not equiped with a gearhead and therefore, should not be any noisier then any other motor. However, Cyclone motors also get a bad noise rap because they product high RPMs and try to minimize this problem by using that stupid small drive gear that makes more noise then the gearhead does. But if properly setup with larger sprocket this motor should be no more noisy then any other motor.

This all being said someone was selling one of these complete motor setups about a month ago. The motor was claimed to have only a few miles on it.

Bottom line if your going to go through all the BS of using a Cycloe why not go wit ha good RC motor?

BTW, watch the HP you put into that Nuvinci hub.
Bob

No worries on the HP, I won't be coming close to anything more than 3HP, and there are some finding it just starting to slip at 9HP, the motor I am contemplating is hard to judge since I can't seem to find information on it's RPM's, and I agree, the 6T gear is pretty silly, I would want to run something much closer to a standard bike sprocket.

That being said, it would appear that this motor is running pretty fast, and would require much more reduction, so it might not be such a good idea anyway. :?

 

[jag]

That being said, it would appear that this motor is running pretty fast, and would require much more reduction

I clocked the cyclone 1000W motors to 4000rpm unloaded at 48V, so design gearing for maybe 3000-3500 loaded rpm. You would need more reduction than using a hub motor to power a mid drive, but less than for say an Astro (rated power for the Astro's is usually achieved at 7500rpm)

The motor itself is very quiet even at high rpm (my cyclone is quieter at 400rpm than my 9C at 400rpm), but a small sprocket (say a 6 to 60 tooth with bike chain for 10:1 gearing) is sure to make a racket. Belts or smaller pitch chain would be quieter.

The DD cyclone's do not work optimallyin the "through the gears" drive setups shown on cyclone taiwan's home page (wisely cyclone-usa seem not to adverize them like that). They need more reduction than that. A separate "left side drive seems more logical.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

That being said, it would appear that this motor is running pretty fast, and would require much more reduction

I clocked the cyclone 1000W motors to 4000rpm unloaded at 48V, so design gearing for maybe 3000-3500 loaded rpm. You would need more reduction than using a hub motor to power a mid drive, but less than for say an Astro (rated power for the Astro's is usually achieved at 7500rpm)

The motor itself is very quiet even at high rpm (my cyclone is quieter at 400rpm than my 9C at 400rpm), but a small sprocket (say a 6 to 60 tooth with bike chain for 10:1 gearing) is sure to make a racket. Belts or smaller pitch chain would be quieter.

The DD cyclone's do not work optimallyin the "through the gears" drive setups shown on cyclone taiwan's home page (wisely cyclone-usa seem not to adverize them like that). They need more reduction than that. A separate "left side drive seems more logical.

Thank you Jag, it would seem to make something like a 9T to 144T #25 chain would be required at that kind of RPM, however, it wouldn't be bad, just require more specialized parts. I am curious how wide this motor is, would it fit in between cranks if installed in the front frame triangle?

 

[dumbass]

Doesn't the Cyclone motor use a special controller? I know the small one have the built in controller in the back of the motor. But I thought I read that the others also required a Cyclone controller for some reason. Just thinking of the future if it needs replacement.

Jag, What kind of eff do you get from that motor running 48v?

Bob

 

[jag]

Thank you Jag, it would seem to make something like a 9T to 144T #25 chain would be required at that kind of RPM, however, it wouldn't be bad, just require more specialized parts.

Could also use a belt for quiet operation. For moderate power levels maybe a 28:272 using the 272 GEBE rear pulley and a HTD belt.

I am curious how wide this motor is, would it fit in between cranks if installed in the front frame triangle?

My motor body measures 130mm. Axle is 40mm (can easily be cut shorter). On the other side is a 20mm protrusion with the hall sensors. This might also be slimmed a bit. Still it is too wide to be inside the circle swept by (standard) cranks.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Thank you Jag, it would seem to make something like a 9T to 144T #25 chain would be required at that kind of RPM, however, it wouldn't be bad, just require more specialized parts.

Could also use a belt for quiet operation. For moderate power levels maybe a 28:272 using the 272 GEBE rear pulley and a HTD belt.

I am curious how wide this motor is, would it fit in between cranks if installed in the front frame triangle?

My motor body measures 130mm. Axle is 40mm (can easily be cut shorter). On the other side is a 20mm protrusion with the hall sensors. This might also be slimmed a bit. Still it is too wide to be inside the circle swept by (standard) cranks.

Kewl, I could still mount it on the rear rack with out taking up as much space. How easy would it be to purchase one of these motors separately? I wouldn't want the whole kit, just the motor, but I don't see anywhere on the site where you can get motor alone?

 

[NeilP]

I see figures for the cyclone max rpm, for the motor, of figures around 4500 rpm..
but what is the 'sweet spot' rpm for these motors when you are riding?
I cant see that you are keeping it up at 3-4000 rpm all the time are you?