Denver commuter e-bike

[TylerDurden]

Does the tape leave enough surface for vapor to reach the pouches?

 

[Toshi]

Does the tape leave enough surface for vapor to reach the pouches?

Good point. I haven't closed up the case yet so will redo the tape so as to offer up more surface area.

 

[Iron Yeti]

You didn't eat that, did you?

 

[Toshi]

You didn't eat that, did you?

It was tempting, I must admit.

After getting everything back together (with increased surface area on the desiccant bags) I was somewhat dismayed to see that the voltage on the third Hall sensor still goes from 0.0 to 0.6V whereas its peers jump from 0 to 12V as expected. Suck.

It's not worth my time to keep on hunting down Hall sensor problems, especially since I will be doing much of my riding in the rain, so I'm going to sell my 36V (48V capable) 35A immediate start controller (with CA plugin since it's an ebikes.ca model) and pick up a pedal first controller instead.

For sale: Crystalyte/ebikes.ca V2 36V 35A immediate start controller

Any takers? (the link is to a buy/sell forum thread)

 

[Zoot Katz]

. . .

After getting everything back together (with increased surface area on the desiccant bags) I was somewhat dismayed to see that the voltage on the third Hall sensor still goes from 0.0 to 0.6V whereas its peers jump from 0 to 12V as expected. Suck.

It's not worth my time to keep on hunting down Hall sensor problems, especially since I will be doing much of my riding in the rain, so I'm going to sell my 36V (48V capable) 35A immediate start controller (with CA plugin since it's an ebikes.ca model) and pick up a pedal first controller instead.

For sale: Crystalyte/ebikes.ca V2 36V 35A immediate start controller

Any takers? (the link is to a buy/sell forum thread)

Dr. Clark,
Thank you for sharing your experiences. Reading the whole thread was an education.
I share many of your sentiments about maintaining a "real bicycle" aesthetic and its unstoppable functionality.
Living in Vancouver, BC your running commentary has been especially pertinent to my riding conditions.

My first rig consists of a late 80's mixte cro-mo MTB with an Xtracycle attached and a Crystalyte 5304 rear hub motor still in the box. The Xtracycle "Free Radical" along with the bags, bars and deck added ~18 lbs to a thirty pound bike, plus locks, water, tools, spare etc. but it's one of my most favourite (of 11) bikes. The Xtracycle is the best accessory I've ever purchased. Suspension consists of fat tires 2.125" and a Brooks Champion Flyer saddle. With North Road bars on a long stem and flat pedals running PowerGrips I'm sitting bolt upright and quite comfortable. The aerodynamics are lousy but I've just resolved myself to going slower. Getting onto the rear deck, chin on the saddle and pedals forward I can get out of the airstream. The long wheel base helps stability at speed. I've hauled over 150 lbs of mixed live and dead weight on the Xtracycle. One criteria is that the batteries go forward of the center of balance so I can manage picking up the rig and maintain its load capacity.

The Stokemonkey, another Cascadian product, is the hot set for Xtracycles.

Short of being accommodated by public transit, the Xtracycle or newer long tail cargo bikes like the Kona Ute and Yuba Mundo would most satisfactorily meet the requirements for safely transporting your trombones.

To my thinking, it's the long tails, bakfeits, long johns, cargo trkes, porteurs and grocers delivery bikes are the perfect mates for electric.

I smoked some dude struggling on a decent brand boinger bike with the mule runnin' light up a pitch along my regular route. He asked me at the red light at the top, "Does that thing have a motor in it?" What crushed him is that I'm probably older than his dad.

I wonder if boingers are more efficient without the pedalling effort being eaten by the bounce? Perhaps they are appropriate on an electrified DH/street bike conversion. . . except for the dinky gears and goofy frame designs.

Thanks to your information I don't think I'll be buying an immediate start controller. It would be most practical with my typical 21 spd set up. At least with the internally geared hub you can shift into a lower gear from a stop. My top end with a 50/11 (117.5") top gear gives me 35 mph at a comfortable 100 rpm. That's speeding in most part of this city. I'm hoping to keep my bicycle functional when faced with niggling electrical problems en route.

 

[julesa]

Hi Toshi,
I'm in a very similar situation. I'm in Seattle, weigh 200lbs, am in decent shape and enjoy pedaling hard. I have a long commute and I want to get to work faster and less tired. After reviewing several products I was thinking of buying almost the exact same setup you bought.

Then I started looking at the ezee hub motors... According to the graph tool at http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/ , at 48V, it behaves similarly to the Crystalyte 407 at 25mph, but it has a lot more thrust on the slow end. It helps a bit less than the 407 above 25mph, but I'm not sure whether I'll even want to go faster than 25mph... I don't have a speedometer and I'm not sure how fast that really is. On the other hand, I don't know if I'd need the extra low end thrust the ezee would give me.

Do you find you like having a little extra thrust at your top commuting speed that the Crystalyte 407 gives you (any idea how fast that is, by the way?)

How would you rate the 407's performance going up Seattle's long steep hills? I'm thinking of Inglewood Hill Road, or 228th from the Grey Barn up to Sahallee, or the climb from Fall City to Snoqualmie:

A) I could cruise up any of the above hills without needing to pedal at all if I wanted to
B) Have to pedal a little to keep from stalling but it's really easy
C) The longest, steepest hills are still tough but at least I don't have to walk the bike
D) If I had to commute on those hills I would upgrade

What's the toughest hill you've tacked with your commuter bike, and how did it perform?

Thank you!
-Jules

 

[Toshi]

Hi Jules,

I'm responding here since I think the answers are of general interest.

Typical cruising speed on flat ground for a regular biker not in lycra but instead cruising along with hands on the hoods is about 16-18 mph. Casual bikers are more like 12 mph, and the Cat3 (or 1, whatever) roadies on their training rides in full team gear are doing 22+ if they're pushing. The point, of course, is that 25 mph feels plenty fast, and indeed will likely require you to add taller gearing to your bicycle so that you can maintain a normal cadence at that speed.

On flat/flattish roads I regularly cruise along at 24-27 mph (with pedaling) with my 407. Its performance at these speeds is great. With the 35A controller then I had a nice, fat power peak at around 18 mph as well, and this was really useful for climbing hills. With the 35A controller throttled down to 20A through the CA's software limit then hill climbing was quite a bit more arduous. We'll see how I fare with the 20A controller on order...

With the 35A limit in place then I could climb hills up to about a 6% grade with just moderate pedaling. Up to about a 3-4% grade could be managed without pedaling at all. I tried a few with an 11% grade and it was really tough (iirc; refer back to earlier in this thread -- I mentioned it along with a website that allows one to measure the grade of any particular bit of terrain). Then again, that's a bear of a climb on a regular bike as well.

 

[julesa]

Cool, thanks for the detailed reply!
-Jules

 

[Toshi]

I'm finally back on the (electrical) road. Picked up the ebikes.ca package from the post office today, and was pleasantly surprised to find a different controller in the box than the one I thought I ordered! I ordered C3620PF from http://ebikes.ca/store/#Controllers and received one with a metal case (a la the one I'm selling - it looks the same, only 2/3rds scale roughly and without a reverse switch), an on-off switch, and a 24-72V rating on its identification sticker!

Thanks ebikes.ca! I'm not sure if the one I received has the 4110 FETs as on the store page, but it's definitely not the plastic 36V one, either. Sweet. They also upgraded my shipping to expedited for free. I am very, very happy with their customer service at this point.

8)

And the best thing is that it works. I just came back from a spin of a few blocks, and have regained that EV grin. Pedaling first isn't an issue really, as I was already doing it for efficiency's sake, and I even got the bike started on quite a steep grade (7 or 8%, I'd guess) with not too much effort. I dialed down the CA's current limit to 20A to match the controller but otherwise didn't change much. I'm still able to climb the steep hill up to my current apartment, grinding along at 8 mph in the lowest gear with full (inefficient at that speed) assist.

I asked Justin@ebikes about higher amperages through pedal-first controllers, and he reported that the 24-72V 4110-MOSFET controller might be able to take 25 or 30A with some extra solder in strategic locations but he didn't recommend more than 20A for the other pedal-first models.

 

[nomad85]

On flat/flattish roads I regularly cruise along at 24-27 mph (with pedaling) with my 407. Its performance at these speeds is great. With the 35A controller then I had a nice, fat power peak at around 18 mph as well, and this was really useful for climbing hills. With the 35A controller throttled down to 20A through the CA's software limit then hill climbing was quite a bit more arduous. We'll see how I fare with the 20A controller on order...

With the 35A limit in place then I could climb hills up to about a 6% grade with just moderate pedaling. Up to about a 3-4% grade could be managed without pedaling at all. I tried a few with an 11% grade and it was really tough (iirc; refer back to earlier in this thread -- I mentioned it along with a website that allows one to measure the grade of any particular bit of terrain). Then again, that's a bear of a climb on a regular bike as well.

Hey Toshi, my e-bike is pretty similar to yours.

407 aluminum frame and lithium battery. I use the 20A immediate start controller, and I have my CA set to a max amperage of 35A, I find on hills the controller will allow more amps to flow(between 25-30) and I can do a 12% grade hill(I have no idea how to estimate the grade of a hill, but its one that unless you have a granny gear you aren't seeing the top of it.) at 20mph full throttle with normal pedaling. 5-6* grade hills are a non issue and i can go up them at 26mph with my normal e-bike pedaling(would get me about 12mph without power) Maybe set your CA limit at 30A and see if you get more help on the hills.

 

[Toshi]

Thanks for the input on hill climbing. That's a nice, clean build you have there. 8) It's not too back-heavy when lifting up stairs?

One method that one can use to find the grade of a hill is to map out the segment on http://www.mapmyrun.com/create_new . Then it's arithmetic: rise over run equals grade. I'd be surprised if the grade actually was 12%, but I certainly have been wrong before.

 

[nomad85]

Thanks for that link, pretty cool. Your right, it was only about a 9-10% grade still pretty decent at 19-20mph.
Another hill that I do seems to be 14-16% and I can do that one at 18mph... I'm not sure though, the elevation part is hard to read.(the peak elevation isn't given a value, so I have to guess.)

8) It's not too back-heavy when lifting up stairs?

I take the battery off when I take it in, so it isn't too bad.

Do you have any wisdom about riding in the rain(living in Seattle I thought you might) so far it has rained once and my poncho was only slightly helpful...

 

[Toshi]

Ah, riding in the rain. Yes, I'm quite familiar with this. :x 8)

1) The bike:
- Full fenders are your best friend. Cyclepath or SKS, take your pick, they'll work the same if you mount them securely. I run SKS Race Blades (partial "clip on" fenders for bikes without eyelets) on the road bike and OEM metal full fenders on the e-bike, and the full fenders win every time.
- Maintaining a sane tire pressure and replacing your tires before they appear bald -- they harden well before then!

2) Electric-specific:
- Cabling should exit downwards from your hub motor with a "drip loop"
- Keep your controller inside a plastic bag:

- Make sure your battery is in a weatherproof location! I keep the battery in waterproof panniers: Novara Safari rear panniers [rei.com]. I didn't like the Swagman cargo pod when I tried it, and ended up returning it.

3) Riding gear:
- Waterproof/breathable shell. I use a REI Ultra Light Jacket, but any Goretex shell will do. Rubberized fabrics are awful when on the bike, imo: all clammy, cold (as the sweat sits there), and heavy.
- Optional, but recommended for the regular rain rider are rain pants: I use similarly waterproof/breathable Ground Nano Rain Pants [rei-outlet.com], but this is one place where you can definitely save a few bucks and go for the rubberized/plasticized cheapies if you're only an occasional rain rider.
- Full finger gloves are nice to keep the digits from freezing
- Make sure you have blinkers both front and rear when riding out in traffic in the rain. Drivers are bad enough as they are, let alone when there's water in the air.

Finally, you're going to get wet to some degree. That's part of the deal for not being in a car. With proper gear you should at least not be miserable, however.

 

[Toshi]

I hurt my knee today, but nevertheless logged just over 17 miles on the e-bike. For those of you in Seattle following along I headed from Capitol Hill (Denny/Olive area) to 1st via the steep downhill on Denny and then Stewart, down 1st to Spokane, then along Spokane and on the lower W Seattle Bridge to Harbor, then along Alki up the point to California, and finally up the long, steep California hill to Admiral. The return trip was the same in reverse, only heading along 1st to Pike and up Pike to Capitol Hill.

Lots of hills, and remember that about my knee? I had to pedal on the hills but often was coasting on the flats. Not the best ride for efficiency, especially since I was all out most of the time: 24 mph if not pedaling on the flats, 26-27 with my effort added in. Pedaling first with this new controller did not prove to be much of an issue -- again, I'd been doing that anyway just for efficiency's sake.

Stats: 30A limit in the CA yet I drew 42A max on the way out, 50A max on the way back in. 42.1 Vmin on the way out, 41.5 Vmin on the way in. Averaged 18.9 mph on the way out there including many a stop light, not bad, eh? On both the trip out and back Wh/mi usage was a touch over 28. Ouch.

Here's the route with elevation profile at bottom:

 

[Toshi]

I've now commuted in to the hospital two days on the e-bike. At first my energy usage was horrible, but today I slowed down a bit, and I logged a 20.9 Wh/mi figure over the round trip of just shy of 2.5 miles. This is with brief spurts up to 30 (with pedaling, of course), but is mostly 15-20 mph cruising with many small hills and many stop signs and stoplights.

20.9 seems quite reasonable to me, even if Matt Shumaker (sp?) is claiming the same figures at a constant 35+ mph for his recumbent outrunner motor project! Aero is everything, I guess, although I'm curious to see whether his figures stay the same once he's logging data real time vs. after the fact through the charger.

I still want one of these... but then the ugly head of parking rears itself once more.

Aptera

BugE

 

[pwbset]

On both the trip out and back Wh/mi usage was a touch over 28. Ouch.

My lowest usage yet is 33.1wh/mi... highest 45wh/mi... ouch indeed. Hills/mountains suck.

I'm sure you mentioned this already - in which case I apologize for being lazy, but are you using a GPS dump to get that cool Google Map/Elevation thing?

 

[Toshi]

pwbset,

I get the elevation trace from mapmyrun.com (with the elevation option turned on). Don't let the site badger you into signing up for anything!

 

[pwbset]

I get the elevation trace from mapmyrun.com

Sweet thanks! Awesome site. I posted my commute in my build thread.

 

[Toshi]

1) on the bus in Seattle at this posting. On 1st Ave in downtown spotted an e-biker: no helmet, purple folder, 16"? c-lyte up front, going slowly.

2) my bike has been reliable thus far with the new controller. Excellent.

3) my lifetime energy consumption is ~20.5 Wh/mile and pretty steady, this over 322 miles now iirc.

 

[Toshi]

With this new controller I see "-3W" at rest. Why is this so? When I dropped off the bike at my apartment this evening it showed ~1.6 Ah usage. I left it on, going to dinner for an hour and a half or so. When I came back it now read 1.1 Ah and dropping, still with -3W.

Is this some calibration setting I need to change in the CA? Anyone else seen this issue?

 

[kbarrett]

I see negative drains on mine once in a while ... usually after cutting the throttle at the end of a long ride.

Eddy currents? Caps discharging back into the batteries?

Damfiknow. I just ignore it.

 

[Toshi]

An update or two:

1) I'm now at about 362 miles.
2) Had the battery (in pannier) try to escape on this morning's commute when I went over a raised steel plate on the roadway too quickly. Thankfully nothing was permanently harmed as the Anderson Powerpoles pulled out without an issue.
3) The new controller has been trouble free so far, even though it often takes two tries to "boot up" the CA, much as with the old one.
4) I still have only used Zipcar for one day since selling my car and building this thing, and that one day was for moving furniture (I Zipcar-ed up a minivan). Score.
5) I sold the old controller a week or two ago, and haven't had any complaints about it from the buyer so I guess it was my motor's Hall sensor(s) after all. Not having to deal with them in the rain will be nice.

(with the old controller below

 

[Toshi]

Another update as Seattle moves solidly into the rainy season:

- now at 409ish miles with the new controller still working without a hitch
- taking a break from bike commuting this month, as I'm on night coverage: 5:30p-7a hours mean that I can ride the (electric trolley) bus and save the wear and tear on me and the bike, not to mention keeping warm and dry
- the controller self-regulates at 20A pretty well: I rarely see more than 1050W on the CA display. In contrast the old 35A controller would often put up 1600, 1700, even 1800W figures at peak when slogging uphill. This difference is very easily perceived at slow speeds on steep grades, but I'm nevertheless satisfied with the bike's current performance.
- still seeing the negative wattage at rest with the new controller
- I've now moved to logging mileage, Ah/Wh usage, and compiling stats weekly (if that) instead of right when I return home

 

[Toshi]

Another month or so, another update. I'm back commuting on the bike as my month of night float ended Sept 17. The electric bits are still working well, but my Nexus hub has proved to be a bit of a pain to tune and is currently being recalcitrant.

Also, I got my electricity bill for the span of 102 days from move-in until Sept 11, 2008: my lovely half-hydroelectric price per kWh is $0.0376, and I used 794 kWh in total, or 7.78 kWh/day, ~237 kWh in an "average" 30.5 day month. Approximately 10 kWh of this is due to charging the e-bike.

When put in perspective 237 kWh/month isn't bad! According to wikianswers the average US household used 938 kWh/month in 2005. Admittedly my lonesome isn't entirely comparable to Joe Sixpack, Jane Sixpack, and their 2.3 kids, but it does show that lifestyle choices such as living in a 1-bedroom apartment and running appliances sparingly make a very non-negligible impact.

Add to this my carless state and the clean half-hydro power around here and I think I'm living at a nice, low profile. Not only does it feel better, but it's cheaper, too!

8)

 

[voicecoils]

Another month or so, another update. I'm back commuting on the bike as my month of night float ended Sept 17. The electric bits are still working well, but my Nexus hub has proved to be a bit of a pain to tune and is currently being recalcitrant.
8)

Good to see your bike is still running well.

I'm still fantasizing about those torque arms :lol: Especially once I realised that my CETMArack doesn't like my forks.

Can you describe your Nexus troubles in more detail? With my Alfine hub, I'm having a small amount of grief myself. In general all is sweet but sometimes when I shift gears there's a *lag* before the gear engages. Sometimes unweighting the pedals slightly helps it click in. But...I want instant shifts so I'm considering stripping the hub and replacing the grease with oil.

http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/shimano-alfine-hub-strips/