Desulfication of lead acid ?
- Thread starter torqueon
- Start date
vanilla ice
1 MW
Pulse each cell/battery with twice the rated voltage. Low amperage and short pulses.
Gordo
100 kW
torqueon said:
Pete;
I use 20V DC at 1KHZ for 24 hours on a standard Group 27 LSA. This is what we have used on ocean going vessels for 50 years. Many of the commercial battery chargers now have a desulphation cycle on them, but it is difficult to find information as to what they are doing and if they works.
Kits are available if you search the internet.
Edit; Apparently most commercial battery conditioners now use 3.26MHz NOT 1KHz.
yopappamon
10 kW
Might try a search, there were a few threads around on this topic a while back.
SamTexas
1 MW
2 years ago I tried a commercial charger with desulfation cycle (I think it was a Black & Decker). It did NOTHING to the 3 weak (but still useable) lead-acid batteries that I tried to revive. I ended up returning the charger. "Desulfation" was removed from my vocabulary.
SiriusFun
1 mW
- Joined
- May 3, 2011
- Messages
- 16
I had the Vector version of that same Black & Decker charger. The desulph cycle is timed for 24 hours and then shuts off. Worthless! Not a very good charger, either. I had two and they both failed after a year or so. Don't think they are designed for daily use.
I have been using a BatteryMinder for about a year and have done some tests. I was able to get about a 20% improvement in Ah after I had desulphated for about 3 weeks. It depends on the battery, too. Some are just too far gone. I think desulphators are best used right from the start. Between every charge, even on new batteries.
I have been using a BatteryMinder for about a year and have done some tests. I was able to get about a 20% improvement in Ah after I had desulphated for about 3 weeks. It depends on the battery, too. Some are just too far gone. I think desulphators are best used right from the start. Between every charge, even on new batteries.
liveforphysics
100 TW
When lead dies, its over. Hundreds of tricks and gizmos sold over the years for reviving lead batteries. If you ever take one apart that has gone bad and take a look, you will understand why there is no real fix other than melting it all down and re-casting the plates.
999zip999
100 TW
Liveforphysics, What tourch tip do you use for melting down sla lead plates ?
liveforphysics
100 TW
999zip999 said:
I don't bother to do anything with lead.
Hypothetically if I wanted to melt lead, I would just put it in a cast iron or stainless steel kitchen pot on a stove.
AussieJester
1 TW
torqueon said:
If you have a google you will find schematics
for simple to build units, if your not the DIY type i have
heard good things about the MegaPulse range of products...
I have next to know knowledge about batteries however, so i would be listening to Luke's (Liveforphysics) advice he's a battery guru
KiM
Harold in CR
100 kW
You Tube Bob Bedini for an education.
zap
100 W
Here are some "cheap" circuits you can try... use caution!
The $3 battery charger:
http://www.alpharubicon.com/elect/3dollarbattggn.htm
I've had varying degrees of success with both and none of it was too "scientific".
The $3 battery charger:
http://www.alpharubicon.com/elect/3dollarbattggn.htm
I've had varying degrees of success with both and none of it was too "scientific".
liveforphysics
100 TW
Harold in CR said:
LOL!
Harold in CR
100 kW
That was just to show the OP what the sulfation looked like and how it was cleaned from the plates. 
bigmoose
1 MW
Here are a couple of bedini's you tube vids :
[youtube]QDywJNxf83g[/youtube]
[youtube]X5POnMo3_EE[/youtube]
[youtube]QDywJNxf83g[/youtube]
[youtube]X5POnMo3_EE[/youtube]
Gordo
100 kW
Sooner or later I predict a Darwin Award to Mr. Bendini. In a previous incarnation I think he was the "Great Newdini"! :lol: 
ps. I find that a "DEAD" battery is someones opinion. On Monday, I was given 5 more dead mobility scooter batteries. So far the first two have been run on the desulphator, taken a charge and are now starting ride on mowers. The next one is taking the wake-up treatment. They may never come back to 100% but it does not take 100% to start a 16-18HP IC motor. 4 other "dead" scooter batteries have been my RV house batteries since spring.
ps. I find that a "DEAD" battery is someones opinion. On Monday, I was given 5 more dead mobility scooter batteries. So far the first two have been run on the desulphator, taken a charge and are now starting ride on mowers. The next one is taking the wake-up treatment. They may never come back to 100% but it does not take 100% to start a 16-18HP IC motor. 4 other "dead" scooter batteries have been my RV house batteries since spring.
liveforphysics
100 TW
The question is, why? It's an awful battery when new under the best of circumstance. Now you want to invest time and effort to use questionable ones?
G
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My name is Luo Xi, are you, oh well written
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Gordo
100 kW
liveforphysics said:
Between the neighbour and I we have 5 ride-on-mowers. Free batteries are better than $300's worth. Simple as that. Retired, without the 6 figure income that you enjoy.
SamTexas
1 MW
Gordo said:
I don't think it's a matter of opinion. "Lack of understanding" is probably more appropriate. From my experience you could have revive those "dead" battery with a normal DUMB (NO desulfation feature) battery charger. A dumb charger does not care what voltage the "dead" battery is at. It simply supplies ~15V and let the battery takes what it can. A "DEAD" battery is one that cannot hold charge after being connected to such dumb charger for at least 48 hrs.
I have not seen a desulfator that can revive such "DEAD" battery, but I would be glad if one exists.
Gordo
100 kW
Sam;
From what I understand there are 3 levels of sulphate bonds possible in a SLA cell. The first level is easily reversed by a normal DC charge of @ 15V. The next two levels of bonds are not affected by a DC charge, but they can be broken by using 1KHz DC at 20V. I also found that "battery conditioners" have been use on ocean going vessels for 40+ years. These devices use the 1KHz DC at 20V. Before the advent of modern communications, ship to shore was carried out at 2,3,4KHz AM and then SSB. Both forms of communication was made impossible if someone in the anchorage happened to be using their conditioner, so it was common courtesy to advise your fellow boaters before doing it. What I am trying to convey is that the practice of conditioning a battery was well known a long time ago. I was on one 80' vessel in the summers, from 1980-1990 which had the original 1974 batteries. Most of our local commercial fishing vessels during this period, sat 6-8 months of the year. Many owners, without conditioners, found their batteries only lasted 2-3 seasons. I have taken many of these discarded 8D batteries and by using the 1KHz pulse, brought them back to 95%+ life. This is how I got started collecting batteries instead of buying them new. Now I grab every battery that crosses my path and give them a pulse, then a charge. There is no question that a battery such as the one shown in the video, with buckled plates, shorted or open cell connections, can not be re-used. When I have time, I will put my neighbours charger with conditioner on my scope and see what it is doing, when it is in the conditioning phase. I just use a signal generator for my batteries. I built a conditioner from a kit, many years ago and it was very slow.
To say battery conditioning is impossible, or worthless is not true. I am certainly not claiming to get every old battery back to 95%, but for starting an ICE, you don't need much unless it is 0*C out. If I get 1/2 my free batteries to wake up and be useful , I am very happy.
We have several dumb chargers and only one with the conditioning feature. When it charges a new battery, it takes it to full charge and quits. When it decides a battery needs conditioning, after conditioning, it drops the voltage until it is only charging at 1 amp and never fully charges, a less than perfect battery. We then switch to a dumb charger and leave it for another 24 hours before installing it. If we don't need the battery, we switch to a float charger 13.25V-13.75V and leave it for a week. This often improves the resting voltage, as measured after 24 hours off the charger.
Edit; Apparently most commercial battery conditioners now use 3.26MHz NOT 1KHz.
From what I understand there are 3 levels of sulphate bonds possible in a SLA cell. The first level is easily reversed by a normal DC charge of @ 15V. The next two levels of bonds are not affected by a DC charge, but they can be broken by using 1KHz DC at 20V. I also found that "battery conditioners" have been use on ocean going vessels for 40+ years. These devices use the 1KHz DC at 20V. Before the advent of modern communications, ship to shore was carried out at 2,3,4KHz AM and then SSB. Both forms of communication was made impossible if someone in the anchorage happened to be using their conditioner, so it was common courtesy to advise your fellow boaters before doing it. What I am trying to convey is that the practice of conditioning a battery was well known a long time ago. I was on one 80' vessel in the summers, from 1980-1990 which had the original 1974 batteries. Most of our local commercial fishing vessels during this period, sat 6-8 months of the year. Many owners, without conditioners, found their batteries only lasted 2-3 seasons. I have taken many of these discarded 8D batteries and by using the 1KHz pulse, brought them back to 95%+ life. This is how I got started collecting batteries instead of buying them new. Now I grab every battery that crosses my path and give them a pulse, then a charge. There is no question that a battery such as the one shown in the video, with buckled plates, shorted or open cell connections, can not be re-used. When I have time, I will put my neighbours charger with conditioner on my scope and see what it is doing, when it is in the conditioning phase. I just use a signal generator for my batteries. I built a conditioner from a kit, many years ago and it was very slow.
To say battery conditioning is impossible, or worthless is not true. I am certainly not claiming to get every old battery back to 95%, but for starting an ICE, you don't need much unless it is 0*C out. If I get 1/2 my free batteries to wake up and be useful , I am very happy.
We have several dumb chargers and only one with the conditioning feature. When it charges a new battery, it takes it to full charge and quits. When it decides a battery needs conditioning, after conditioning, it drops the voltage until it is only charging at 1 amp and never fully charges, a less than perfect battery. We then switch to a dumb charger and leave it for another 24 hours before installing it. If we don't need the battery, we switch to a float charger 13.25V-13.75V and leave it for a week. This often improves the resting voltage, as measured after 24 hours off the charger.
Edit; Apparently most commercial battery conditioners now use 3.26MHz NOT 1KHz.
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