E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

[Ianhill]

Ive got my 5v DC/DC converter fitted it has a wide range input that needs no adjusting to give me 5v 75w out between 12s and 18s in so I'll just use a another converter on its output to give me say 12v 20w + 5v 15w and stay just under its max.

Looking at the specs of the astro it's got 8×3 phase for 24slots and 8magnets for 4pole pairs so to chase the rotors magnetic signal I would say 45° or the stator would just be one at the start of each phase I will follow this to see how u get on cuz I'm slightly confused to as to what is going on as the bomas halls are out of line to chase the rotor it must read the stator.

 

[ElectricGod]

dead post

 

[Ianhill]

I would say your motor will run if all the other motors follow the same setup, I don't nw why but thats how I thought it worked at first and then a bit doubtful as mentioned, If you dremil for the halls make sure to spray it with a insulating lacquer.
I wonder the winding arrangement of the astro as its based on rc is it terminated delta could be a interesting motor if it is looking at the coils packing there's no more turns to be gained but if it could be rearranged to a wye that would lower the kV a fair bit make it more manageable.

 

[ElectricGod]

I would say your motor will run if all the other motors follow the same setup, I don't nw why but thats how I thought it worked at first and then a bit doubtful as mentioned, If you dremil for the halls make sure to spray it with a insulating lacquer.
I wonder the winding arrangement of the astro as its based on rc is it terminated delta could be a interesting motor if it is looking at the coils packing there's no more turns to be gained but if it could be rearranged to a wye that would lower the kV a fair bit make it more manageable.

I think it's already wired as WYE, but yeah if it was Delta, I would do better to rewire it. However, at 113kv and 98 volts that's 11,000 RPM. At 6.79:1 or 13T to 88T that gets wheel RPMs down to 1620 RPM or a top speed of about 60mph for my size tires. Wheels sprockets are cheap. I have an 88T wheel sprocket, but larger are readily available for $15 or so making it possible to change the gearing up or down easily enough. Same for motor sprockets. I have a couple of adapters coming that convert the 1/2" motor shaft to take 3/4"219 motor sprockets. Basically gearing wont be a big deal.

 

[ElectricGod]

I'm thinking about going with 48 volts or 12S rather than 24S. Making up the battery holders will be easier and later if I want to convert to 98 volts it's just a matter of running two packs in series. The motor adapters are made and on their way which is totally cool. I have the battery holders and just waiting til I finish repairing the blue scooter so I can get back to this.

 

[ElectricGod]

I started laying out battery holders last night to see how I am going to connect them together. I'm going to make 12S packs and try running at 48 volts. If I find the moped just too slow, well connecting two of them in series will get me to that magical 98 volts easily enough. Also, 12S will allow me to use motor controllers I already own. 98 volts is going to cost me an additional $400 for a controller that can run at that voltage. 12S packs are much easier to build than is a 24S pack which is the underlying reason. 24S means way more interconnects between battery holders and getting those interconnects to where I can solder them together added lots of wire length inside each battery holder pack. I want to keep internal wiring to a dead minimum and any lengths of wire just add losses to each pack so that's bad.

 

[Ianhill]

I don't think 48v on this motor will he boring I bet it hits at least 50mph when all done sweet, Mind doubling the pack up be a hefty overvolt be revving as high as an f1 engine, I would love to hear a motor capable of spinning up to 20000rpm and not self destructing the scooter sound like an angry dremil.

 

[ElectricGod]

I don't think 48v on this motor will he boring I bet it hits at least 50mph when all done sweet, Mind doubling the pack up be a hefty overvolt be revving as high as an f1 engine, I would love to hear a motor capable of spinning up to 20000rpm and not self destructing the scooter sound like an angry dremil.

I've run it at 48 volts with no load and it's pretty quiet, but that's only 5400 RPM. Torque will be good regardless of the voltage I run at. I'll just need to gear differently.

 

[ElectricGod]

My kick scooter needed some love so I have had to defer this project so my daily ride could be road worthy again. That's about done so back to this project....

U-bolts for securing the motor and driver sprocket adapters are on the way. I still need to test out the 3220 with halls, but that's waiting on the arrival of the motor tester. I'm toying with the thought of getting a much larger hub motor and not going with the 3220. The hub motor would simplify things quite a lot...no gearing, no chain line, no motor mounting, etc. Obviously I am going to mess with voltage anyway, so if I find the hub wont get me to the speed I want, well going to 98 volts will get that done. I'm pretty much against hub motors and I have the 3220's, but I'm also thinking about space limits and what would work best. A 5000 watt hub would get me what I want out of this moped and I eliminate a few complications. As a rock bottom minimum, I'm going to use the 3220 for now and see how that goes. It will probably be really awesome and I wont want to do anything different. I'm also considering using both 3220's in the moped. I've been reading some threads about dual motor set ups and if I use 1:5 scale RC car controllers that can do like 160 amps and then mount them on a much larger heat sink, they will do the trick and I can run without halls. Two 3220's would deliver so much torque that cogging would not be an issue. I've never used a 3220 before so I have no idea really how well even one of them will do. I get what watts means to a BLDC and that the 3220 is supposedly good for 4000+ watts, but then I look at the physical dimensions of the motor and how large the wires are and I get really doubtful. I mean my big block is a 3000 watt inrunner and weighs 2X what a 3220 does and is easily 2X larger as well. I know what it can do and to my feeble mind there's no way a motor half it's physical size will almost double the torque. I have an 80-100 and turnigy 80-160 and they are about the same size as the 3220, but supposedly they can all do 4000 watts. It just seems improbable.

 

[Ianhill]

I'll be honest with you if I could get a powerful hub motor at a decent price I would be very tempted to utilize it, from what ive learnt it will be more efficient than a small can motor and like you say the mounting is a lot more easier.
There's cracking mopeds in the UK i would love to get my hands on, later model E-max 110 and the vmoto's its 48v 4000w mono rear shock look proper but they are normally a fair bit second hand and need some love on the battery and controller front as they run 48v 60ah silicone slas, I wreckon with just with some cheap 20wh lipos and a cheap sunwin on 20s it will reach over 50mph easy with decent range it may be my next project .

 

[ElectricGod]

I'll be honest with you if I could get a powerful hub motor at a decent price I would be very tempted to utilize it, from what ive learnt it will be more efficient than a small can motor and like you say the mounting is a lot more easier.
There's cracking mopeds in the UK i would love to get my hands on, later model E-max 110 and the vmoto's its 48v 4000w mono rear shock look proper but they are normally a fair bit second hand and need some love on the battery and controller front as they run 48v 60ah silicone slas, I wreckon with just with some cheap 20wh lipos and a cheap sunwin on 20s it will reach over 50mph easy with decent range it may be my next project .

I wont be riding off road on this thing so the unsprung weight of a large hub wouldn't be a huge deal. Running an inrunner right at the pivot point on the back end would virtually make the motor "sprung". The only thing I really like about hub motors is that it's in the wheel rather than mounted elsewhere. This makes transferring drive to the tire uber simple, but it also creates several limitations. There's no gearing for the ideal set up. I guess I could rewire for switching from WYE to delta to get better top end. That works for any BLDC. On my kick scooter I tried out a 16T driver and I got no more top end out of the motor than I did with the 15T driver...just more current draw and a hotter motor. As a result I have gone back to the 15T. Oh well all that stellar torque just gets me going quicker. I was already running the best set up for that machine. With a hub, you can't mess with gearing. It is what it is and a small diameter tire needs a hub with a higher Kv or else all you have is stupendous torque, but pathetic top end. With an external motor, you set gearing and voltage to get what you want (within reason). Also, high Kv motors tend to be more efficient than low Kv motors. OK yup...probably wont go the hub motor route, LOL. But if I had the hub motor to try out that had the wattage I wanted, well that would be different!

 

[Ianhill]

Yeah the top speed can be slightly messaged with voltage tyre profiles etc but it is what it is with the hub like u say the weight placement disadvantage etc too doesnt help it but for a moped I think it could work if the perfect hub for ones needs presented itself but once its done it is what it is, I think it wouldn't suit well on a superbike etc but a moped with high centre of gravity doesn't do to well at high speed anway so it a good marrage and thats half the fun we these why they feel good to ride a perfectly setup frame would be so tame at these powers it would cry out for more and feel slow.

 

[ElectricGod]

Yeah the top speed can be slightly messaged with voltage tyre profiles etc but it is what it is with the hub like u say the weight placement disadvantage etc too doesnt help it but for a moped I think it could work if the perfect hub for ones needs presented itself but once its done it is what it is, I think it wouldn't suit well on a superbike etc but a moped with high centre of gravity doesn't do to well at high speed anway so it a good marrage and thats half the fun we these why they feel good to ride a perfectly setup frame would be so tame at these powers it would cry out for more and feel slow.

I've put out feelers for different hub motors in the 3KW+ range and I'll know more soon enough. I would want a hub motor with a fairly high KV for a hub. Lots of watts and a high Kv would make for a decent hub setup. The wheels on the moped are 52 inches around or it takes 1218.5 tire rotations to go 1 mile. So to go 55mph that's 1121 RPM. That would require a hub motor with a 23Kv at 48 volts to get 1121 RPMs. A 30Kv hub at 4000 watts would be nice and powerful and at 48 volts would get a nice solid 60mph....if such a hub motor exists. I guess I could just get a 4 or 5Kw hub and then rewire it for the KV I wanted it it doesn't already exist for a decent price. I'm patient and don't have to solve this "problem" today when I already have two 3220's that will do great.

I'll probably also replace the back wheel with one like I have on the kick scooter just to eliminate the hub from the back end. It will be useless weight back there that wont do anything. The moped sits 8" off the ground and the seat is 31" off the ground. That's a pretty low center of gravity...much lower than any crotch rocket. This thing can be fast and low slung. I'll have to stiffen up the shocks though. They are way too soft. I adjusted the brakes so for mechanical brakes they work really well, but if you really squeeze them to the point of almost locking up, the front end dives pretty badly. Xtreme has a better front set of forks for the XB504 that will fit this moped. I might switch out the forks for the better ones.

I don't think I have ever seen a superbike with a hub. They pretty much all run inrunners or outrunners. The last thing you want is all that spinning mass in the back wheel on a high speed bike motoring along at 100mph or faster. I have seen some very fast bike with hubs, but all that unsprung weight at high speeds isn't the best solution.

 

[ElectricGod]

The motor tester arrived today.

Lyen sells these testers for like $29. I found them on ebay for $12 so guess where I bought mine? Anyway, this is a poorly developed product, but works brilliantly well. Label yours like mine and that will clear up the confusion. Also. google for Lyens manual which is an excellent explanation for what it does. I recommend that anyone who really wants to know what their motor or controller is doing that they buy this. The steer test connectors are for your hall throttle. It's not uber detailed, but at least you can test if your throttle is off, or WOT.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252498298537?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Relabeled for those that don't read Chinglish...

This is the tester on the 3220 checking out the halls. Rotating the armature changes the LEDs. All 3 of them detect correctly. The only issue is the tester doesn't keep the phase LEDs lit so that you can see which hall matches which phase which would be really useful. That way you would know the correct phase is applicable for which hall. As it is, at least you can test the halls to be sure all 3 of them work otherwise the LEDs don't light up. Rotate the armature and watch the LEDs. You should see all 3 LEDs light up. Don't expect them to light in pattern (IE: left to right or one at a time).

 

[ElectricGod]

The adapters for 219 drivers also arrived today. I'm waiting on the u-bolts still, but these two items get me well down the road to being able to put a 3220 on the moped.

I have yet to put together battery packs. Maybe tomorrow...

 

[ElectricGod]

More work done.

I got the rear sprocket mounted and finished testing the 3220 on a Chinese controller like I currently have in the moped. It worked great once I figured out which hall and fields matched up. I need to buy a chain tensioner and some 219 chain before I can even try this out with the 1500 watt controller and SLA's.

This is the rear sprocket mounted on the wheel. I'll be replacing the back wheel with something with no hub motor in it. I'll probably use the same wheel model as is on the blue kick scooter. It is a well made wheel and I have been very pleased with them. The hub creates a little drag in the back wheel. I guess I could use the hub as a generator, but that would just create more drag. I have a cheap freewheel on here for now because I can't get my WI freewheel off the old wheel it's mounted on right now. I need to buy a freewheel socket that fits it so I can remove it with a hammer drill. It's probably a mistake to even bother putting this crappy freewheel on here since later I will have to get it off the wheel to mount the WI freewheel.

This is the 3220 where it will be mounted mounted in the moped. It's just sitting in there right now, but that's approximately where it will go.

 

[ElectricGod]

A little more progress...

I received the driver sprocket adapters on Friday. They weren't made quite right. There wasn't supposed to be an inner keyway, but the machinist made them wrong. It was supposed to just have a 1/2" ID. He's so used to making adapters with inner keyways, that I think he didn't realize what he did. Oh well...doesn't matter really.

This is the finished parts before assembly. I drilled holes through the adapter and through the motor shaft and out the other side. I tapped the holes straight through for 10/32 threads. I then cut down a couple of 1" long 10/32 set screws to just clear the OD of the adapter.

This is the adapter mounted on the motor. I put some locktite on the stainless set screw threads just to keep them in place, but they will be trapped inside the sprocket so it's very unlikely they will come out.

I installed a 13T driver on the motor which according to my calculations should be pretty fast with an 88T wheel sprocket.

 

[ElectricGod]

I wanted to get this mounted yesterday, but went and took a nap instead. LOL! Woke up way later than expected and didn't get it done.

I have 219 chain coming and a tensioner. I'm not going to fuss with the short drop-outs for the back wheel to try to get the chain tension right. THe chain tensioner on my kick scooter is working so well, that there's no point. I don't ever mess with getting the rear wheel straight and the chain tensioned anymore. I have tensioners on either side of the axel set to dead straight line for the sprockets. The actual chain tesnsioner takes out all the slack...much better and easier way to go and easy to adjust! The only gripe I have with the tesioner is that it's designed to pull in, not push out. IE: if the arm doesn't clear whatever you have mounted the tensioner to sufficiently to take out all the slack, well it won't work. If these things could be switched to "push" instead of "pull", that would be great. As it is, On the kick scooter, I used that adjustable plate to hold the tensioner down. I'll have to do the same thing on the moped most likely.

 

[Ianhill]

I like the sprocket adapter good work, A bigger chain is next on my list the existing t8f is on its last legs so rather than spend money down the wrong avenue I'll get all new 419 ive spotted that the KTM 50 sx 2009 uses a 15mm oval/H sprocket so a adapter like yours will work a treat with that for me I'll be inline for uping the power then.

 

[ElectricGod]

I like the sprocket adapter good work, A bigger chain is next on my list the existing t8f is on its last legs so rather than spend money down the wrong avenue I'll get all new 419 ive spotted that the KTM 50 sx 2009 uses a 15mm oval/H sprocket so a adapter like yours will work a treat with that for me I'll be inline for uping the power then.

I think you mean 219 chain?

I looked at those mopeds you mentioned earlier. The one with the mono shock looks quite nice. I wish I had one to mod! If you get one, please post a thorough vlog about it. One of these days...I'll get to post on your thread!

Yeah t8f is pretty wimpy and noisy. The Currie I just picked up for uber cheap has even lighter chain on it than t8f. I have no idea what size it is, but it looks like jewelry next to 219. Anyway, It's even noisier than t8f. 219 is so quiet, strong and durable...I will probably adapt everything in the future to it. When I was running my 2000 watt BOMA, I broke the T8F several times and I was peaking out at 3000 watts. 219 will take like 10,000 watts. I want to try that out! The short version is...just say no to T8F...go with KART chain and sprockets. Even my BOMA motors are getting adapters for 219 drivers.

I'll probably post something in the for sale section to get rid of my T8F stuff. I have all the driver sprockets ever made and 2 or 3 wheel sprockets. I might just as well get rid of my old scooter wheels in the process. They wont ever get used for anything. Geez I have collected a lot of miscellaneous parts since starting into this hobby. I have like 5 free wheels, 3 spare wheels, 10 motors, 5 or 6 controllers, tons of good SLA's, probably 700 18650's, a load of different brake calipers...and so on. Spare parts makes adapting something easy, but my pile of stuff is growing rapidly. I recently dropped a few hundred into 6,8,10,12,14 and 26 awg silicon and teflon wire in typically used colors. It's good having what you need, but then where to keep it when you don't need it!

 

[Ianhill]

I'm on the hunt for a emax, I'll get one sooner or later, ill do a thread on it get some good pics up inside the hub etc will take time proberly to source all the bits mind to run it 72v 5000w and a decent charging system.
The hub uses 85amps at 48v factory and gets to 60kph no quicker than my standup scooter really but at 72v and 65amps I'll be around 100kph just need to lose weight to make up for the current drop and that won't be hard as they pack 100kilos of SLA on them.
My t8f makes pinking noises pulling off its due to fling off and Its only 1.8kw when I pull off.

 

[ElectricGod]

SLA's lol...used to be worth having like 10+ years ago, but now days...no way...there's so many better choices.

The emax has a great battery bay under the seat. They clearly designed that space to hold loads of batteries. This would be a great project bike. With it already being electric and pretty fast already, this would be a cool upgrade project. Get it running at 100 volts or even 82 volts and then switch from wye to delta on the fly and this ride would be really fast.

 

[Ianhill]

I feel your need for speed, but with the budget I'll be 24s max.

 

[ElectricGod]

I feel your need for speed, but with the budget I'll be 24s max.

24S is 98 volts....close enough to 100v.

It's already 72 volts (20S in lithium parlance) with all those SLA's so another bump (20 to 24S) should make it nice and fast.

 

[ElectricGod]

Parts have been trickling in...
I have the new LED headlights, side lights and power distribution block. All that stuff will get put in place soon enough. I need to pull out some of the existing light bulbs so I can determine what kind of bulb they are and then replace them with LED versions. I have the castle socket for removing my freewheel on its way along with 219 chain, tensioner and various other parts. I found a couple of nice watt meters on ebay, so I bought one of each of those. Hopefully they will be better than my current favorite watt meter. The current one has a nice battery guage on it and it displays a percentage of full, but both of those things are always way off. The meter never resets to 100% when I charge and despite having set the low voltage on it, it never gets the percentage or bar graph right. I just ignore those things on the LCD and look at the voltage and amps. At least those are accurate.

I need to take apart the 3220 again. I secured the halls with a little super glue. I didn't want to epoxy them in if I had them in the wrong place, but they are good to go, so it's time to make them permanent. I'll take some pics of the hall placements when I have it apart. I should have done it when I put them in the motor, but I didn't want to take pics of something that was wrong.