E-bike + carbon frame + 52V. 18650 + BMC motor

Bengy22, the first part I bought for this build was the motor, a BMC motor, from HPCycles. I always want to try one off this, but I start to think... If I fail to build this torque arms, I may damage the frame and I may not have the ability to repaired this. I will use it, maybe not in this frame.
Thanks for tuning in...

Luis.
 
ebuilder, I think I was not express myself correctly... I will never buy this specific brand off ebike, but buy the ideia off mid-drive frame and attach my components. I just love the ideia off a carbon frame with a specific mid-drive attachment.
One ebike from manufacturer I will buy, If want to spend the money was a Bomber-52 from Stealth.
I attach a video from a Youtuber, with the general ideia...

https://youtu.be/8fvTVu9FX5M

https://youtu.be/7HRye0GLZJg

Take care,
Luis.
 
ebuilder said:
A counterpoint for all to consider who decide to proceed in Luis's direction with this carbon frame.
Biggest reason I wouldn't build it? The downtube doesn't support enough cells for large enough battery to feed a 1KW+ motor.
Yes, there will be weight savings, while the battery lasts. If you bring this bike to a bike trail in your car and carry an extra battery in your car you can plug in when the battery dies, you are good. Lower weight of lower amp-hr battery is better for mtb performance no question. Just as long as you have enough battery to get home. Also, what cell quality would come in that battery you would buy from the supplier that is relatively proprietary to this frame? Unknowable and if you don't know, this is kept from the public for a reason, lower quality cells.

That's my pushback. Is this design direction better than any of the name brand e-mtb's that permeate the high end market with price target of $10K? Yes, I think its a much better value because not only do name brand recognized higher end e-mtb's have small batteries for lower mfr cost and reduce size and weight for an attractive aesthetic, but also have proprietary technology on almost all e-mtb components from battery to CANBUS controller and motor with exorbitant part cost replacement. This is what I call a nefarious design intent for 'consumers'. Caveat Emptor with this stuff. Think carefully before spending your hard earned money is the lesson for all.
PS. A lot of $10K e-mtb's sold today by the big names will turn into lawn art in 7 years due to afore mentioned after going through a couple of $1000 per battery replacements when replacement batteries with cheap cells are only worth 1/3 of that.
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I guess it entirely depends on how many watt hours you will want, I agree that more mtb ebikes don't need the range or extra weight a bigger battery that a big battery would offer. I've actually been looking a lot into building in one of these frames. I'm not very familiar with the e10 frame but I've been looking into the e22 which supports the m620. From what I've seen the retailers that offer batteries for them are around the 840wh mark so not super small but I see what you mean. Also from what I've read you do tell or you can ask for specific name brand cells, not sure where you came up with the idea that these are unknown or "kept from the public for a reason". The retailer I was looking at to buy from was greenbikekit, they offer a few cell choices and they are all well know cells. But this is just for if you want a battery that is from a retailer, emtbforum has a good thread on the e22 along with some fb groups and 14s4p of 21700 is achievable with a 3d printed battery case that would slot right in or roughly 1000wh with todays cells. Modify the frame a little bit and 14s5p can be done which is 1300wh. One guy was even crazy enough to stuff 14s8p of lgmj1's giving him 1450wh. And this doesn't even mention the triangle space where one could stuff more cells, I saw a mockup someone did fitting another 42 21700's for a dual battery in cad, with what looked like enough space to fit 56 21700's. That's actually what I was planning on doing if I did go that route, second battery in the triangle. If you do it right that has the possibility of at least 126 21700's or roughly 2200wh which I think is more than enough. Even with no modifications to the frame (other than a small hole for the triangle batteries wires) you could feasibly fit 56 in the down tube and another 56 in the triangle to get around 2000wh which is what I was planning on doing if I did a build.

Andy's frame is actually just a seroxat frame, if you wanted to fit the most amount of cells that's probably the way to do it the easiest. I've actually been a big fan of Andy's videos on the m620. He unfortunately had issues with the 72v battery he made after I think 3 videos of showing the m620 off on 72v and never revisited running 72v again which is surprising considering how much better he said the motor felt on 72v, he ended up fixing the battery but put it on a electric pit bike. And the issues with needing to run sensorless on the m620 have been fixed so all of his issues like bad startup or errors would be fixed. I've tried to get him to post a video on running the motor sensored either through his discord or comments on videos but the only response I got was that he didn't want to showcase the phaserunner anymore after they treated him bad and canceled his dealer account (fair enough), but I tried to tell him he should revisit it with the adaptto controller he once tried sensorless and it didn't work well so he could push even more power than the PR (Lunas ludi v2 for the bbshd can do 150pa so the m620 should handle more than the 80pa he was doing) but never heard anything about it. Sucks cause it was my favorite build and he hasn't shown it off in over a year now :( .
 
ebuilder said:
You are knowledgeable Bengy and the kind of input this forum needs to raise the bar of tech available for custom ebike builds. Thanks for sharing your perspective. You know more about battery design options surrounding that carbon frame with integrated battery than I. I have seen a few stock builds of this frameset like Rob's that are running 840wh of unknown Li-Ion cell quality which to me is too small a battery to power the M620 Bafang motor.
If one can reliably package a 14s 21700 4p, a reliable 1000whr battery can be created as you correctly state which puts one in the game with the M620. I run this exact size battery with a BBSHD and it is a very good combination to run a lot of power through the motor for a sustained period to have some fun out for romp or go 50 miles if riding conservatively on a full charge. More battery capacity for a 1500-2K watt mid drive motor is better of course.

Can you provide the links to the battery options you speak of for this frame? I am curious what kind of 3D printed enclosure fits into that downtube?...and what the best path may be for that particular frame to fit a battery...or... perhaps run a parallel piggyback battery on top of the downtube in tandem for dual batteries you mention. Weight in my view should always be at the forefront for a build such as this because you want some level of agility for a bike of this ilk. So maybe a battery in aggregate of 1200-1300wh range would be the sweet spot.

Andy is an interesting man. A creative genius of sorts who seems to get embroiled in controversy because of the risk he takes. He probably would do better in America where men of his nature are allowed more free reign to create and invent with less restriction. Andy has also gone through a lot of personal issues...too many problems to site. I love his genius and his nature. If I knew him, I am sure we would be very good friends because I understand him on some level.

I hope you share your build Bengy with the forum here. Would love to see what direction you take it in the context of the battery in particular which is the heart or lungs of any custom build.
Thanks again for setting the record straight about the options for that frame. I stand corrected on the options available I was unaware of.
PS. I somewhat lean more in the following direction which is similar to what Andy built. But that said, again as you know it comes down to horses for courses. With a high volume tire, I am fine with a hardtail with is lower cost, lower weight and less complexity and maintenance. Because I live in a concrete jungle and my off-roading days are largely behind me, a hardtail for me just makes sense. I like the overall feel of a hardtail...with a bit of trail and wheelbase to really smooth out undulating stretches at higher speed. As to the carbon bike discussed with integrated battery, I don't like to toil with the demanding nature of fitting cells inside of a downtube for somebody's sense of a correct aesthetic. The following looks fine. But in sum for me, this is ultimately why I always default back to a solid production late model mtb frame...a 29'er has very good compliancy...with a BBSHD which is pretty plug and play. Further I am ambivalent about torque sensing because of calibration issues and cadence sensing tends to be a bit more reliable and get what you get when you have the ability to program assist which is a great feature of BBSxx motors as you know. To me, ultimately battery size rules the day when you have enough motor to travel the speed you like. An undersized battery on a M620 isn't something I want to invest my money in. I would ride an XL frame on the following bike and maybe able to squeeze a 20amp-hr shark battery comprised of 14s 21700 4p on this frame which would be a fun combination I believe...but again, really don't need a dually:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/134214589623?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110013%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIMRXI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20201210111452%26meid%3Dbb7849ba89f940d18ea99838ce0a2361%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D9%26sd%3D134214589623%26itm%3D134214589623%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DPromotedRVI&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum%3A134214589623bb7849ba89f940d18ea99838ce0a2361%7Cenc%3AAQAHAAAA4Iq9Pd1eiueKRlho1pRz6mINUhStQzszJpZvBbRW0ZTLemYR%252FHAL16wlWMKfDvzF9geiaXpchhkNcIBC2KGDKh%252FVJTSVSC237vKrHaWtHm9XLW5TumdHfzRla9sg%252B3jd9rRq8g%252F5%252BQkjcfCaAhprt%252BblBEYiUy6iilxAy3gN1fozDTY6jJUJWRis8U7pX3T2p9AQX9y3TqQzgdNgPoC9FyAEqF5%252FQRvUpbZ5mNEe5hyzfxFaueEJ8sFCQVfEPg3Fzj0f9yIW7zwsiZ%252BMWIzkVv%252BnVWN%252FJUWj%252BEui0yKp27Y7%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675
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Thanks for the kind words :) . I actually have a 45a bbshd hardtail right now as my current ebike, with a 52v 832wh battery myself
so I know the want for more range or battery capacity. I will have to find the post talking about the 14s4p case, I know it was a user (or two different users) that had posted about them and I'm 99% sure one mentioned that they would give out the files for others to use. It was either on the emtb forums or one of the m620 motor groups on facebook.

I think the best route would be this 3d printed case, I believe you have to remove the original case mounts to make enough space but you don't have to do any permanent modifications to the frame. I will also link a users post about doing some mods to the frame to fit 14s5p (but in a e23, same frame but larger swingarm for fat tires). The information on the 14s8p 18650 1400wh battery is lacking, the user posted two photos and didn't really describe anything about it other than the cells, amount, and that it was in two pieces to make inserting into the frame possible. I actually talked to his friend? on fb where it was said that he had to "modify the inside of the frame a lot" and that it wasn't recommended. That's the annoying part of the frame, not a lot of information available online to the overall dimensions so hard to know for sure what can be done battery wise unless you have one on hand. I agree weight should always be a high concern with a bike like this, but personally I don't mind sacrificing weight for capability, or at least I don't for my area which is flat so the extra weight isn't really felt. I will put some links at the bottom you should checkout. I also highly recommend checking out the m620 motor groups on fb if you can, lots of good people and information on not just the motor but bikes it goes on. I've seen the frame you link on their as well.

I agree, Andy's content has basically been awesome in the diy ebike scene. I hope he can sort out any more personal issues and hopefully bring out more ebike content, but I know he's somewhat shifting to other hobby's as well.

I would love to but unfortunately I don't believe I will end up doing a build, at least with the m620 motor. It's not that I want to, oh the contrary. I really could see myself pushing what is known on the dengfu frame with the dual battery which I would 100% do if I did a m620 build. (side note, while I do think the seroxat frame Andy uses is better for the diy battery, I really want the clean offroad beast that looks like a off the shelf build not diy that the e22 offers). Something about the e22 really calls to me unlike the other frames. I also wanted to push the bounds of what is known for the m620 more power wise. As you know Andy did do 72v, but before he detuned the power due to overcurrent errors (due to running sensorless) he was "only" doing 96pa and 60ba. Due to the somewhat new information that is very unknown to most of how to get hall outputs from the magnet sensor using the stock controller board not a lot of people have even tried aftermarket controllers for the m620 and I couldn't find anyone showing off using this method, only a short video showing how. I was planning on using a flipsky 75100 to do 120pa and 60ba, a little more than Andy (he later lower pa to 80 due to the errors) but then the 75200 was rumored and later released. That small vesc can do 150a constant at 72v or peaks into the 200-300a range. So the ultimate goal shifted to 200pa (bbshd ludi v2 does 150pa so I don't have any real concerns the motor can't take the power) and 70ba or somewhere around those numbers. This as far as I know would be the most powerful m620 build online, as again the phaserunner is the only external controller I've ever seen used with the m620, and again its 96a max. So very exciting stuff with that much power and going into the unknown for these motors.

So then you might ask why am I not going to go through with the build, well it's very simple, Money. A build like this even after sourcing used suspension and wheel set is going to cost me at least $4000 likely more as I'm sure I forgot stuff in my google sheets list. Now for what I would be getting its not completely unreasonable but for me personally I can't justify that. I'm looking at getting another motorcycle after selling mine a year ago and that's very close to what I could be spending. And I'm in talks with a user on purchasing a hub motor and controller for a very good price. Even after all the parts I will need and doing it on a hardtail I'm going to be under $1500, which although isn't full suspension will be more powerful and better suited for my 85% concrete riding and 15% offroad green trails with no inclines. Not to mention the extra hassle that is getting the m620 on a external controller, making a highly custom battery for the frame, figuring out how to mount the controller externally etc. And I have concerns on heat cause in Texas my 52v 45a bbshd does get quite warm already. If I didn't already have a bbshd bike, the hookup on this hub motor set, or high expectations of power / battery capacity I 100% would be looking at spending the extra to do the m620 with motor frame, so much cleaner, capable and not much more (my bbshd ht was $2500ish, a m620 e22 stock would be around $3000 with similar specs). So that's why I always try to mention it to users that are considering build a ebike.

If are aren't super interested in the full suspension I know they make frames for the m620 without it, that way you don't need to spend or have the extra hassle of it. I do want to mention that although Andy's frame is marketed or named with 27.5in it does fit 29in tires, I've seen it done before in the fb groups, I'm also a fan of 29in so that's what I would use as well. As for torque sensing I haven't had the pleasure to use it before so I wasn't to sure about the reliability. I do know that if you make sure to get a uart m620 you can still mess with the ability to program the assist and stuff, although bafang is fazing out the uart motors you can still find them. I think you probably will be able to fit 20ah in that frame, I actually have seen a post with that frame claiming larger ah, but not with a hard case though like the sharks.

Links:
Dengfu e22 emtbforums battery thread list links: https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/dengfu-e22-battery-thread.29926/
3d printed cell case(user talked more about it previously but this post best shows it off): https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/dengfu-e22-frame-thread.26880/post-422106
I also highly recommended going through that whole thread if you want to learn more about the Dengfu frame.
Endless-sphere user Daxxie e23 build with 14s5p 21700: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=113569
Post about that frame you linked where user Greeno talks about his two batterys one 24ah and one 34ah at the bottom: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=113569
Endless-sphere user Tomblarom shows off a picture of Andy's frame with a large custom batter, I've seen it before on fb and iirc a company custom made the case and it was 52v 28ah? Can't find any more info on it: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1650325
14s8p 18650 build in the e22:https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/dengfu-e22-frame-thread.26880/page-6#post-394932
Dual battery cad design for the e22: https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/hydra-batterie-question.46676/page-4
 
ebuilder said:
Great post Bengy. Thanks so much for the comprehensive overview.
All makes sense. Yes, time and money as you say. I too have considered taking similar design direction just haven't been overwhelmingly compelled to take the dive because I am relatively satisfied with what I have. I know, that's an unusual construct. :)

A couple of questions please...
You like me, no surprise like gas powered motorcycles. Can I ask what motorcycle you are considering?

Last question, you mention you are running a 45a controller with your BBSHD. Do you achieve this with the shunt mod of the stock controller....or did you purchase an aftermarket controller? Does your controller have field weakening?...which really wakes up the BBSHD for big power/high RPM.

Thanks again for all the great perspective.
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I'm always itching for more, although I bet nothing will ever fully satisfy me even a super high power hub :lol:
Well just for reference I had a Fs570 supermoto, but living in a flat part of Texas I'm now looking at a Triumph Daytona so a sportbike. Would in all honestly be more that 4k but I can swing it when I compare the capabilities of a motorcycle. I should actually have one already if the seller of the first one didn't sell the bike the out from under me two hours before I was coming with cash, I had already test rode it and we shock on me buying it so I'm still salty about it. Second bike I had a chance at was interrupted by a family emergency so by the time a weekend came around that I had free time it had sold :(

Just a simple shunt mod, I've thought about contacting Luna to get the Ludi but I've heard they are very strict who they sell to, usually people who have bought bikes from them so I haven't really thought much about doing it as I didn't even get them motor from them. Maybe in the future, field weakening would be nice.

No problem, it let me voice my ideas to someone so I was happy to do it :D
 
ebuilder said:
Dude, feel ya on having a racer's heart and yearning for more. Something you are born with and can be traced back to childhood. :) Same here. I have aged and perhaps nth degree power isn't the end all for me any longer. I am placated by 'good power' and don't need overwhelming power.

The Daytona is a wonderful racing motorcyle, no question. Gripe I have with Triumph is what killed the brand the first time with Honda. Reliability. Triumph has perhaps the poorest Quality Control of any name brand motorcycle today. Thing about Triumph dating back to the 50's is, they are seductive. Some speculate the Triumph Bonneville for example is the most beautiful motorcycle ever created. I believed so and owned the remake of the iconic Bonneville T-100 which I started taking apart before I even rode it to Cafe the bike and put bling parts on it.
Biggest problem with Triumph are dodgy gearboxes they never stand behind. For that reason, I will never own another. I do love the design of their bikes and their performance but quality control matters and the company which is inundated with field failures turns a blind eye. It isn't even close in terms of QC with Japanese bikes. Japanese motorcycles like Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Suzuki have far superior QC. OK, rant over and good luck if you get that Daytona. Maybe you will hit the Triumph QC lottery. :) Btw Bengy, do you track your motorcycles?

Here is a bike I am personally jonesing for: Kawie Z900RS. A gentlemen's sport bike. ;) I am a huge fan of the in-line 4. Just love the sound. Ergo's Bengy. A motorcycle shouldn't kill your back, hips and neck like the Daytona does....joking with ya...you are probably younger than me. Most are. ;)

Kawasaki-Z900RS-Cafe.jpg

Quick question about the BBSHD shunt mod you performed to increase controller amperage from 30a to 45a.
Did you perform the solder job on your stock controller? On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being hardest, how hard was the mod to perform in your view. It looks a bit fiddly to perform and wondered your impressions.

Cheers Bengy.
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I hadn't heard much about triumph's questionable reliability, interesting. But I also had a glorified ktm which I do always hear about them having issues and I had none, heres hoping I will be 2/2 on the bikes. I haven't had a chance to before, I would love to get it a try but the closest one is 100 miles away. With no way to transport the supermoto I wasn't going to do 100 miles on way on 85mph roads haha. Maybe with the triumph I will look more into it though.

The supermoto was my first motorcycle, I haven't actually had the chance to get on a inline 4 before. I was originally looking at a mt07, but I decided I wanted more power. The mt07 I later found out only makes 10whp more than my supermoto while weighing about 150 pounds more so that's probably why I was looking for more. I love how the triples sound and behave, mt09, street triple became on the go to list but then a daytona for a good price came up and after a test ride I knew that was my next bike, well till the guy offered to hold it for me for two days till the banks opened just to sell it 2 hours before meetup again :evil: . I'm well aware of the ergo's haha but I'm young and its a bike for fun rides not commutes so I think I will be fine. That Kawi does look pretty though.

Yes I did, on the scale of difficulty I would barely put it at 4/10, but time consumption more 7/10. Picking away all the rubber to pull the controller out took a while but it wasn't hard. I did the drill a hole and pull it out with a screw method which worked great and I put a temp sensor in one of the holes. If you have experience soldering small things, a good iron and some flux it was really quite easy. I don't have a good soldering iron or any experience other than a few wires so it took a little bit to get the resistor to stick. Oh and I got a nice shock cause I didn't fully drain the caps :oops: Overall though if you have any experience with a soldering iron I would say you can do it. I will note though I believe when I got the shock I somehow killed the pas on the controller, so that's something.
 
Hello crew,

I have a problem and I need your help.
Its the first time I have a geared motor. Wen I start the motor, he start nice and quite, exept the wheel do not turn... I try a lot off combination with the phases... When he start smoth, do not turn the wheel.
It work nice and not on the road yet. Do not now what happen.
Any ideias ?

Luis.
 
soaresdacosta said:
Hello crew,

I have a problem and I need your help.
Its the first time I have a geared motor. Wen I start the motor, he start nice and quite, exept the wheel do not turn... I try a lot off combination with the phases... When he start smoth, do not turn the wheel.
It work nice and not on the road yet. Do not now what happen.
Any ideias ?

Luis.
Click to expand...
If it's spinning smoothly, but in reverse, then take a look at the lower right part of this chart:

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/golden-motor-magic-pie/110168-testing-bldc-motor-s-phase-wiring-hall-sensors-and-wiring
HRaeRi4.jpeg
 
Hi E-HP,

Thanks for your help, its working fine now. :mrgreen:
I do not think about that, because I change all the connectors to anderssen, and I thought to put all the matching colors on the connectors... I thought but I do not do it... :|
Since I can not have a trough axle motor, easy, I will go with the original plans. I already have a prototype torque-arms...
News in a short time.

Luís.
 

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Its a shame that the other frame ultimately didn't work out but I'm glad to see an update on the build! So are you going to be using the geared hub motor you originally had planned? I like hearing about how people push things to the limit, so after reading about how you planned to really push the geared hub it intrigued me. And I'm interested in how you are going to do the battery, of course with the suspension taking up all the space compared to the last frame the battery situation will be unique.
 
Can you modify the dropout to include a pinchbolt? (clamping style)
 
Hello crew,

Finnishing some random stuff.
I will need to buid a battery box, because I do not want to atach the battery upside down. It will be, in the under tube.

Luís.
 

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soaresdacosta said:
Hello crew,

First prototype box... dont like it.
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I think I would have to agree with you, shape just doesn't fit the frame well. I would think a custom battery that could be slim but fit on the whole bottom tube would look good, but if you plan to use that battery have you thought about just mounting it upside down? Please excuse my editing skills but personally I think this looks good and it also keeps the weight down low as well, just an idea I had 😁
 

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soaresdacosta said:
Bengy22,

That was my first ideia...but... in the em3ev site, they say "Do not put the battery upside down". Thats my problem.
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Hmmm I wonder why that is the case, from the photos on the site the battery is built well enough to be put upside down. If I had to guess it's because they don't trust the mounting system or the assumed two little bolts to hold up all that weight so they want to make sure no one put its up to the test. Personally think if you put enough rivnuts and a backup strap it would be fine but that's my opinion
 
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