Deal on a gearbox.

boostjuice said:
...If making your own gearbox Mitre gears are much cheaper to buy than hypoid and bevel-helical gearsets because machining them is much more straightforward. However i agree an off the shelf consumer item with a usable gearset in it would be heaven. As you say im sure they are out their but finding them.......

3 words, angle grinder gearbox. 2 primary drawbacks are left side drive required and no regen, both due to the one way direction of the beveled helical gears. These are mass produced and due to their harsh and dangerous intended usage have to be designed extremely tough.

John
 
I spoke with my good friend last evening and talked with him about e-bicycle and the rc motors. The gear reduction was mentioned i bought up angle grinder as a means to obtain this, he is an electrician and did some years in a large workshop repairing/maintaining tools/equipment and the like. He said that he got many many mistreated angle grinders in, the angle grinders using Die cast gear box faired badly and often saw stripped gearing. I wonder if they would be upto the forces from high powered motor turning large wheels?

p.s the angle grinder he saw stripped gears on where the smaller angle grinder i think 4inch they call them? not the large ones that you use both hands to operate. These maybe have stronger gearing?
 
Helical bevel gears including hypoids have even greater lubrication needs than right angle spur gears. They're a hybrid of worm gears and spur gears. The gear faces actually slide against one another like worm gearing. That helical gearbox in the photo might be fine for a hobby helicopter, to fly it for entertainment, but it won't last long in any sort of vehicle for transportation.

Even though I love to look to new ways of applying existing ideas, it usually helps to look very closely at the designers intentions and try as much as possible to respect them. Hand power-tools such as drills and angle grinders put a very high premium on power, portability, and cost savings. Two compromises made to achieve this are to use extremely high speed input (brushed motors that generate peak torque when screaming such as your vacuum cleaner) and by using gear reductions that, while robust enough for adequate power, are still classified for "intermittant" rather then "continuous" use.

A lot of industrial stuff is so rated, particularly motors; either capable of operating all day long in a factory, literally 24/7, or only for short bursts of no more than a couple of minutes at most. The former will, in the case of gearing, usually have extremely rigid support of shafts and bearings via cast iron housings providing minimal deflection in the bearing seats and from the EXACT intermesh of the gear faces as was originally designed, maximum damping of harmonics/vibration, and serviceable oil baths. Hand tools use light aluminum housings and thermally stable grease. The housings are generally ungasketed and sealed only enough to keep contamination out, and heavy grease in. Most hand tools are essentially disposable machines, despite the odd milwaukee hole borer your grandpa lovingly passed down to your dad. Motorcycle and automotive transmissions are classed somewhat in between.

Part of the history of machine lubrication is actually interesting. Well into the last century methods of mass production didn't yet exist, but engineers made pretty remarkable progress on one-off machinery none the less. It was prohibitively expensive to build something as extravagant as a sealed case around your entire gear, transmission, valve train, etc to hold an oil bath when after all you could just hire some guy (or even child) a nickle a day as an "oiler" to scamp about the ship or the factory all day with a can to keep everything lubed. Clambering over, under, and even within the spinning works, this is probably where the expression "grease monkey" originated (and is still a perjorative for the lowest paid guy in the shop). Even the earliest airplane engines had exposed valve trains. The pilot would oil up the works by hand, spin everything up, hope for the best, and end up with an oil shower. Flying was an extremely dirty job.

Sorry for that little bit of pure trivia. I wanted to be an engineer but flunked out of math classes (twice) in college. Had to change direction. Anyway. I think that shoehorning power tool transmissions into an e-bike is kind of asking for trouble. The gears and bearings were intended for intermittant use, and linear loading in most cases. Adding pulleys and sprockets introduces loads that the designers made no margin for.
 
I hope this is not too far off topic, but cannot help posting what I just saw, it made me smile. It may not be quite right for todays speed and power but the idea is good and it exists, 100 euros apparently. Fichtel and Sachs Torpedo Automatic A2110
2 speed automatic hub, built so long ago the patent has probably expired.....

http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/fs-torpedo-automatic/

Good luck

Gerard
 
I had one of these hubs on a old dragster bike when i was a kid, it is hard pedaling in second gear that i remember first is super super easy.
I dont think alone this would be good choice for the ebike as you cant change gear it is full automatic with motor it would be in second all the time
 
Maybe I'm being hard headed, but I see a lot of promise with these angle grinder gearboxes. No they probably can't go on the hub like that cool little Yamaha, but as a first stage reduction for a higher speed motor like the RC motors that have the attention of many, I think it could be very useful in getting to rpms down to something sprockets and chains can handle. Plus the 90° make it simple to use lots of motors on a bike that would otherwise be difficult. I opened up one of the ones I have and sealing it to create an oil bath for even less sound and to reduce gearwear will be a matter of simplicity. As far as intermittent use is concerned, that gearbox saw quite a few hours of use that, due to my poor welding skills, was far closer to continuous than how I ride my bike, and the gears still appeared pristine to my eye.

Dismissing beveled helical gears, seems silly to me, since they are used in the drivetrain of the vast majority of vehicles on the road today. These aren't hypoid, just direct axis as is the direction toward which the car industry has gone for differentials due to the greater efficiency.

I guess I'll have to be the guinea pig.

John
 
Just found a post-hole auger web-page, and the compact gearbox is separate from the engine block. Input/output shafts are fully supported by individual and replaceable common bearing sets. Gear ratio is 28:1

This one is a handy size and is for a 2-HP 50cc engine of roughly 4,400-RPM. designed output is 160-RPM on the auger and shaft-drive direction is clockwise when holding the engine/motor (its the common drill direction). Input has a common centrifugal clutch, but if mounted directly to a motor, the output gear could easily have a freewheel attached, because with such a wide gear-down the output gear doesnt need to be small.

I'll bet the engine wears out long before the gearbox, and an equipment rental repairman might have a used unit in the shop he'd let go cheap. If it works well, they can be ordered new.

buddybar.jpg


feldbad2.jpg
 
Excellent find! that looks very promising as a 2nd/3rd stage reduction after a 1st stage belt reduction to reduce the ultra fast speed of RC motors down to something the input bearings of the gearbox can handle. Also, It looks like straight cut spur gears which means you can run it in both directions for LHD or RHD configurations. They mention clockwise direction only, but i bet thats only limited to the centrifugal clutch, not the gearset.

Augerreduction.JPG



So Badger Plus is the brand (http://www.badgeraugers.com/augers.htm). I looked at the replacement parts pricing on http://www.wikco.com/ but they only list prices for components of the gearbox.

Augerbox.JPG


"# Part 2384: Pinion drum And clutch drum assembly (top gear in drawing) - Price is $49.00 delivered, (price includes shipping to commercial and residential locations with normal delivery access in the U.S. 48 states), ships by UPS


# Part 1983: Main transmission gear and pinion (center left postioned gear in drawing) - Price is $59.00 delivered, (price includes shipping to commercial and residential locations with normal delivery access in the U.S. 48 states), ships by UPS


# Part 1984: Main gear and shaft (bottom gear and output shaft in drawing) - Price is $50.00 delivered, (price includes shipping to commercial and residential locations with normal delivery access in the U.S. 48 states), ships by UPS"

Could you please email them about dimensions, weight and cost for the entire gearunit (not parts)?

Good work!
 
Honda and Tanaka have similar post-hole augers that are 32cc with 41:1 gearboxes. Stihl has a 30cc with a 47:1 gearbox. Of course there are bigger versions, a 3-HP and 5-HP that I remember...but the gearboxes were bigger and had much smaller ratios like 9:1

This Stihl "BT-45" gasoline drill has a 27cc 1-HP engine with a 2-speed transmission and also a reverse gear. At 5,000-engine-RPM: 1st is 900-RPM, 2nd is 2700, reverse is 800 (5.5:1, 1.8:1, R=6.2:1). There is a concrete hole-drilling chuck, and a dirt post-hole auger version.

http://www.stihlusa.com/augersdrills/BT45_auger.html

B441d001p.jpg
 
Yes they would probably work fine but the issue is that the cheap price reflects that your getting the gearset only. You would need to buy or custom fabricate an oil filled casing with support bearings and flanges to accomodate the gearset which is an engineering challenge beyond most, and un-necessary if a complete gear unit can be sourced.
 
This guy has a couple and looks like he does some custom ones too:

http://www.staton-inc.com/Details.asp?ProductID=2363
 
Good find, Simon. I had skimmed Staton a couple years ago and decided my son would be better off with an electric rather than a gasser, but they have definitely expanded their product line. In the first pic you can see the size of their standard gearbox, and the guts seem to be identical to the post-hole auger drives.

Staton sells modified cases that have your choice of outlet shafts (1 or 2) and also a single shaft outlet on either side. One case has two inlets for a gas/electric dual drive choice, with a freewheel output shaft. $170-$260. Page 7 of "Staton-inc Drive Components" it looks like 18.7:1 is their most popular, and they also carry a one-stage 3.1:1 and 5.0:1

http://www.staton-inc.com/Results1.asp?Category=21&offset=90
 

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svejkovat said:
I sent rinomechanical the following email...

Subject: Selecting a gearbox for motor assisted mountainbikes.

Hello. I hope you can assist me in selecting a gearbox for the
following application.

Ultra light mountainbike with power assist from small 4cycle motor.
Power assist only. Top speed not to exceed normal bicycle design speed.


Honda GX35 4 cycle gasoline motor.

Net Horse Power Output* 1.0 kW (1.3 HP) at 7,000

Net Torque 1.6 Nm (1.2 lbs ft) at 5,500 rpm

Motor rpm should not exceed 5,500 rpm. Without having a performance
chart/curve
at hand I'd guess that 1.0 HP is a safe max value to work with.

Gearbox will be the middle of three reductions.
Timing belt from centrifugal clutch on motor to gearbox input, and
then chain from freewheeel (overrun) sprocket on gearbox output to
sprocket on crankset.

Overall speed reduced to match max rpm at the pedal cranks of approx 80
to 100 rpm.

I'm looking at specs for the planetary boxes. I wonder if planetary is
the right approach for such a
project?

Thank you very much,



This was their response..

Sorry, we do not have gearboxes for your application.

Steve Pullman

Rino Mechanical Components Inc.
216 North Main Street
Freeport NY 11520
http://www.rinomechanical.com


I get the feeling that there is a reflexive association made between "motorized bicycles" and adolescent boys. Dismissive.
Too bad. Guess ya just have to go it on your own with this stuff.

Ah, see i didn't say what i was going to use the 'box for, i just filled out the quotation form and emailed it to them.
Gee they gave you a very short response! I didn't end up ordering from Rino so I've since ordered a BaneBot P80 16:1 planetary, a lot cheaper than the rino, a higher torque rating than the rino and replaceable parts too. Should have it in a week or two, it'll be interesting to checkout the quality of manufacturing for the price ($105USD).
 
I was looking at the stanton gear boxes as well, but they seem pretty big and heavy. I would bet they will outlive all of us though. I wonder if anyone has purchased the
R-Martin bike and deconstructed the drive. Based on some of the pictures I have seen, If this drive was coupled with a 1000w motor, I think it would be the ideal setup.
Very clean and compact, without extra pulleys, wheels, chains or belts. In fact, I bet it would outperform the optibike without a problem.

I hope someone figures out how to get our build a drive like this, because I will be all over it. I may even have to buy the damn bike and take it apart.
 
If anyone can find the rest of the parts for the planetary gear drive for cheap, please post it. I found a very cheap price on the gear itself here:

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PLG-360/PLANETARY-GEAR/1.html

I think there is another plate that bolts to this with an output shaft, a bearing and the aluminum housing. Looks like these are just filled with grease and not oil, and seem to last quite a while from what I have read. I saw the complete assembly on evdeals here:

http://www.evdeals.com/USPD%20Drive%20Parts.htm

but I think they are asking way too much money for it. Their price on the gear is $49.00....
 
The output shaft is the thing in the lower left of the lowest photo. It has a 12mm, 11t spline at one end. That goes into the center of the plate that holds the planets together. On the other side is an 8mm D shaft opening (the sun gear) that takes the motor shaft.

I haven't found a source for that spline shaft. None of the local e-bike shops have ever seen anything like this. I'm planning on drilling out the rivets that hold the planet plate together and replacing the rivets with bolts. Those bolts will then hold an additional plate with an output shaft on it. A bit Rube Goldberg, but easier (perhaps) than trying to make a spline shaft (lacking a lathe/milling machine and being too cheap to pay a machinist to do it).
 
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