Dual sport bike using a Hubmonster motor Video pg3

[Bluefang]

Sorry, just changed the thread title as i am not longer flat tracking the bike at all, never got a positive response from the organizers and also i came to the same conclusion Chalo. Would defiantly have to be a mid-drive bike rather then a hub motor style one.

 

[hillzofvalp]

so is the primary reason that you have poor geometry and tire selection.. or maybe unsprung mass not suitable for off road?

 

[Bluefang]

None of the above that i know of as far as i know the extra mass on the tire would help it dig down to grip better and geometry can be changed by shortening the forks and changing the hubs adapter plate if needed, more the case was that its MUCH easier to find flat track wheels in 18-19" sizes, 13" only has one or two.....they just had no idea about electrics, were not interested in learning. So i gave up because i lost interest in trying to flat track the bike and due to wanting to build a mid drive sports bike putting alot more power thru the motor then i am atm i decided the best option would be to build the bike to register it and sell it off to fund the next project.

Been having problems with that idea as i have fractured my wrist in multiple spots including scaphoid bone playing sport and under doctors orders not to touch the bike and been in a cast its kinda hard to work on the bike let alone ride it. The bike is complete but i have hit a large stumbling block with registration where i need to get a Australian Design Rule Brake test done on the bike because some moron has decided i have changed the brakes in a way he does not understand. Test will cost me atleast $1800 but am trying to talk the "Policy officer" out of it and then i still have afew other bits to pay for before i can even register the bike so atm i am trying hard not to send multiple ranting emails to Queensland transport about their frocked up antiquated little man syndrome rules.

Anyone in Australia want to buy a working electric Motorbike with a battery pack of 20s106AH lipo with BMSs? Just make sure your approved engineer writes up a proper report(mine never did which cause the guy to ask questions) about the bike including the fact that it has less weight, been converted to single seater, front brakes are standard and the rear brakes have the same size disk with handle bar levers(due to extra hose length it is stainless steel). So all up it stops on a dime as proven by a friend who did a test ride for me to make sure it all works for when the engineer came to have a look.

Asside from all that it should be registered in a few weeks, keeps getting put off by something.

 

[hillzofvalp]

Haha that really sucks about the brakes.. they don't check brakes over here. Mine is highly modified, with custom adapter bracketing, and I don't even have a rear brake at the moment. I think going middrive is a good thing. I may look into it some day when I move to a different battery pack. that will be the best time to put ina rear brake.

good luck!

 

[John in CR]

Did your friend get to really ride it? How'd it go with all that weight? I must be a big load with that much battery. I take it the throttle function is playing well with those controllers. What kind of battery-side peak current is it running or did he not get to ride it enough to tell much to avoid the risk of getting caught unregistered?

Sorry to hear the registration woes continue. Government always mucks things up. That's one of the things I love about here...they tend to just leave you alone. The transit cops help direct rush hour traffic and later in the morning they stay busy getting their quotas with cars that have expired registration or inspection. I'm just an interesting looking curiosity, not something to ticket since I don't have plates and look somewhat like a bicycle.

 

[Bluefang]

The guy who did the test ride was only on ~20% power and only did a quick run back and forth as it did have a few things that needed fixing. No one has ridden it since i have finished it off after modifying the shunt and adding regen.

Yeah Australia is a nice safe country......safe in terms that the government restricts just about everything making you jump thru hoops to do alot of stuff if you want to do something completely crazy all good

 

[Bluefang]

New photos of the bike essentially complete after the changes my new approved engineer asked for. He is sending the report in tomorrow hopefully so i should hear back soon and then i ll be able to put it on the road properly. Taking so damn long to get registered due to first engineer frocking me around and then the impossibility of getting orange cable of the right size or even heat shrink.




View attachment 4

 

[John in CR]

Great work. I can't wait to hear how she runs.

 

[Lebowski]

Is this the bike you want to try the Honda power stage with ? What kind of controller do you have on it at the moment ?

 

[Bluefang]

It's only a test bike to learn as much as I can before I build bikes for other people. The bike I am looking at using your controller on would use the same motor as this bike. But water cooled and up around the 80kw mark. Thinking of converting a VFR800 with a mid mount belt drive unless I can get some one to pay for a high power conversion on their bike Unfortunately I don't have a high paying job so it's abit of a waiting game

I will try and get some video up tomorrow night, my camera had a flat battery of all things today

The controllers on it atm are a pair of greentime 24fets that unfortunately seem to be either soft or medium start as the throttle response is kinda slow

 

[John in CR]

The controllers on it atm are a pair of greentime 24fets that unfortunately seem to be either soft or medium start as the throttle response is kinda slow

Sorry, they're Medium Start. They were ordered before Zombiess Throttle Tamer or the CA3 became available, so medium was the only way to tame a hard jerk on the start. Have you already juiced up the current from the stock 80A each? Have you weighed the bike, because it looks a lot closer to heavy scooter than to ebike? With the weight and the high effective gearing I'm not sure you can send enough current to make it feel anything like your last build pushing 12kw peak or so, geared about a third lower and a bike of half the weight.

Every time a see your thread title I think about an e-moto build using dual Hubmonsters, so I can load it up with lots of batteries using all moto components and not worry so much about weight. I've got a set of aluminum wheels where I could do a front/rear dual hubbies with a narrow 16" front and fatter 15" rear with both wheels coming in 23-24". I'd have to do something like 1/3- 2/3 front-rear power ratio, but having all that room for batteries and controllers on a low slung sleek and silent street cruiser that slices through the air has a lot of appeal, especially since I have 2 hubmonsters already.

Of course I could also just put a MidMonster in the pivot point run at the same amount of helper power. I don't need superbike performance. What I have now is pretty satisfying. I just want to add 50-75kg in batteries and moto component, without sacrificing any performance. A second motor helps me get there, and I think it's enough extra torque without going too high in current that the bigger wheel will allow me drop voltage below 100V and still have more than enough top speed. Unlike most of the guys chasing high power, I'm not interested in really pumping up the current. I like my systems at low stress levels. Motors need to see light loads when you're twisting the throttle to keep efficiency high, and high efficiency throughout the operating range means no heat worries. Not everyone can have a giant custom built motor like Luke's, so I'm the guy figuring out how to get there on the smallest budget possible.

John

 

[Bluefang]

[youtube]th4exOGKCMo[/youtube]

I think i have one controller running sensorless due to a hall sensor connection been knocked when i put everything together, will try and get some more videos up later with that fixed. Causes slight juddering/noise on startup. Should be dead silent

 

[John in CR]

Nice, seeing it at different angles as you approach and get aboard it looks a lot more slim and trim than I was thinking, and I like it a lot more now than from just the static pics. For having the small wheel required you pulled off a really nice look. You and Hillsofvalp both proved that the small wheel isn't a big detriment in the looks department.

The only time I ever tried sensorless, it was an abomination in the power department, ie only useful to limp home if a hall problem developed. That was on a 3 phase, so hopefully getting that sorted makes a nice difference. I hope your approval process for registering is smooth sailing now. It will be interesting to see how you can push performance up with a sealed HubMonster once you're street legal.

John

 

[Bluefang]

Approved engineer sent all my paper work off to the government group to get my bike modefications approved last week so will hopefully have everything sorted by the middle of this coming week. But then i go on holidays so it may have to wait till abit later.

Called up to get someone out to do a general safety certificate while i wait for my engine modefications approval, which is another bike of paper i need to register the bike...He asked if it was 100% electric, then had to push the test back till later as he had to wait for the government to tell him how to fill out the forms as they do not cover electric vehicles at all. Australian government seems abit backwards interms of electric vehicles.

All up very amusing day for me and some more waiting around for everything, but its close now

 

[triggeraa]

[youtube]th4exOGKCMo[/youtube]

I think i have one controller running sensorless due to a hall sensor connection been knocked when i put everything together, will try and get some more videos up later with that fixed. Causes slight juddering/noise on startup. Should be dead silent

Plenty of power. Looke smooth on take off. Nice SLC as well!

 

[Bluefang]

Well its finally registered, took many months to get it legal but it is now approved, registered, plated and insured. Took almost 2 months of getting dicked around by my first approved engineer, 2 weeks for the new approved engineer to submit his items properly, 2 weeks for it to be conditionally approved, 2 weeks for the vehicle standards test station to have a slot for me, 20min for the guy to approve it, 10min for a safety certificate, 1hr of fast talking to inform Queensland Transport registration office that i was a electric conversion and finally over a week just to find someone to insure it. Now that its all done i think i can do it much faster next time

I have no video of it but some stats are its using 2kwh at 50km/h and about 7kwh at 80km/h. On the 20min run to work with very flat road been beach front it barely made it to 60 degrees celcius. 20min run to the GFs after work with a ton of hills and stop starts but speeds of around 60-70km/h it reached 95 degrees and heat soaked up to 105 before dropping pretty fast. On the way home traveling at 80km/h while riding at 80km/h it was sitting on ~80 then when i slowed down it crept up to 90 and after i stopped it heat soaked up to 95 and then dropped. First day ridding and i had to work for most of it.

The bike now has its long range pack added to it so its probably weighing in at 150kg, i weigh 85kg, 90+ with all the safety gear. Its running 20s106AH, 20ah been hk lipo and 86AH been large format batteries i am going to be using on my motorbike builds etc. Most of the weight is very low down so its a great bike to ride, not that i have much experience on motorbikes as technically this is the first day i have legally ridden the bike. Anyone want to buy it i wana move on to my next build already lol

 

[hillzofvalp]

Are you already thinking about more power?

 

[hillzofvalp]

Are you already thinking about more power?

EDIT! I recognize that headlight! I can't find it on ebay anymore. can't remember.. thought it was called LS1.. 100-150USD.

 

[John in CR]

Bluefang, she turned out great! I like that extra swing arm space. It's begging for a second motor for real performance carrying the big battery pack. I hope it's not too much of an ice wagon pushing 60kg more than me and my bike. What kind of peak current are you running? We're finally getting some consecutive dry days, and I'm reworking my battery pack and brakes to show off with some monster climb videos to demonstrate what's possible with lighter loads.

John

 

[Bluefang]

Haha, the head light is stock its just a cheapy 7" round head light as i can not legaly change it to a led one . As to more power, yes i want to boost it abit but i am not sure on how much more the motor can take. Tho i feel like a complete idiot as with the prior videos i said i thought the hall sensors were matched with the wrong phases but after that i tested them and they seemed perfect......dumb asssss

Worked it out and just tried swapping the halls....BINGO Went from top no load speed of 148km/h down to 120km/h. Went for a ride last night and power usage is down to about 6kwh or less at 80km/h but i also managed to try it out at 100km/h and found out that at 100km/h it struggles(almost flat battery didnt help) and pulls 10kw+ which makes me think that my range at that speed is going to be 75km or less . 8kwh battery pack does not last that long at that sort of speed Its a bit cooler running with all the halls setup properly.

It pulls pretty hard but with the medium start its not ripping it like a true electric, its more like a high powered CVT motorbike type feel where the power is just there but almost delayed firm power. Its weird A few people have already tried it and all come away with a huge EV grin

 

[John in CR]

With that load you can't push it to be a real performer no matter what, not with that gearing. You can boost the current up 30% or more and pick up extra rolling start acceleration without affecting motor heat much at all as long as you stay away from repetitious launches or go slow up really long hills. That's because getting up to the same speed takes about the same amount of energy and only extremes make big differences in the efficiency curve during acceleration.

It's good to see you have the wiring right now. You should see a pretty big decrease in motor controller heat, especially that hilly stop-n-go route you took. If you're really using 10kw for 100kph, you're going to have heat problems on long highway runs.

I suspect your square front is acting like an air dam and there's no pointed tail to consolidate the flow off of the rear causing you to drag a big wake in the air behind you. Think of aero like a boat and the bow up in the air pulling the biggest waves possible behind the boat is the least efficient, because energy from the boat motor is where the energy for the wake is coming from. At 10kw you have huge gains to be had, and there's probably some easy fruit to be picked with little effort or weight. The nice thing is that anything that improves aero also dresses up the look of our bikes, so it's not like duct taping on some extra batteries for more range.

I need to get myself one of Justin's data loggers to really see what I'm consuming, since I can't even really read my CA while running other than a quick glance at speed. I don't know what power I use at 80 or 100 or 120.

 

[hillzofvalp]

23% drop in no load kv.. hmm. Need to tinker with that more this winter. I got like 17.8kv no-load (inertial load, no extra B-EMF loading) on the dyno. assuming that's 123% of correct, would put me at 14.5kv if a change could be made. What kv are you getting now, John?

 

[John in CR]

Hillsofvalp, I thought you got totally squared away on the wiring. The advanced timing of halls with the wrong controller created lots of unnecessary heat.

With tire on and blades throwing off pretty good wind (ie some fan load) and voltage at 120.3V, no load speed flickers between 175kph and 176kph, so call it 175.5. Wheel size is 1535mm diameter, so 1905rpm, 15.8rpm/volt. That's with xie chang eb2xx controllers set for 100% max speed.

When I ran mine with the halls going to the wrong controllers, I got a no load speed of 195kph at about the same voltage. That was after my crash with no axle end protection, so I lost which set was which with my new harness job. The motor would get hotter than I liked at the shell even riding gently, and riding normally it was what I call hot within a mile and a half. Wrong set of halls and high voltage may be fast but has big heat issues.

Now I have the wiring right and turn the BBW thermometer on occasionally out of curiosity. A month or so ago I took a ride just pacing traffic, almost 2 miles to the highway, then on the highway almost 5 miles including a decent climb up and down a hill maintaining 60-65mph on the highway with some spurts to 70mph+ when I felt crowded by cars. 10 minutes at my destination and then back completed the trip. The stator stayed below 70°C on the way there and below 80° on the way back. That wasn't a crisp cool day, so close to 80°F out on the road, and I was sitting comfortably upright, not in a tuck.

 

[hillzofvalp]

Quick calculation with his 130/60 puts his current kv at 15kv. 18.4 on high end. Correct?o

 

[John in CR]

Quick calculation with his 130/60 puts his current kv at 15kv. 18.4 on high end. Correct?o

As a ballpark figure yes, but knowing voltage at no load speed and the wheel size input for the CA would help. Bluefang is running a pair of Wuxi 24fet controllers, and the effect of controllers is something we don't know. This is especially true with your Kelly's, since I'd expect them to be more advanced controllers and they may advance the timing a bit at the high end of the speed range.