E-Big Dummy Bobber-100V/HT3525

[will_newton]

update: The first page or so is the old xtracycle build and page 2 gets in to the Big Dummy build. This is a long term project.

Hi folks, I'm going to be doing a build thread for my e-bike here. It should be pretty fun! I've got most of the major parts here so things should move along (I hope). I'll be posting some pics and info as I go along.

So let's start at the beginning, this is a Kona Hoss that I built from the frame up. It's got pretty decent components: Hayes hydraulic disk brakes, Shimano Deore (LX,XT, and XTR mix) drivetrain, Marzocchi Dirt Jumper III 20mm fork, Loco downhill wheelset, and a set of Maxxis Hookworms.

I'm a big dude, so I picked a Hoss as it's built for Clydesdale sized riders. I have never had a bike that feels like a proper fit until this one. The frame is very stoutly put together, but in aluminum so it's light. It's a 20" frame with a 5" riser bar, the bike has a big crossover SUV feel to it. I've ridden it on a few trails, but mostly it's an Urban Assault Bomber, put together for street and city thrashing, light trails, and night riding.

This is going to be my second e-bike build and I'd like to give a brief mention to my first build, which I regret not documenting. The first was an older rigid Cannondale MTB with a used Wilderness Energy brushed front hub motor running on 36v 10.5ah SLA's, then converted to 10s 10ah Lipo, then 11s 20ah lipo. I had also upgraded the motor leads from 16ga to 12ga and all power connectors to Andersons and added a Cycle Analyst. It was a decent ride with a 27 MPH max speed (no pedaling). It has a relatively new 35A controller and new brushes. After a few hiccups getting going, it turned into a reliable ride that was a lot of fun. The only thing I would have liked was more low-end acceleration, but this was a minor complaint. I knew after a few weeks of riding the e-Cannondale, that I would be upgrading sooner or later, so I didn't try to push it much, just make what I had as reliable as it could be.

Unfortunately, I knew I'd be using the lipo's from the e-Canny and needed the bike for pedal-ready for other reasons (explained later) so, I de-converted it in a hardcore fashion. I went from all the e-bells and whistles to a 69er, 7 speed, single front disk, bullhorn bar minimalist messenger style bike. I like it this way, but certainly miss getting my e-bike fix.

Initially, I had a decent vision of what my build was going to be and set about gathering parts. I was going to do a frame up build of a rear drive cargo bike. In addition, I tried to source as much as possible through Endless-Sphere members because that is where all the cool kids do their shopping.

So, let's get started!

 

[will_newton]

The first purchase was one of Oatnet's S-750 frames along with many of his components. Quick as a bunny, JD shipped me a gorgeous frame, cranks, derailleurs, stem, bars and other parts. I was very happy with the frame, but here was an issue that quickly became apparent that this frame was too small for me, a lot too small. I realized that my plans needed changing.....hmmm...

I knew I had the Kona and it would be killer, but I still wanted a bike for everyday use that I could just hop on and go, so I de-converted the Cannondale. I have a road bike, but you need to get on the special shoes and Lycra (yes, I have worn Lycra, but I didn't inhale).

As for the S-750 frame and parts, I decided to keep them and finish off the frame as a regular MTB. My daughter doesn't know it yet, but she is getting a sweet bike from her Dad for Xmas made from JD's parts. It's perfect for her and I am glad that it worked out this way. Check his frame sale thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10748 and see what other folks have done with his frames: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11765

 

[will_newton]

Well, so much for that bike from the first post! I left the headset, bottom bracket, cranks, pedals, front shifter and derailleur, oh yeah the seatpost clamp too.

You can just see the hooks from the bike lift I use as a workstand sometimes. It was a good find from Lowe's, but my "light" e-Cannondale was about the most it could ever hold. Once this bike get further along, I'll have to move it off the lift and onto the table and floor.

 

[will_newton]

I got the new front end on. The Marzocchi Drop-off triple fork allows for some height changes in the front end, since you can adjust the fork and brackets. I've got it set at the max for now, and will lower it later once the read end is sussed out. The front wheel is an Intense Mag 30 DH rim with a 20 mm axle. I scored the fork and wheel off of E-bay.

The tire is a Maxxis Hookworm, with a Panaracer DH Supertube and a Panaracer kevlar liner. The headset is a Cane Creek S-3. Brakes are Avid BB7 203 mm disc. I ordered all of that from http://www.jensonusa.com.

If you can, you should look at getting a set of BB7's. I am amazed at the ease of installation. The first time I put one on, I was a little intimidated, but it went better than I thought. Now I think that they are easier to put on than v-brakes.

 

[will_newton]

I stuck on the xtracycle frame and the old rear wheel, just to get a preview.

 

[dequinox]

Cool build, I really like the extracycle builds, and am interested in doing something similar to the stokemonkey setup at one point. Something like Justin's bike would be cool!

Can't wait to see it finished!

 

[grindz145]

This is looking real nice! I'm doing a build of a Norco frame and an xtracycle. I have it all torn down right now for paint. Your posts are good motivation

 

[Zoot Katz]

Welcome to the world of long tails.
The Xtracycle is the best bicycle accessory I ever purchased.

It, and an electic motor, are the most practicle option for people looking to replace an automobile for their typical trips.

Get used to answering lots of questions when you park it on the street.
If your setup is discrete, people can stare at it for long time before they even notice it's electric. (my mixte frame throws 'em off too)
What they first spot is the wood snap deck's resemblance to a skateboard.

 

[AussieJester]

Has anyone tried a 'laid' back seat post and cruiser style bars on these setups?
would turn it into a more forward pedal positioned bike, the extra length
alone would have to improve stability at speeds one would think...

KiM

 

[Zoot Katz]

Has anyone tried a 'laid' back seat post and cruiser style bars on these setups?
would turn it into a more forward pedal positioned bike, the extra length
alone would have to improve stability at speeds one would think...

KiM

Our recently departed nutsandvolts hooked his Xtracycle to a cruiser style, pedal forward, frame.
I once saw one mounted on a FWD recumbent.

 

[will_newton]

I started the rear wheel/disc brake /cassette install. WHOOOO-WEEEEEE! This has been a sumbitch of a job, no two ways about it. I hope you guys appreciate that I bugged out of work today, just to work on this for you!

To get the 7-spd freewheel on, just spin it. I used a regular and thin washer out of the kit, which just fit inside the cassette and allows the frame dropout to just clear it. That was the only thing that was easy.

OK, just getting the disc on was an operation involving about 6,000 test fits. First thing though, you need a disk adapter. I got mine from here http://www.bicycledesigner.com/defaulthome.asp?Main=/datasheet.asp?PartNumber=505202

In order to get max clearance, I had to turn down the the aluminum adapter using my wood lathe, a little 3-jaw chuck, and a scraper. One side of the adapter has a taper. I machined that taper off. Also, the side cover threading stops just a bit short of the flat, so I also cut a bit of a recess so it would screw on flush. I also used a Dremel and ground away some of the flat off the side cover using the edge of a cutting disk. Then, I Dremeled of just a teeny bit off of the inside of the disk near the bolt holes, so it would fit over the side cover threading.

The pics show the disk mounted and washer setup on both sides of the hub (the gap is for the dropout). The disc side needs lots of spacers. This offset also helps get the wheel centered.

I Dremeled the Xtracycle lawyer lips enough to let the washers sit flat and filed a little in the dropouts to let the axle drop in all the way.

Testing all the multiple washer/ adapter/ torque arm placements was maddening. Especially when I had to get the spreader clamps out......

 

[will_newton]

Here's some stuff I didn't get around to posting last night. I used a set of Bessey Duo-Clamp bars to spread the dropouts. It would have been impossible to get this rear end together by myself without them.

I tried several ways to find the best way to fit the E-bikekit torque arms http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=product&id=31&parent=5 I got from Methods with this setup. I ended up doing a bit of grinding to get them to fit in between the chainstays. This seems pretty secure since the arm can only turn into the chainstay. The beefy torque arms are going to take a lot of pushing to get through the stays.

One other thing, to get the Avid BB7 to mount on the xtracycle frame you need to use the front mounting bracket instead of the rear one.

Here's pics!

 

[liveforphysics]

Good work on that brake! You've got a top notch battery, controller, and frame. It's going to make a great bike

I'm building E-bikes for my parents for Christmas, and I just got done stuffing 10awg leads through the axle of a 9C. A few times during the process I wondered if it was not going to be possible to fit, but by stripping the wires bare and using heatshrink for insulation, I was able to get the 3 big 10awg leads through with the hall sensors wires.

Since you've got massive controller current ability and battery massive battery power, you may also want to consider swapping out the phase leads for something bigger on that 9C to let you take better advantage of the current you're able to feed it.

 

[will_newton]

Yeah Luke, I was thinking of that. I don't intend for this to be a speed demon or drag racer, so initially I am going to start with limited current and increase it until I hit a happy place and if it takes new wires to get there, then I will.

I got the bike standing up and man oh man, it is a freaking beast! The jacked up front end is actually about right. This bike is going to ride very high. The seat height is crazy tall and it is like riding in an SUV. I think I'm in in love. I even stuck on rear racks and sat on the snapdeck. It's going to be a cool passenger roost. I think I want to make running boards! The whole package feels surprisingly stiff and the quality of the xtracycle kit is superb.

I picked up the xtracycle kit from http://www.cycle9.com in Carrboro, NC. I had placed an order online with them for a Cycle Analyst and a few other parts before, but since they were local of an e-bike store as I am likely to ever see, this time I drove an hour or so to visit in person. I tested a couple of e-bikes while there (a Stokemonkey'd Big Dummy and a Radish, I think) and decided that a longbike was the way to go, so I picked up the Freeradical kit and a Magiccarpet pad for the deck. So "Thanks!" to my NC e-bike dealer and fellow E-S members at Cycle9.

The only regret so far is that I noticed that the triple tree forks limit the turning ability of the front end. It doesn't matter for riding, but for moving around off the bike, it is limiting. You can't just turn the wheel 90 degrees and go sideways. It's a small complaint and I can switch back to the other fork if I need to, but this bike is long and needs all the help it can get. I was thinking about the reverse switch grip Methods has in his kit. I could hear the garbage truck-like BEEP! BEEP! BEEP! in my head wheeling this monster around the shop.

I had to go pick up the chain today. So now I need to install the rear derailleur and chain. Then I need to get the brake and shifter cables run and stick on some grips and it will be ready to pedal.

Then it's on to electronics installation. I have been thinking about battery and controller mounting today. I wonder if I'm going to fab something out of carbon fiber....it just feels necessary.

 

[Zoot Katz]

. . . I was thinking about the reverse switch grip Methods has in his kit. I could hear the BEEP! BEEP! BEEP! in my head wheeling this monster around the shop.

You don't want any throttle other than when you're pointed in the right direction.
It might be safer with a thumb trottle but with any kind of grip and twitst throttle you're taking a chance of your bike running away.

I had to go pick up the chain today. So now I need to install the rear derailleur and chain. Then I need to get the brake and shifter cables run and stick on some grips and it will be ready to pedal.

I found it takes one and about a two thirds of a full chain to replace a chain on a Xtracycle. The third new chain I only had to buy one.
The other thing is you might need tandem length rear brake and gear cables.

Then it's on to electronics installation. I have been thinking about battery and controller mounting today. I wonder if I'm going to fab something out of carbon fiber....it just feels necessary.

There's a huge protected area under the snap deck for mounting a controller.
[ img ]
I've since switched to steel P-clips for holding the auxiliary tubing to the V-Racks, inverted the controller and have its face covered with a loose neoprene splash shield. I ride in the rain about 8 months out of the year.

Tonight a guy approached me at the bike rack to comment on the length of le Béte and hearing that it can carry 200# suggested a small electric motor.
He looked incredulous when I told him it didn't need a small electric motor. . . it already had a big-ass electric motor.

It's my baby B-2 bomber and station wagon.

 

[AussieJester]

A hub motor in the rear rim linked to the stoke monkey motor by chain or even belt to eliminate noise would be
hella cool IMO...Coming along nice mate good work...

KiM

 

[liveforphysics]

A hub motor in the rear rim linked to the stoke monkey motor by chain or even belt to eliminate noise would be
hella cool IMO...Coming along nice mate good work...

KiM

Good idea KiM, putting a 1-turn wind onto a hubmotor and gearing it down something like 6:1 would make for a bike with minimal extra weight, but somewhere in the ballpark of 4-6 times the power. That would be perfect for a big beefy extra-cycle bike like this, perticularly with a guy who has some machining tools and skills to make it happen.

 

[will_newton]

Sorry, there will be no Stokemonkey on this bike or any bike I own. I hated the one I test rode. I like being able to choose whether to pedal or not. I also disapprove of the design. These guys sat down and said, "Hey, let's a take a very simple, neat hub motor, mount it in the middle, where it can take up space for no reason and lets expose all the powered drive mechanism while we are at it. The kids on the rear deck, will love watching the chain and gears gnashing between their legs! Can we make it overpriced too? OK!" I am not one to talk bad about something e-bike related, but the Stokemonkey is just ridiculous. Linking hub motors is a neat idea, like the dual motor RC drive, but I'm not getting that crazy with this build.

I have considered 2WD,but it was a passing thought. I am more interested in a simple, reliable ride than a fast one. I didn't get Methods controller for pulling massive amps, If I had, there would be a 5305 mounted on the rear wheel. I got it for the failproofiness- is that a word?

For some reason I keep thinking about the 6x10 motor instead of my 9x7, that way I can keep the high voltage batteries, drop some of the top end speed and get a lower amp draw, but I want to try what I've got first. I wouldn't mind joining the 40MPH club, but I don't want to ride like that all the time. Where I ride there are lots of stop and go. I don't know...I'll just have to see how things turn out and go from there.

 

[will_newton]

I'm building E-bikes for my parents for Christmas, and I just got done stuffing 10awg leads through the axle of a 9C. A few times during the process I wondered if it was not going to be possible to fit, but by stripping the wires bare and using heatshrink for insulation, I was able to get the 3 big 10awg leads through with the hall sensors wires.

I didn't realize that Luke had started a thread on this. I would just be happy to go up and down the block, but could see doing this after the bike has been run for a bit. here's the link- it looks very do-able http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14580

 

[AussieJester]

I was actually a little shocked he stopped at 10awg i thought 8awg would be more how Lukes Dad would roll
maybe the 10awg for his mum will be OK? ...

KiM

 

[liveforphysics]

I was actually a little shocked he stopped at 10awg i thought 8awg would be more how Lukes Dad would roll
maybe the 10awg for his mum will be OK? ...

KiM

lol, once trimmed to length, it only works out to be roughly a 8" section of 10awg, and the rest is all 8awg.

If I can get my dad interested in E-bikes... omg... that would be a good thing for the E-revolution. lol He is a supercharger + nitrous on a BBC to commute with sort of guy. I imagine his first bicycle build would involve the same motors used on kilacycle, and I'm not kidding.

 

[will_newton]

I got the derailleur on and cables roughed in. I'm missing a piece of housing for the rear shifter cable and for some reason the chain I bought is missing the linkage pin. I gotta hit the LBS Monday.

On a side note it looks like I may have to replace or attempt a mod to the e-brake levers I got from methods. There doesn't seem to be enough pull to get the brakes to grip well. There is quite a bit more bend in the original shimano levers. we'll see, I am going to keep tweaking.

I got my daughter to sit on the back seat. I don't think she quite knows what to make of it yet, but is interested.

My wife walked in and saw my project for the first time (she rarely comes out to my backyard workshop). She just looked at me....and the bike..... and me.....still looking at me......toe tapping, arms crossed.......waiting for an explanation.

I just shrugged my shoulders, gave a half-assed grin and said, "Well, I gotta be me honey."

She just shook her head and walked out. It's amazing how well you can get to know someone. She didn't have to say a word to let me know how she felt about it all, but I got the feeling that it's the last I'll hear about it from her-maybe.
SWEET!

 

[will_newton]

Well, she's a roller! I got everything on and adjusted and took her out for a quick pedal. Untrimmed zipties were everywhere.

Pros: First impression of the xtracycle is a good one. Time will tell, but it felt very solid,unified. Bike feels familiar, but different.

Cons: . Those e-brake levers haven't got enough pull at all for the BB7's. They must be modded or replaced. I don't like the rake of the forks, the bike does not like riding with no hands, it twitchy. I need to make changes on the fork, it's way too soft for the big load, even when set at it's stiffest. It needs new springs or different/more oil to work with this setup. It doesn't help that this is a Freeride/DH fork with gobs of travel. I think I may just switch back to the original DJ III fork, which has always done me right.

Maybe I can have all this worked out in a few days. A few more tweaks and it should come together.

 

[will_newton]

I changed the fork back to the old fork pumped up the air presuure and solved most of the squishy suspension problem. The new fork also has less ride height, which brought the front down 2". Handling is greatly improved, still not perfect, but definitely better. Also the front end has much greater freedom of movement without the triple tree style fork, so it became much better to move around the shop.

I starting messing with the brake levers and I broke the arm trying to bend it a bit. I was telling myself not to the whole time cause I knew it was going to snap. But guess what? Now I can hack the levers since I broke 'em!

So, I took apart the e-bike levers and sliced the housing in half with a cutoff wheel to remove the switch. I have a set of Shimano levers that have a really nice cutout section on the backside of the brake, which with some Dermel milling, I was able to slide in the switch housing which butts up to the brake lever.

There is a slight issue in that I can't easily mount the switch, so I am going to use a fair bit of epoxy (MGS resin, not that 5-minute crap) and milled glass with some black pigment to bed the switch. It's in a decently protected area and I have roughed up the plastic housing and brake lever to make a good mechanical bond.

I've got one lever milled and ready to glue and will get to the other one tomorrow. I will also have pics.

 

[dequinox]

Good idea KiM, putting a 1-turn wind onto a hubmotor and gearing it down something like 6:1 would make for a bike with minimal extra weight, but somewhere in the ballpark of 4-6 times the power. That would be perfect for a big beefy extra-cycle bike like this, perticularly with a guy who has some machining tools and skills to make it happen.

What does it mean to have a "1-turn wind" motor? Where's the thread on that if you don't mind me asking?