"Da bomb" cargo bike + Transmag 3kW / MAC 2kW / HS3548

Pushing them big watts, now eh! It does look like a lot of power is going into heat, judging by the acceleration on your left speedo. But I guess it's not a fair comparison to my 20lb road bike. I want to start taking video but don't want to pay for a gopro.


Your magic pie video with your gf filming was funny. That does have some acceleration!
 
The watt consumption is rather high, but keep in mind that my cycle analyst is way off. The rider position is upright.. the tires are ultra wide.. the frame just by itself is 16lb.. and i've got a fast winding motor.. just a bad combination. If the power usage was really >5000w continuous at the 45mph i was really going, the motor woulda been a bubbling puddle of molten copper :lol:

The bike is pretty thunderous to accelerate up to about 20mph now - just the kind of grit your teeth, don't make any sudden movements, tingle of adrenaline kind of acceleration. Keep in mind that i weigh 250lb, so if you twisted the throttle on this thing, you might end up creating a sonic boom. ebike videos always make the bike out to look slower than it actually is. That being said, if anyone is passing by salt lake city, come by and give this bike a twist and you'll see what i mean by thunder power!

but..but... it's not fast enough! now i feel like i need double the power... removing the worry of doing wheelies has really brought out the power addict in me!
 
you should have install CroMotor, it will blow HS3548 easily and I mean CroMotor is madly beast! :D :D

I am not sure if your cargo bike rear using 135mm wide or 150mm? I hoped your cargo has 150mm wide so you can mount CroMotor
and run 30S battery pack. Plenty room on your cargo bike.

Im tempting buy this cargo bike similar yours in blue color and I am going sell my Yuba Mundo soon.
 
Hey there; this bike has ~138mm dropouts, but being cromoly, it should fit 150mm OK with some stretching.
Yeah, i'd like to run something much much more powerful in the future.

I don't recommend this frame at all, and i'll tell you right now why..

+ The tapered design of the rear creates all sorts of problems; many chain idlers in the middle of the bike cannot be mounted properly, or work correct. I have yet to come up with a proper setup, so i've gone single speed as of yesterday.
+ Nothing on the frame facilitates actually carrying stuff. The tapered design works against you if you wanted to put a pannier on the rear. You have to basically strap stuff to the sides.
+ The frame is just too long. There is almost a foot of wasted space behind the seat..

535_orange_1.jpg


+ Rear sprocket chain drive is almost impossible to do. This frame is designed for the gas engine and staton gearbox, nothing else. The tapered rear means that if your sprockets aren't sized almost exactly as the design calls for, your chain will run into various bars on the frame.. :(
+ Rear dropouts are not designed too well. When you shift into the smallest rear gear, you will grind the bike chain into the frame. You have to put spacers in to prevent this and your axle has to be 100% dead on. I had to disassemble my rear wheel and correct 1.5mm of offset :|
+ Even with an idler, the chain has a tendency to rest on the frame. You can see this problem on their site, actually..

535_IMG00095-20101221-1109.jpg


+ No rear disc brake mounting posts... i guess that's okay if you have regen, but that sucks.

Okay, now i have to say something positive. The frame looks/feels bulletproof at high speed. The triangle is large. Despite the length of the frame, there is basically no flex/wobble in it. The bike can run smaller wheels because the bottom bracket is kinda high up. Bottom bracket to seatpost height is something like 20", which is good for taller riders like me.

I'd take a yuba mundo, juicedriders ODK, or xtracycle edgerunner over this bike! Wanna trade? :p :lol:

chroot said:
you should have install CroMotor, it will blow HS3548 easily and I mean CroMotor is madly beast! :D :D

I am not sure if your cargo bike rear using 135mm wide or 150mm? I hoped your cargo has 150mm wide so you can mount CroMotor
and run 30S battery pack. Plenty room on your cargo bike.

Im tempting buy this cargo bike similar yours in blue color and I am going sell my Yuba Mundo soon.
Click to expand...
 
Wow I just now noticed that tapered top.. I was even looking at it when I asked you about carrying things.

Yea my yuba is nice and wide from the front to the back.. I have a 30 inch toolbox mounted to it as my
battery holder and it works awesome.. lets me buy the side bags and doesnt eat up any of my space.. along
with keeping the load nice and centered.

it is a nice looking bike , but it just really sucks it's designed with ice in mind only.. be easy to try and make
it work for both id think.. hopefully future revisions.
 
the bottom is tapered too, which creates problems all it's own.
I did suggest revisions to the frame creator, but i think he might be interested in doing things his way ( maybe realistically there is a bigger market for this kinda thing in the gas world, i dunno... )

I like to support the small guy / underdog, so i hope he makes some revisions eventually.

Oh, and i found out where some of my watts were going :lol:

whoops.jpg


One of the phase wires was mostly unplugged :lol: :oops: .. plugged it in all the way today and there was certainly a difference in power. Acceleration is now good up to about 37-40mph. But if i haul along at 35-40 for a long period of time, the motor does get warm-hot, and so do all the wires leading to it as well as they're undersized for the job, so i'll need to upgrade to 8 gauge soon. I also need a torque plate as the axle is starting to rotate - damn, i thought that these dropouts would handle the abuse, but apparently that is not the case. 8C discharge on these ~2.5 year old lipos is really hard on them too, i've seen my 76v ( 20s ) pack sag 4 volts on 80A discharge. Some of that voltage sag is going to be wire loss though.

Another thing of note is that the 12FET has stood up to me riding this thing like a motorcycle at 30-45mph. Very impressed that it hasn't gone belly up yet.

OK, so this motor-controller setup is pretty good. It's got the thunderous power of my magic pie now :mrgreen: maybe with an 18FET and some real torque plates, it can push more.

I will post another video later when this upgrade occurs.
 
Cool! the new sprocket and top hat adapter from kingssalesandservice arrived today.

newsprocket.jpg


Now i can get back to work on setting up the dual reduction drive for the MAC motor.

dabomb_torqueplates.jpg


Made some big torque plates for this frame, as the HS3548 had managed to literally spread that thick cromo and start to round out the axle a little bit too.

Double the steel holdin' the axle oughta do.... i hope... lol.
 
zaprod_1.jpg


On a kinda unrelated note..

Picked this frame up for free at the local bike shop because they couldn't get the seat post out :lol: old shiny chromoly frame from prolly the 1980's.. I also have a shiny girvin fork which i figure was a perfect fit.. I think i am going to build the rat rod type bike that i've been thinking since last year, as basically an electric version of a gas cruiser - all sorts of nasty looking industrial electronics.

I want the power to be controlled by PAS only, and there to be no bike chain, derailleur, etc. If i can figure out how to set up PAS with an RC motor, that would be sweet because it would not only be unique to operate, but nasty sounding.

After this build is completed..
 
You wouldn't want my Yuba Mundo seriously, Why? There is little damaged on my Yuba's cargo rail from the headway fire incident.

I looked and it is going be major work restoration and powder paint to make it look brand new. Yuba uses the alumnium construction.

neptronix said:
I'd take a yuba mundo, juicedriders ODK, or xtracycle edgerunner over this bike! Wanna trade? :p :lol:
Click to expand...
 
chroot said:
You wouldn't want my Yuba Mundo seriously, Why? There is little damaged on my Yuba's cargo rail from the headway fire incident.

I looked and it is going be major work restoration and powder paint to make it look brand new. Yuba uses the alumnium construction.
Click to expand...

Yuba is hi-tensile steel
http://yubaride.com/Pdfs/mundospecs2011.pdf

Easily welded for repair or modification.
 
Sounds like it would need less modification than my bike... :mrgreen: :lol: :lol:

Anyway, i went to bolt the top hat adapter to the sprocket.
Hmm, 8mm bolts are too loose, that's odd.... ( one the site they say 8mm bolts are the correct ones.. )
5/16 is smaller..
3/8ths is too big..
No such thing as 9mm..

Damnit, the internal diameter for bolting this thing up is 8.5mm. So there will be play in it forever. :evil:
God damnit kingssalesandsprockets, you've boned me AGAIN.

http://www.ffrtrikes.com/Chainring-Adapter-130mm-BCD-p/11chainringadapter.htm

Should have just bought this. But the price made me choke.

Now maybe, just maybe i can drill these holes out to 3/8", if i am lucky ( since i have no drill press )..

What a fraggin' nightmare! every step of this process has been a pain in the ass! Auraslip was right!

Took me about 2-3 hours to make the torque plates and get the hub motor running. Shoulda just bought a cromotor at this point.

I will make this work one day, if it kills me.
 
Bolts are not for indexing! They are only for fastening. 0.5mm clearance on an 8mm fastener sounds about right to me.

If you need the patterns to center up, install all the fasteners almost but not quite snug, and then twist one part against the other. They will center to each other. Then tighten.
 
Chalo said:
Bolts are not for indexing! They are only for fastening. 0.5mm clearance on an 8mm fastener sounds about right to me.

If you need the patterns to center up, install all the fasteners almost but not quite snug, and then twist one part against the other. They will center to each other. Then tighten.
Click to expand...

Chalo, given that this will take >100ft-lb spikes ( and will do regen, thus it will spin forwards and backwards ), i do doubt the fastening around the edges of the bolt and nut will hold this for long. The amount of area that a bolt can grip the edges of the sprocket and adapter is small. I am also dealing with steel bolts on aluminum and the metals are going to expand/contract differently - so that is more likely to make them loose. I'm not sure where the hell i would find aluminum bolts.

Now i'm thinking that maybe i can shim this with some thin strips of metal ( like some thread repair strips ) and maybe it'll hold long term.

This would be a lot easier if i had a gasoline engine powerband, IE all my torque at high RPMs and not when everything is at 0rpm! I've noticed that stuff designed for gasoline bikes is basically useless as it's not designed to take the sudden shocks of power.

For example, this 'manic mechanic' sprocket adapter, which basically clamps around the bike's hub..

Adapter2.jpg


:lol: Yeah that would be slipping and tearing out spokes pretty quick on a high power setup...

Or the classic rag joint used for motorized bikes:

p1130585.jpg


:lol: also a great way to go through all your spokes from a stall.
 
I looked the PDF and it says 4.3 version of Yuba, My Yuba isnt 4.3 and Cant find the version my Yuba frame.

voicecoils said:
chroot said:
You wouldn't want my Yuba Mundo seriously, Why? There is little damaged on my Yuba's cargo rail from the headway fire incident.

I looked and it is going be major work restoration and powder paint to make it look brand new. Yuba uses the alumnium construction.
Click to expand...

Yuba is hi-tensile steel
http://yubaride.com/Pdfs/mundospecs2011.pdf

Easily welded for repair or modification.
Click to expand...
 
You will be fine with the aluminium sprocket with the steel bolts-nuts. My Suzuki GSXR750R mods, the rear sprocket is aluminium-steel bolts-nuts, I abused it super hard acceleration, lot of wheelie and max speed 173mph.

Basically the aluminium sprocket will wore out faster. That's all


neptronix said:
I am also dealing with steel bolts on aluminum and the metals are going to expand/contract differently - so that is more likely to make them loose. I'm not sure where the hell i would find aluminum bolts.
Click to expand...
 
Ah, you didn't read all of what i wrote. The problem is that there's 0.5mm of free play in the bolt holes. Chalo said i should rely on the tension on the nut and bolt to keep the sprocket secured to the adapter.

Tension of a bolt is a bad way to hold a lot of torque. That's like depending on your hub motor bolts to secure our hub motors and prevent the axles from rounding out, rather than using torque arms. Two different metals that expand and contract at different rates/times makes the situation worse!
 
neptronix said:
Ah, you didn't read all of what i wrote. The problem is that there's 0.5mm of free play in the bolt holes. Chalo said i should rely on the tension on the nut and bolt to keep the sprocket secured to the adapter.

Tension of a bolt is a bad way to hold a lot of torque. That's like depending on your hub motor bolts to secure our hub motors and prevent the axles from rounding out, rather than using torque arms. Two different metals that expand and contract at different rates/times makes the situation worse!
Click to expand...

I think there is a solution that won't require any exotic aluminum bolts: it occurs to me that on car rims - whether aluminum, other alloys, or just steel, the wheel is held on with lugnuts that have a hemispherical face. It's both self-centering AND load-bearing, working both in tension and in shear. You could achieve this effect by countersinking the holes and using stainless steel high-grade countersunk bolts. You'll still have some differential thermal properties between the two materials, but you've got far more mating surface of the bolts to the sprocket to counter the problem.
 
neptronix said:
Ah, you didn't read all of what i wrote. The problem is that there's 0.5mm of free play in the bolt holes. Chalo said i should rely on the tension on the nut and bolt to keep the sprocket secured to the adapter.

Tension of a bolt is a bad way to hold a lot of torque. That's like depending on your hub motor bolts to secure our hub motors and prevent the axles from rounding out, rather than using torque arms. Two different metals that expand and contract at different rates/times makes the situation worse!
Click to expand...

Where did you learn this stuff??? Tension of a bolt is the only way to use a bolt. A bolt's shearing force is wayyyy smaller than the force it can exert under tension. You want to use all the surface area of the sprocket and adapter getting squeezed together by the bolts to keep them secured to each other. And the two different metals thing is a non concern. Just proceed normally with the 8mm screws like the manufacturer recommended. Add some loctite if you're that worried...
 
Right.

Consider this: The disc brake you might use to stand your bike on its nose is held to the wheel by six little 5mm screws passing through loose-fitting holes only 2mm deep. Has this system proved to be problematic? It has not.

If it works for disc brakes, it will work for sprocket mounting. You only have as much maximum torque as you have wheel traction. Plus, the tire serves as a damper to attenuate transient torque peaks.
 
jkbrigman: that's a superb idea and i see what you're talking about. But i can only taper one side, not the other. Also, a car wheel has an axle hooked up to it which transmits all the torque to the wheel. The car's hub usually has these bolt threads sticking out of it too. I don't have that advantage here.

Chalo said:
Right.

Consider this: The disc brake you might use to stand your bike on its nose is held to the wheel by six little 5mm screws passing through loose-fitting holes only 2mm deep. Has this system proved to be problematic? It has not.

If it works for disc brakes, it will work for sprocket mounting. You only have as much maximum torque as you have wheel traction. Plus, the tire serves as a damper to attenuate transient torque peaks.
Click to expand...

Yes, but if i loosened my disc brake holes, it wouldn't rock left-to right like this. The disc brake also has a pretty solid rear backing from the disc brake hub. It also doesn't recieve torque in 2 different directions. I don't have those advantages here.
With the top hat adapter, i don't have a lot of space for the bolt face to contact the sprocket and top hat adapter.

I could be overestimating the need for bolt tension to hold this thing together. I'm disturbed that the shaft of the bolt basically does nothing to secure the torque. I'll let you know why i'm playing it cautious; there's literally no extra room for the chain on the bike in the first place. So if this sprocket ever develops a minor wobble, that chain will grind into the frame as there is just going to be a millimeter or two of clearance without wobble. This bike is for >100 mile journeys and is so long that it won't fit in anything less than a truck if i break down. Every part has to be totally dead on & reliable.
 
Ah, the situation is worse than i thought. I am not sure how to correctly index the bolt holes. They do not index whatsoever, so it would be difficult to get this sprocket dead on without any wobble.

I have made a video describing the problem, and sent him an email. Let's see what happens. Otherwise i am thinking about going the drill press route, and to index it, i can always superglue it in place, then drill, i guess.

[youtube]_VSBb2FZ9FI[/youtube]
 
The disc brake rotor mount has the relative disadvantages of small fastener size, aluminum mounting threads, and shallow depth of both the rotor holes and the stretched portion of the fasteners. Yet it works fine. The torque spec on those little bolts isn't even that high-- like 6Nm.

Don't use chainring bolts and nuts-- those are technically "sex screws" designed to fit snug 10mm holes. Do use fine thread fasteners if you can get them. 5/16"-24 and M8x1.0 are equivalent (but not interchangeable).

You could ream the holes to true 3/8" and use shoulder screws (stripper bolts), but then you'd be trading off clamping force and fastener stretch to get shear pins. That's a wash at best IMO. I don't think you appreciate how secure a properly torqued fastener is when used appropriately, let alone a whole pattern of them.

Shoulder-Stripper%20Bolt.jpg


3/8" shoulder screws have 5/16"-18 threads on them. Make sure the shoulder is a little less than the clamped thickness, using a washer to add thickness if necessary.

Anyway, if you are counting on a threaded bolt to transmit reversing torque, and it slops back and forth, the steel thread will chew a generous clearance into even a close-fitted aluminum hole anyway. That's just not how these things work in practice (unless you fail to tighten them).
 
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