E-Bikes for Idiots

Hi Rick,

Of course I'm making it more difficult than it needs to be. If I really wanted to simplify things I could just hire someone to push me around everywhere, or *drive* a car! But that's not the point of this. I want to build a bike with most, if not all, of the gear integrated into the frame. Nicks townie build really is inspiring.

I don't want to have to lug round a load of batteries in my back-pack, I don't want to set my bike on fire with lipos (because I'm the kind of guy who will!).

However, I will be buying the infineon controller, 2806 or 2807 motor, cycle analyst, torque arms, thudbuster, rear mirrors, powerful light, new front suspension forks, and disk brakes.

But I'll be building a custom frame housing to keep the juice. I'm 100% positive it'll get me to work, and most likely back again. If not, it's not a big deal. I'll just buy more A123 cells and fill the whole damn frame with em!

If I really wanted to push it I could probably fit 30aH worth of cells in there.

I know it's not the simplest of options, but I've got the money, the time (when I move there), and geeks to help me (I work for a tech company), and there's plenty of bay area e-bikers.

200 A123 cells are now reserved for me, so now I'm spending my weekends learning to solder, form wood into nice boxes, and researching every thing I'll need to know to build this.

My policy is simple, Do it 'Right' first time. I know building the 10P packs is going to be a ball-ache, but screw it. I'll have a garage, plenty of spare cells and time to learn and practice. I'll get my dream bike, it's just take longer. But I'd rather take longer to do it, and build something truly awesome.
 
You can do it right the the first time, by following hundreds who did it right before you. Makes perfect sense.

You don't need more controller, unless you just want to spin the rubber off your tires. 130 pounds, no problemo for the stock controller. Generic ebike kits, and pingbatteries have worked very very well for me, for oh,,,, three years, about 8000 miles. Only about 12000 miles to go before my pingbatteries finally wear out. But maybe more, since I've treated em pretty good.

But I do totally understand your need to do it MORE POWER, Grunt Grunt Grunt. So the 35 amp controller will need a better battery, like the a123's you bought.

The rest of the kit though, is easily avalible from ebikes-ca. It's childishly simple also, to put a lyens controller on a stock 9 c motor from whoever. Then you can get the programing cable, and have hours and hours of fun making it more complicated for the pure joy of it.

20 ah of battery should be all you need for both ways riding. Hills would change that, but 13 miles, even hauling ass, is only going to take about 8 ah max.
 
Thanks dogman,

Without this forum I wouldn't have a clue where to start. I feel like I've learned so much already. I've even started following the thread on the Goodrum BMS (which is looking very promising). My policy has always been that I can learn anything with enough time, coffee and internet access. This is no exception.

Again, I've got to thank members like yourself, doctorbass, ypedal, steveo etc for the time you guys have put in here. Also, the youtube videos I've been watching are fantastic. Sometimes a video just really helps you understand things better.

There is one more question I have regarding power.

If I went to say 20S instead of 16S (64V, 72V hot off the charger), would I consume more aH per mile? I get that my watts will go up (Watts = Amps x Volts), so I'd be upping the volts, which ups the watts... but would It be more efficient in terms of range to run 16S than 20S, or does it not really make a difference?

I get that this is a newbie question, so if there's a thread explaining how efficiency works regarding changes in voltage feel free to point me there.

Obviously I know that upping the number of cells in parallel will always increase your capacity and therefore range.

Cheers,
 
If I went to say 20S instead of 16S (64V, 72V hot off the charger), would I consume more aH per mile? I get that my watts will go up (Watts = Amps x Volts), so I'd be upping the volts, which ups the watts... but would It be more efficient in terms of range to run 16S than 20S, or does it not really make a difference?

I get that this is a newbie question, so if there's a thread explaining how efficiency works regarding changes in voltage feel free to point me there.

Obviously I know that upping the number of cells in parallel will always increase your capacity and therefore range.

Higher voltage is always more efficient but, we are talking ebikes so... No not really. The numbers say yes because you actually have more watt hours on board but you would have to keep the speed down to realize the benefit. Can you do that?? :twisted: :mrgreen: The extra wind resistance by itself would probably kill any extra range.
 
The efficiency arguments always crack me up. You want efficient? slow down. Wind resistance is the demon of efficient transportation, followed by weight.

My real world evaluation is done at 20 mph. At 20 mph the difference in ranges has always been less than a mile, provided the same WH was used. This stayed true for all the smaller motors I've tried. Only the monster 5304 motor used more, and that was attributable to the amps it pulled starting up.
But changing voltage on the same motor seems to have zero real world significant effect, provided speed, weather , route etc remain same.

What does tend to happen though, is you increase voltage, or the amps of the controller, and you tend to take of a bit more snappy. You tend to ride a bit faster, and there goes efficiency.

Personally, I found my most efficient rides to be those limited to 20 mph, even if they had respectable 1000 watts of power. I just have a baaaad right hand. so for me, the efficient route is a slower winding motor at 48v. Power there when you need it to climb a hill, but speed limited so I don't let the speed creep up and up.

Controllers do run cooler when the aren't PWM'ing. So a slower motor ridden full throttle may be more efficient in terms of wearing out the controller.

The really really great thing about ebikes though, is a really nasty inefficient high amp high volt rig is still able to go a really long way on a very lightweight lithium battery. Who cares if you can go twice as far at 20 mph if you are going less distance than you have avaliable range? The energy cost difference is like 10 cents instead of 5 cents per trip.
 
elliothaughin said:
I'm currently weighing up places to live. The shortlist is Palo Alto, San Jose, Santa Clara
Click to expand...

Santa Clara is nice, central in the valley.
but Palo Alto is central in the bay area (closer to sf) and a great place if you got money to spend :D

valley is pretty flat...

summer is coming... very tempted to get a motorcycle for commuting...
 
So, to summarize for the newbie... Higher voltage is more efficient, but only if you ride the same speed/acceleration as a lower voltage would give you?
If you're throttle happy, you'll be worse off with the higher voltage?

Just found out I wouldn't need to commute in every day, I could do it just once a week if I wanted. Means I might look at moving to the city instead. Although I imagine San Francisco itself isn't the easiest place to cycle in!
 
elliothaughin said:
So, to summarize for the newbie... Higher voltage is more efficient, but only if you ride the same speed/acceleration as a lower voltage would give you?
If you're throttle happy, you'll be worse off with the higher voltage?

Just found out I wouldn't need to commute in every day, I could do it just once a week if I wanted. Means I might look at moving to the city instead. Although I imagine San Francisco itself isn't the easiest place to cycle in!
Click to expand...

OMG what a nightmare Frisco would be to bike in. Buy the biggest direct drive motor you can find and stay away from geared hubs.. they won't survive those occasional 15% grades up there :p

Your efficiency will suck bad, it's no different than the situation in a car. A 100 horsepower car will be using almost 100 horsepower on hills like those. On a flat, that same car will be using maybe 20-33 horsepower.
 
elliothaughin said:
Out of interest, how much range would you expect to get out of 23aH if you were going easy on the throttle?
Click to expand...

BTW.. this depends entirely on what motor you are using and how fast you are going.

My old 250w kit ( 36v, 14a ), did 18mph max, on 1.25 wide tires.. i could do about 14 miles on 5ah.
My new 700w kit ( 36v, 37a ) does 28mph max on 1.95 wide tires, can do about 11 miles on 5ah.

The aerodynamic penalty is harsh for going over 20mph.. that's for sure.
 
Yeah, a SFcity hill bike is a totally different animal. A yuba mundo with stokemonkey kit might the the winner for there. Or at least a crystalyte with really slow winding like the 5305, or maybe methys new clytes. I think he's got a few of those in slow winding too.
 
Hey guys,

It's been a while since I posted here!

Things are going great in the new job and I think I've settled on the San Jose area as a place to live.
Overall the whole valley looks pretty flat, perfect for e-bikes!

I know I can fit 16S10P of the A123 cells in the frame, but I think I might be able to fit 20S10P in there.

That would give me a nice boost to 66V, or 74V hot off the charger at 23aH (1,518wH nominal, 1,702wH 'hot'). Since lyen and methods are both in the same area I think a Lyen controller with a the new HS35 Motor from methods will be a better way to go with this. Can't beat a local supplier when it comes to these things!

Just got my first pay, so I've shoved my first $2,000 away in the savings to get the bike account ready for June! 1.7kwh will be awesome!
 
So i live in SF and did a build very similiar to his for my wife a few months back.

She was set on the electra daisy...really beautiful girly bike.

I was opposed to it at first ( i could never ride it) but we ended up building for her.

We didnt want to lose the 3 speed internal gear hub it comes with in the back so we opted for bmc 600 v2t in the front...

We put the battery and 35am crystallite controller in the basket up front.

The big problem with the build was it doesnt have front brake...that might be problem with townie as well...so illia from bikes sf did a custom front brake adapter up front so could put a avid bb up front...that ended up saving her ass a few times.

THe one thing with this bike is we mounted all the electronics including the battery up front so it is front heavy...but rides fine regardless.

Anyway with no suspension that bike is no problem. My wife rides with the guys and has taken this thing up some rugged trails. She took it all the way to the top of mount tam on the railroad grade....i thought it would fall apart but it didnt.

I have a lot of repect for electra now....great frames...strong...lightweight...good looking...affordable....nothing bad to say.

I gotta say we were really afraid before this build...but now that it is built we are really happy with the bike and how it rides...

I will post pics later of wifes bike...it is really a looker.
 
Here is wifey bike....electra Daisy in all its glory...

We got about 500 miles on this bike...no problems...

600w bmc torque motor..

35amp crystallite controller...

48v 10ah batteryspace lipo battery with bms....All in the front...

Rides like a dream despite being front heavy.

Of course we dont take it off seroius off roads and jumping...but it does great on some fairly rugged fireroads...believe it or not..with no suspension!
 

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elliothaughin said:
Hey guys,

It's been a while since I posted here!

Things are going great in the new job and I think I've settled on the San Jose area as a place to live.
Overall the whole valley looks pretty flat, perfect for e-bikes!

I know I can fit 16S10P of the A123 cells in the frame, but I think I might be able to fit 20S10P in there.

That would give me a nice boost to 66V, or 74V hot off the charger at 23aH (1,518wH nominal, 1,702wH 'hot'). Since lyen and methods are both in the same area I think a Lyen controller with a the new HS35 Motor from methods will be a better way to go with this. Can't beat a local supplier when it comes to these things!

Just got my first pay, so I've shoved my first $2,000 away in the savings to get the bike account ready for June! 1.7kwh will be awesome!
Click to expand...

I know Im a little late but I just saw your post now.

With a budget that high I would certainly go for Hal9000 frame, good DH fork and 24s 20ah of either headaways or A123 battery with watever motor you feel like.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=20321&hilit=greyborg
regards
 
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