e-Bike technology question from a dummy

hsors

10 mW
Joined
Mar 14, 2014
Messages
29
I am trying to understand e-bike technology before buying my first e-bike conversion kit. Can somebody point me in the right direction to get answers to the following questions:
- What is the difference between a sine wave and square wave controller
- What is a torque simulation controller and how it works ?
- Some motors seem to have hall sensors, other not. What is the role of hall sensors and which controller is needed in each case ?
Thanks much
Henri
 
I'm too dummy too to know your controller questions answers.

The halls set the timing for brushless motors to operate. Inside the motor there is three sets of power wires, and each set is turned on and off in sequence to make the coil attract to the next magnet in the ring of permanent magnets in the motor.

So the hall sensor turns on and off as it passes a magnet, telling the controller when to turn on and off power to each of the three phase/power wires to the motor. Beats me how it's done with a sensorless controller, but I do know the sensorless controller works less smooth at start up than sensored.

I have run both types for many miles, and despite the chance of a hall sensor problem, I still greatly prefer sensored motors. However, the better controllers will work with sensors, but still operate anyway as sensorless if anything happens to the hall sensors in the motor.

If you keep the plug dry and in good working order, and don't severely overheat the motor, you will have little trouble with halls.
 
There have been 5-phase and 7-phase motors, but 3-phase is the most common because it is the simplest and lowest amount of stator-tooth groupings that provide a reasonably smooth output of power.

A stator-tooth is a laminated steel protrusion that has copper wire wrapped around it. buy energizing the wire and then turning the power off, the stator-tooth becomes a magnet, and then it is stops being a magnet. If we imagine that the twelve numbers on the clock are the twelve stator-teeth in a given motor, then: The first phase is when 12, 3, 6, and 9 are all energized at the same time. After the magnetic rotor moves a few degrees, the first phase group is de-energized, and then 1, 4, 7, and 10 are energized. the third phase of course would be 2, 5, 8, and 11.

The most popular style of motor around here is a brushless style with permanent magnets on the rotor. Since there is no connection between the stator and the rotor (which has some benefits), the controller needs to know exactly when to turn each phase on and off to get the motor to spin properly. The hall sensors accomplish that.

There are sensorless controllers as an option, but a motor with halls is much more controllable and smooth when starting from a dead stop. Some controllers start out using the halls, but once they are up to speed they have the option of going into a sensorless mode. Those type of dual-mode controllers are handy if you often get the motor and controller very hot. If the halls fail from heat, you can still get home once you start pedaling to get some forward motion.

A common square-wave controller (sometimes called "trapezoidal") has a sudden ON and OFF to power each phase. I have been told that a sine-wave controller (sometimes called "sinus") uses some electronics voodoo to make the ON and OFF a much smoother curve. This is reported to be more efficient, cooler-running, and less "buzzy" for those builders who want an E-bike that is especially quiet.
 
I finally got my S12S Sine wave with the torque simulation working so here is what I notice about it compared to my 8 year old Infineon controller. It is very smooth and the torque comes on gradually and rises with advancing throttle. I believe that it would be more effective with PAS which is my next project.
It is dead silent. All those buzzy and sizzling noises from my 9C clone are gone. It is weird to hear only tire noises. I like it and will continue to use it but I really think the greater benefit is with PAS.
otherDoc
 
Thanks much to you all.
This forum is a great place to learn !
Congrat to all the contributors
-Henri
 
Henri go to ebikes.ca and check out a real and honest vendor with real support. Not just a fly by night ebay or alibaba stlye reseller.
Where do you live ? Easier to point you in the. Right direction.
 
I would say the first thing you want to understand to buy a kit is IS IT COMPLETE OR NOT?

So the excellent point is made about buying from the right dealer could help. He mentions ebike.ca. Note that you can find on his site the nice 9 Continent hub motor kit. http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/conversion-kits/front-9c-kit-435.html Needs a battery, but so complete otherwise. $405 to start.

Another reasonably reputable dealer is Yescom. http://www.yescomusa.com/Brushless_Electric_Bicycle_Engine-_48v_1000w_Front_Wheel_Hub_Motor_Kit.html Oops, isn't that the equivilent kit? Only $289. Also needs a battery.

But what does compete REALLY mean? You can live without the Cycle Analyst that comes with the eBike.ca kit, but don't you WANT it? Notice they have the torque arms available to you right on the page with the kit. Is that 1,000w front hub motor for the Yescom really as good as the 9C, or at least close enough since it's cheaper?

Really, you just have to answer those questions for yourself. If you're buying a KIT, you shouldn't be worrying too much about exactly how those hall sensors work, you're supposed to be getting the right setup together. If you decide you're ready to get building and experimenting, then you can start learing in detail. So worry about a brushless potentially better than a brushed, reliability of components, compatibility of what you might need to add, (Yescom is giving you a charger, but will it work with the battery you end up getting?)
 
BTW docnjoj, I understood that with a torque simulation controller, pushing the throttle doesn't change the speed, which I can understand if the throttle controls the torque. Is it what you observe ? And can you put your bike in "scooter" mode (you do not pedal and get 100% of the power from the motor) ?
Thanks,
-Henri
 
Hi hsors. Speaking as an old guy from the Ebikers Asylum for the Hopelessly Addicted (got a day pass), maybe think of ebikes as a "hobby", aka "pass time" and a device to travel through time and space. Figure on what you "need", then double that. The really worst part about owning an ebike? The pining for the next "better ebike".
I sorta feel better these daze since I refused to allow my ebike into my bed anymore. (Tongue was getting sore. Hers, not mine.)
You have been warned!
 
hsors said:
BTW docnjoj, I understood that with a torque simulation controller, pushing the throttle doesn't change the speed, which I can understand if the throttle controls the torque. Is it what you observe ? And can you put your bike in "scooter" mode (you do not pedal and get 100% of the power from the motor) ?
Thanks,
-Henri
No it works like a regular controller and does have a speed limit that you can set. Perhaps as a Pedelec it would act that way but the 5 so-called "speed ranges" don't do anything with the throttle . I have all the stuff for the Pedelec but have been too busy to try attaching the sensor on the crank. Soon though.
otherDoc
 
Shape of the waveform.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave
 
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