Cyclone 3k and KT 60A Controller with LCD8S Problem

[dulring]

Upgrading stock 40A Cyclone controller with a KT36/48ZWSHKT-NP01X Controller and KT LCD8S Display from the below link. Using a 48v 12ah battery. The original motor, controller, throttle, battery have worked for years although I don't ride that much.

Started by just matching colors of phase, hall sensor, and throttle wires and immediately ran into issues. The display first errored on the throttle and figured that three wire difference out fairly quickly. Oh, and no manual or wiring diagram for the new KT Controller. Have asked from seller and KT with no response. Now I get a Motor Position Fault. I have been researching for a few days and found several articles on how to wire and determine what wires provide what functions. Unfortunately nothing has worked. I have even opened old and new controllers to try and determine what wires should be connected and I think I am getting closer but just need a little more help. I have attached pics of the new controller and old controller diagram. Current wiring that results in a motor position fault error when a touch of throttle is applied.

Motor Controller
Phase - Matching up A,B,C designations on Circuit Boards
Green Blue
Yellow Green
Blue Yellow

Hall Sensor - Followed same color scheme
Green Blue
Yellow Green
Blue Yellow
Black Black
Red White - Or does this need to be Red to Battery +. When disconnected and controller powered up, Red measured 4.2v and White 4.8v. White on the controller board does say x5 vs Red says hv
Do I need Battery + into the controller on Red? Old controller required it but no labels or docs on this controller.

If anyone has any experience with Cyclone 3k's and KT Controllers I would appreciate any and all suggestions.










Controller and Display
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/225...!12000027411931223!im&gatewayAdapt=4itemAdapt

 

[E-HP]

Upgrading stock 40A Cyclone controller with a KT36/48ZWSHKT-NP01X Controller and KT LCD8S Display from the below link. Using a 48v 12ah battery.
Controller and Display
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/225...!12000027411931223!im&gatewayAdapt=4itemAdapt

It looks more like a controller downgrade, since the old controller is 40A continuous and the new one is 30A continuous. Or do you mean upgrading features?

 

[dulring]

I am not sure what the old controller ratings were for continuous vs peak, but yes, adding a display was a big part of the plan. The new controller does have 18 larger FETS than the 12 of the original controller. I am guessing that is a good indicator it can handle more current?

 

[TommyCat]

Hall Sensor - Followed same color scheme
Green Blue
Yellow Green
Blue Yellow
Black Black
Red White - Or does this need to be Red to Battery +. When disconnected and controller powered up, Red measured 4.2v and White 4.8v. White on the controller board does say x5 vs Red says hv
Do I need Battery + into the controller on Red? Old controller required it but no labels or docs on this controller.

Please DO NOT do this! (highlighted text)

Your RED motor hall sensor connection wire should go to the hv (hall voltage) terminal on the board. Typically, the hall sensor supply voltage is 5 or 12 vdc, with hall sensors having a maximum operating voltage of 24vdc...


Regards,
T.C.

 

[dulring]

Thanks for the heads up. I am making progress!!! I found that I had a bad connection on the power and possibly ground on the hall sensor lines. They were temporary and apparently not solid enough. Anyway, once I double checked all the lines in the setup, I no longer get the motor position sensor fault, but still get no movement on the motor. I tried walking mode and short small bursts of throttle. The display recognizes the throttle movement, but again, no motor movement. Any suggestions from here? Is it possible that my small jumpers can't carry enough current to start the motor? I am just using small alligator clips for testing. I would think if it were really trying to push current the wires would at least heat up, right?

I started looking at parameters in the display and changed the C2 value to 0. I could have sworn it was 8, but it made no difference. It is strange though as I can only set it to 0 and 1 now. I thought the range was 0-7? The manual for this display is a simple two pager. Just going off the LCD3 manual for parameters and values. Any other values seem incorrect?



I have also verified I am still getting +5 v from the red hall sensor line. Is there a way to test the hall sensor in the motor? The resistance values are all consistent between the phase lines and not shorted across the power lines but not sure what those values should be or if it is a valid test. Again, thanks for all the help.

 

[E-HP]

I have also verified I am still getting +5 v from the red hall sensor line. Is there a way to test the hall sensor in the motor? The resistance values are all consistent between the phase lines and not shorted across the power lines but not sure what those values should be or if it is a valid test. Again, thanks for all the help.

Seems like you may have the wrong hall sensor wire/phase wire combination. You can't rely on colors to get the combo right, and there are a lot of combinations. The flow chart below is meant to reduce the number of combos you need to test, since you eliminate many based on the motor's behavior.

This the best and most comprehensive articles on testing the hall sensors and the motor and for troubleshooting. I don't know if it's in one of the stickies, but I added it to my bookmarks:
https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/golden-motor-magic-pie/110168-testing-bldc-motor-s-phase-wiring-hall-sensors-and-wiring

 

[dulring]

Thank you for the response. I have seen that chart and can never get past step two as the motor is still "Stuck" or won't move when phase wires are switched. I did this time threw see a link I overlooked the first time on what the voltage values should be on the hall sensor phase wires when connected to the controller. So I did that real quick and I think it is bad news. Blue and Green test good, ie bounce between 0 and 5 volts when rotating the motor slowly backward. Unfortunately Yellow stays at 5 volts Given this is a mid-drive vs hub motor, is there any reason not to believe I have a bad hall sensor vs a wiring issue? If it is a sensor, do I need to pull it apart and find the part number or are all Cyclone 3000's the same and use the Honeywell SS41F?

 

[E-HP]

Thank you for the response. I have seen that chart and can never get past step two as the motor is still "Stuck" or won't move when phase wires are switched. I did this time threw see a link I overlooked the first time on what the voltage values should be on the hall sensor phase wires when connected to the controller. So I did that real quick and I think it is bad news. Blue and Green test good, ie bounce between 0 and 5 volts when rotating the motor slowly backward. Unfortunately Yellow stays at 5 volts Given this is a mid-drive vs hub motor, is there any reason not to believe I have a bad hall sensor vs a wiring issue? If it is a sensor, do I need to pull it apart and find the part number or are all Cyclone 3000's the same and use the Honeywell SS41F?

Forum to the rescue https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1400#p1224666

 

[dulring]

Awesome. Thanks for the guidance. I would have never have found that in a 144 page topic, lol

I also found this video series on YouTube for taking it apart and sensor replacement. Funny, same yellow wire sensor went bad like mine.

https://youtu.be/zy3G_BO_S68
https://youtu.be/ZHXAvG1gNQg
https://youtu.be/KVP-q6yU1ZE
https://youtu.be/olrOSDGjPeo
https://youtu.be/2IJ_qxZUc6M

Sensors ordered.

 

[Ins0mniac]

Please don't mess with the hall sensors. I have read somewhere that most people do them unnecessarily and it is rarely the cause of these kinds of issues.

This motor and controller combo is unique. The hall sensor wire colors don't line up with the phase wires, the yellow and blue hall sensor wires had to be switched around for this to work, and they didn't match the original hall phase wiring color switching either. This is just an issue with the way the cyclone motor colors are originally, at least in my case.

Lucky for you I just finished struggling with this over a month ago :wink:

Here was my solution. I have the following controller:

Model: KT36/48ZWSRKD-NBP01X
Rated voltage: DC36v/48v
Rated current: 30A
Low voltage protection: DC30/40(+/-)0.5v
Maximum current: 60(+/-)2A
Speed set: 1-4,2v
Brake input: low-level

So after much struggle with the above linked chart, and disassembling both the stock and new KT controller I found this combo worked wonders:

Phase wires:

Controller Blue to motor Yellow
Controller Green to motor Blue
Controller Yellow to motor Green

Hall sensor wiring:
___________________
|                                |
|Empty           Blue|
|Black             Red|}}}}
|Yellow        Green|
|__________________|

For above diagram, the connector is:
Controller Blue to motor Yellow
Controller Green to motor Green
Controller Yellow to motor Blue

Please let me know if this helps.

Also, if you would be interested in collaborating in the future on making this LCD8S work with a torque BB and the open source firmware + making this controller into a FOC with the ACS add-on I would be very grateful. We are in the same boat