E-bikes not allowed on bus-mounted rack

[Ultraman]

The large inter-city train and bus company in southern Ontario, GO, installed bike racks on their buses about 2 years ago. They recently started enforcing a policy that electric bikes of any kind aren't allowed on the racks. This complicates my commute a fair bit, and it's a stupid policy in my mind, so I wrote an email trying to get them to change it.

Let me know if you've come up against similar "blanket" policies where bus companies see all electric bikes on racks as bad. The letter's below, and I attached a photo of the bike. I'll post again if I get a reply from them.

ELECTRIC BIKES ON GO BUS RACKS

I am writing as a customer to ask you to explain and, if possible, reconsider your policy on electric bicycles and bus-mounted bike racks. I am a regular GO user, travelling from Toronto to Hamilton several times per week. I genuinely appreciate the addition of bike racks to the front of GO busses over the past few years. This has allowed me to extend my commute by bringing my bike onto the train, transferring it from to bus, and riding from the station to my final destination. Admirable bicycle-friendly efforts such as racks and dedicated bicycle locking areas at stations prove the commitment that GO shows to sustainable, low-emission transportation.

Recently however, it appears as if a no-tolerance policy is being enforced around electric bicycles traveling on bus-mounted Byk-Rak carriers. When asked, drivers have various explanations for this policy, including “They’re too heavy” and “Public safety.” Each reason is valid of course, although it appears as if the policy is being applied without attention to distinctions between different types of electric vehicles.

There are two basic types of electric bicycles. Electric scooter-type vehicles have small wheel diameters, are heavy (generally over 100 lbs) and form factors that do not lend themselves to loading or unloading from a rack. In contrast, “regular” bicycles can be converted to use an electric motor. This involves installing a motor, small electrical controller and wiring onto a store-bought bicycle. This conversion will typically add 18 pounds to the bicycle weight. Battery systems are then added, which can vary from 5 to 20 pounds when installed. Battery systems are removable and can be carried by the rider.

The bicycle I take on the GO is a converted bike. It weighs 48 lbs, reflecting the 30 lb weight of the bike and 18 lb weight of the motor system. I have attached a photo of the bike to give you a sense of it’s appearance. The large hub on the front wheel is the motor. I can provide higher resolution photos if needed. Here is a link to the vendor where my conversion kit was purchased: http://www.e-bikekit.com/.

The system used by GO to carry bicycles on busses is the Byk-Rak, also used by a number of municipal transport systems in Canada including the TTC and HSR. I would draw your attention to page 7 of the Byk-Rak manual (http://www.byk-rak.com/pdf/Byk-RakManual.pdf) in which it states:

Technical Features Con’t Advantages
• The Byk-Rak is constructed to support over • This allows the carrier to easily hold heavy
250 pounds in the deployed position. bikes and provides for misuse.

I recognize that the practical tolerances for loaded racks would be less than 250 lbs during sustained use, although again the bicycle I am riding (and the vast majority of converted electric bicycles) weights under 50 lbs.

Regarding public safety, I cannot think of an reasonable argument to restrict converted electric bicycles from being carried on racks. There is nothing inherent to the motor system that is dangerous in any way. There is no explosion risk, no toxins, no risk of shock and the entire system is permanently fixed to the bicycle with metal bolts.

My aim in this email is twofold. I would ask you to reconsider the policy disallowing all electric bicycles on your bus-mounted racks, recognizing specifically the distinction between converted vehicles and purpose-built scooter-type electric bikes. Secondly, I would like to resume bringing my bicycle on my commute. If you could consider sending me an email or letter exempting my low-weight electric bike from the general policy until such time that the policy is changed, I would appreciate this.

Sincerely,
> signature removed

 

[thewmatusmoloki]

You should be a politician.
That letter was very well written and convinced me anyway. :wink:

Each reason is valid of course, although it appears as if the policy is being applied without attention to distinctions between different types of electric vehicles.

That bit might work against you though, telling them that the're reasons are valid.

I really hope that you get somewhere with this.

All the best
Matt

 

[Ultraman]

You should be a politician.

Thanks for the thumbsup Matt, maybe I should think about running for City Council with an "E-bikes for everyone" platform.

That bit might work against you though, telling them that the're reasons are valid.

Ya, I agree. I'm just too conciliatory sometimes. I'm actually sneaking the bike onto the racks most of the time, and it's only the occasional driver that catches me.

 

[thewmatusmoloki]

E-bikes here are allowed on our electric trains (outside of peak times), thus extending my useable range by hundreds of kilometers, which is really cool , I don't know how long that situation will last for though.
If everyone started doing it, I reckon that they would put the brakes on that allowance in short order.

On the other hand, I wish there was a power point on the train so I could recharge and have another 50 kay's range when getting off. Hmmmm , mabey I should ask you to draught me a letter. :lol:

 

[John in CR]

When it comes to mass transit, I disagree with anything done for the convenience of the few. IOW buses shouldn't have bike racks at all, since there's obviously not room for everyone on the bus to have a bike. Plus loading and unloading can too easily create delays. Next some will want wheelchair lifts and special areas on the buses to accommodate wheelchairs. What about some extra wide seats for the obese, and seats with extra leg room for very tall people? Where does it end?

Build your bike for sufficient range, so you don't need to ride the bus. Buses are for transporting people, not vehicles.

 

[dogman dan]

Valid argument for no bike racks, but it won't fly for why an Ebike under 100 pounds that fits the rack can't ride. Some ebikes have a battery behind the seat and might fit poorly and fall off, but not the usual converted bike.

Here in my town, the local tv station has an investigation team of reporters that would eat this story up like steak. I have really enjoyed using the bus bike racks here when I break down, and when I didn't have the range yet.

 

[thewmatusmoloki]

Hey John,
those are good points.
But you are no fun at all when it comes to intergrating our vehicals in a harmonious way with existing mass transportation.
Which is gonna have to happen eventually.

What about some extra wide seats for the obese

This is a hot topic around the world at the moment with airlines, they are thinking about charging obese people the price of 2 seats. (extra weight, more fuel needed, less room for other passengers)

 

[dumbass]

Hey John,
those are good points.
But you are no fun at all when it comes to intergrating our vehicals in a harmonious way with existing mass transportation.
Which is gonna have to happen eventually.

What about some extra wide seats for the obese

This is a hot topic around the world at the moment with airlines, they are thinking about charging obese people the price of 2 seats. (extra weight, more fuel needed, less room for other passengers)

Many US airlines already do charge for 2 seats. the best I know the airlines that have this rule require a person to be able to use a standard seat belt without an extension and to be able to sit without raising the arm rest. Now I really don't personally care about how large a person is but I have had situations on planes where the person or worse persons next to be couldn't fit the seat and took half of mine. So I totally agree they need to ether charge them for the second seat or don't allow them on the plane. If your taller then normal they charge extra for your clothing. So why not if your to big the other way too?

 

[mwkeefer]

I feel your pain with the Bus system up there - here in my local community (serviced by SEPTA) most but not all busses have racks, even then - I've had drivers pass right by me (with a normal, smallish bike) instead of stopping... Not my "local" route, but sure enough it's happened and at the worst times.

Because of the lack of stowage on busses and even more because I prefer to travel Amtrak which as Kingfish (kingpin) has recently demonstrated for all of us, works well enough if you box up your bike but if you want to hop and go... a folding bike it must be

I have a variety of folders depending on the circumstance... if I am commuting alone (ie: not taking my son out with me to the zoo or somthing on the bike) then I ride a 20" folder (still various models) and otherwise I pull the 26" folder.

I've had Amtrak specifically give me a hard time once about the ebike argument, I followed the same suit as you and contacted the management since there is NO official policy on eBikes within Amtrak but all the same... My packs are hidden, my installs are stealth and if needed I can always pull the messenger bag, pannier pack, trunk or whatever which does carry the packs for normal rides off and carry them on same as the bike (pre-folded).

If your transit system is anything like mine (and most it seems) a folding bike can get on at anytime, peak or non peak and regardless of seating

You have done just about all you can with regard to your own pub trans system - other than going stealth with a removeable pack you have disconnected before transit, then I don't think their e-bike argument holds valid...

after all an ebike without batteries is just a bike

-Mike

 

[thewmatusmoloki]

Agreed. (dumbass)
Everytime I travel on a plane I seem to end up with a 100+ kg person sitting next to me and half in my seat.
I swear that the plane was rolling to my side (hmmmz, could've been my overactive imagination though.)

 

[Lessss]

E-bikes are competition to buses, they don't want to encourage the competition.

 

[mwkeefer]

Ultraman,

There is one area where they could argue "Hazzard" or "Illegal" and that would be a Lithium based battery pack... email your vendor and request the UN certification for the pack - I believe he will have a sheet of paper which lists it has passed the required testing and is compliant. That would only remove the one obstacle or objection they really could stand behind (which they haven't mentioned yet, don't pre-emptively address it either) being the transport of Lithium / Hazardous Materials.

I'm not sure how Canada does it, but head to your local Inspection (automotive) or weighing station (highways) and have the bike in full trim weighed. You will want to take a Boilerplate letter along with you basically stating that it weighs _____ Kilos and then have that certified and signed by the authority station - they will do it if you just ask (I've done this at times).

I will assume your bus uses a maximum of a 2x bike rack? (same as we have btw)

Now given that assumption and the "conservative" 250lb rating - let's say 100 lbs is fair game per bike as a seriously safe maximum....

Give the transit line a call and get their fax # and / or email address but under this guise:
--

Hello, I am planning a cross country trip on my bicycle (which means major baggage and gear attached, far more than any e-bike I've seen yet - except maybe AmberWolf's) and wanted to inquire about using your bus service route #{insert connecting route numbers here} for a portion of my trip. My bicycle will weigh about 80lbs (maximum, you could go 90 but saying 100 hits a mental block) fully loaded but by the time I reach your area probably down to 70lbs (food/water/consumables).

Could you tell me briefly any rules or regulations which may be applicable to me, I sure wouldn't want to get to the edge of your service area and be planning a rest period to hit a snag boarding your bus line?

Also do you have an appropriate office, individual or department for handling bicycles on your busses? If so could I have the phone, fax and email addresss for that office.

--

Once you have this - I can almost guarantee:
1.) Your bike will not be an issue (as an 80lb commuter on a trip)
2.) You can probably get them to send you somthing in writing regarding the weight being okay, based on the above script (feel free to deviate)

Now, your final step (since I actually went back and re-read your post) is to ensure your battery remains removable (the sliding bracket it came with from e-bikekit) and getting a large transit / pannier bag. The bag can remain empty in transit until you need to board a bus, then just remove the battery and insert into the transit bag (which you removed from your rack before the bus arrived).

This way, your bike is not an electric - there is no battery and no power, the motor is now not a motor but a resistive, weather proof hub brake system. You will already have a paper indicating the gross weight certified by some authority and also a letter from the bus company (or atleast their own rules, etc) which says the bike your putting on there is within the weight requirement to be allowed on the bus.

If they don't see the battery, seriously... your talkin about a bike which weighs about 12lbs more than stock and it really is just a bike.

The other option - you can simply claim the front hub is not just a brake but also a generator for powering up iPhone, iPod, Cell Phone, bike lights - print out a page about the Biologics gene hub and be sure to carry that paper with you.

I'd like to see them attempt to refuse me passage with my bikes, seriously even the non-folding ones!

One last tip... removing the white lettering on the motor which indicates it's a motor may indeed go a long, long way

Hope this helps!
-Mike

 

[jag]

First: The other Toronto ES members should write letters similar to your excellent letter to make your local bus company at least realize that there are a fair number of concerned eBikers out there.

Second: I think this is just one among other issues that reinforces the need for a distinction between eBikes and eScooters.
eBike: Loosely something with the weight, shape and look of a bike. Damage and impact energy in a crash should not be substantially higher than with a bike. Allowed wherever bikes are.
eScooter: Can have any weight, travel mainly on streets and allowed to go up to reasonable street speed (40 or 50km/h).

Third: It also brings up how different parts of government are inconsistent. Both US and Canada defines an eBike to be a bike, not a motor vehicle on the federal level in an effort to make adoption easy and consistent, but local politicians and administrators counter act this with a myriad of short sighted local prohibitions.

Here in Edmonton there are often signs saying "no motorized vehicles". So while the federal law says an eBike is not a motor vehicle, and to a common person "motor vehicle" and "motorized vehicle" would mean the same thing, it is not clear to me if legally the meanings are the same. Has this ever been clarified? Ie someone who was ticketed for say riding on a "non-motorized" bike path challenged the ticket in court?

 

[Ultraman]

Thanks for the excellent replies guys. And Mike, your plan sounds foolproof. Having a letter, preferably laminated and in a nice binder , would be the golden ticket I'm looking for, and your idea to secure one by priming the bus company with a pre-ride request is brilliant. The other work-arounds make sense too (battery safety cert, stealifying the bike ahead of time). A folder would be a nice idea too. It's just that I'd like to keep riding my bike on my commute mostly because it's fun and quick, and the policy I'm addressing needs clarification and revising.

John, I see your point about accommodating vehicles on buses. The transit systems in lots of places have already put time and expense into this, presumably in response to "green" initiatives and govt cost offsets. GO is semi-public and accountable to lots of people. As they're already extended a hand to me and my ilk by installing a rack, I'm going to milk that as much as I can. If they take the racks off because they find themselves going too far to suit the needs of a few, fair enough. So far it's very rare that I can't get my bike on the 2-bike rack of any bus, city or inter-city, because it's full. We'll see how that pans out if it gets more popular. And I could extend range, but my commute is about 100km 3 times a week and I need the time to work on the train and bus.

And Jag, I like the idea of other Toronto and area riders writing similar letters if it gets things going. I haven't heard back from the fine people at GO, but as they're accountable they gotta send me some kind of response.

 

[mwkeefer]

Ultraman,

I forgot one round about - a Doctor's Letter, yep it still works to this day... If you can find a doctor who will write (or actually just sign) a letter stating that for medical reasons (perhaps you have intermittent ambulatory turrets syndrome, who knows.. maybe for phys therapy) you must ride a bicycle which can assist and / or take over the task of pedaling for excersice... well being publically funded I'm sure you have handicap / disabled seating - this is a similar thing, I had to use with my goped back in the day sometimes (nerve damage, electronic assistance device).

Stealthing and pre-authorization is your best bet - make as few waves as possible but be ready to swim like hell should the need arise!

Yes, laminate a copy (keep the original home) of the weight cert and the letter from GO about using their busses with weight of 80lb (which you will clearly be below), also keep a paper copy of each (maybe 2) with you to give to nosy, annoying or otherwise problem drivers.

The trick is, even if the "policy" is NO... you present Driver Joe with:
1.) Weight certificate
2.) Letter from GO with regards to weight
3.) Absence of battery (which an eBike would obviously have, your's doesn't since it's a generator hub)

and what's he going to say? 99% of the time, if your cool and smooth and don't make a big deal (with a stealthy bike) then you can just toss it on there and jump in the bus... the 1% of drivers who would still give you crap, using the above will handle most of them at the door.

Folding bikes are actually quite nice for this purpose regardless of their size, my 20" ers are easier to travel with but the 26" jack is almost as easy and takes about 50 seconds to get into most compact form.. TBPH - I wouldn't even need to go through all the above rigameral for taking the Jack, the pack is Lipo and hidden in a topeak handlebar bag which is mounted to a V Boss front rack... All my cables run through twist cover or painted self adhesive conduits (the type you use for hiding wiring on walls in your house, from home depot) - the front hub is geared so a tad smaller than the DD 9C version I believe you have but with a disc brake attached... and the white lettering removed, nobody even notices most of the time... when they do, I explain that the hub provides me a weather proof brake in case of mechanical failure and also charges my accessories (iphone, headlight, tail lights, etc) - Not once has anyone (not even police who just though the bike was cool looking - and could imagine it with POLICE on the side in white) noted it was an eBike unless they hear it powered up. Heck half the time, nobody realizes the Jack is even a folding bike... heck you could distract the driver just by saying it's a folder and quickly showing the frame fold release, they would be like.. "okay" and not bother asking anything more... well maybe that's just Septa

Hope this works out for you!
-Mike

 

[John in CR]

Hey John,
those are good points.
But you are no fun at all when it comes to intergrating our vehicals in a harmonious way with existing mass transportation.
Which is gonna have to happen eventually.

I didn't think my post would make many friends, but unless you mean integration on the roadways, I disagree. Like I said before, mass transit is for moving people, not vehicles other than some special purpose train cars like part of the train under the English channel. Even with tiniest folders made electric just imagine the cluster frock of 30 people on the bus having them. If you want to use mass transit that's great, then push for better coverage. It's sad that a developing country like Costa Rica has a vastly greater coverage with it's bus system than the US and Canada combined. It would be difficult to find a location on a public road that doesn't either have bus service directly or is further than 500 meters from one that does. My wife and kids ride buses all the time.

Personally I wouldn't be caught dead in one. Since I turned 15 and bought a car, I've enjoyed absolute freedom of transportation, and look at mass transit as just another regular payment to the man. I see ebikes as a sustainable and fun form of personal transportation that is an alternative to mass transit, not something that should be part of it. If you live so far from work that an ebike can't get you there, then get a life and move home or move work. I've never understood anyone willing to give up huge chunks of their waking life transiting to and from work.

 

[John in CR]

As a solution to the original post, just keep your batteries in your backpack, and with it disconnected your bike is no longer an electric bike. Without batteries an ebike is just a pedal bike, a fact no one can argue with. The rule was implemented to keep those electric scooter things with all but useless pedals off the bike racks and out of the trains.

 

[thewmatusmoloki]

I reckon that you'd better not become a polititian there, John.
:wink:

 

[moostrodamus]

I think if you got enough battery you can make it around the city pretty good without needing to put your bike on a bus...I agree with John on that one....however, if you are taking the go bus/train to Hamilton, or Vaughn, or Etobikoke or Missasauga as part of your commute it should be a no brainer to be able to put your bike (or scooter) at least on the train. I imaging as more people start riding electric vehicles they will have a "parking car" for your personal transport, limited only by perhaps a maximum dimension or something similar....a year ago in TO i saw maybe one or two ebikes/scooters on the road tooling around on a Saturday. This year, seems like you see one every two blocks. There is no real e-bike culture yet, no big groups of people riding that can get some political clout via a organization like perhaps "Toronto E-Bikes Riders Association" (T.E.R.A.S.S.)....someone want to start that, anyone eloquent with a political bent? Hmmmm....

just a thought.

Moo

 

[John in CR]

I reckon that you'd better not become a polititian there, John.
:wink:

True, people generally can't handle the cold hard facts.

Instead, you guys get voted in and then hire me to come in and get rid of all the dead unproductive weight on the payroll. Let me handle tracking down and exposing the corruption, and oversee the implementation true accountability in government. Someone like me with real authority in those types of capacities could do more real good than any 100 politicians.

 

[thewmatusmoloki]

Cmon now John , that's a bit off topic, nothing to do with bus mounted racks really.
Quite bizzare in fact.

Instead, you guys get voted in and then hire me to come in and get rid of all the dead unproductive weight on the payroll. Let me handle tracking down and exposing the corruption, and oversee the implementation true accountability in government. Someone like me with real authority in those types of capacities could do more real good than any 100 politicians.

- wtf ?

 

[FMB42]

E bikes, in the Americas, are definitely in their "infancy" and, as such, have not meet the general acceptance and/or the "understanding" that they deserve. Many people, particularly in Government positions, have yet to take into account the benefits and/or the regulations that pertain to E bikes in particular and, E vehicles in general. These people just think that if it has a "motor" it, therefore, must be a "motor vehicle" (as per State and Federal laws and regulations). These false assumptions and "miss understandings", of course, bring a host of problems to those of us who use E bikes. These problems" and miss-understandings will, of course, take time to address and/or rectify.

As for buses, all I can say is that they are not a reliable form of transportation here in northern California. I had a job in the Bay Area that was just a block or two from BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit). I figured that I could ride the County bus the 3 or so miles to the BART station near my residence and then take BART the 30 or so miles to my place of work...

Well, I often spent more time waiting for late and/or "no show" buses than I did riding BART itself. It finally got to the point that I just gave up on the bus system and drove my truck to the BART station. However, the cost of parking (coupled with the hassle of finding a "spot") eventually forced me to drive my truck to and from work.

 

[John in CR]

Cmon now John , that's a bit off topic, nothing to do with bus mounted racks really.
Quite bizzare in fact.

Instead, you guys get voted in and then hire me to come in and get rid of all the dead unproductive weight on the payroll. Let me handle tracking down and exposing the corruption, and oversee the implementation true accountability in government. Someone like me with real authority in those types of capacities could do more real good than any 100 politicians.

- wtf ?

Just a response to your

I reckon that you'd better not become a polititian there, John.
:wink:

It looks like someone's bizarre meter needs a recalibration. :wink:

 

[swbluto]

When it comes to mass transit, I disagree with anything done for the convenience of the few. IOW buses shouldn't have bike racks at all, since there's obviously not room for everyone on the bus to have a bike. Plus loading and unloading can too easily create delays. Next some will want wheelchair lifts and special areas on the buses to accommodate wheelchairs. What about some extra wide seats for the obese, and seats with extra leg room for very tall people? Where does it end?

The buses in my local jurisdicture feature all that which you've just mentioned. The front is reserved for handicap and the elderly, with a wheelchair lift and a special strap-down area for wheelchairs, the back seats are situated sideways and forwards without interference in front so that poeple have extra room, fat people take up multiple seats anyways, and there's bicycle racks on boards. Does it create delays? For a wheelchair, yes, an extra two minutes on average. A bicycle typically adds 10 seconds. And guess what? It works. (Although I wish more wheelchair people would use the paratransit bus, but I've heard horror stories about its promptness.)

But, if anyone is taking the bus in my area, they really aren't trying to get somewhere fast to begin with... Which is why it isn't really heavily used. It might be more heavily used in CR, I'd imagine so the convenience for the few could really impose an inconvenience to the many (one fat person = one less person aboard).

 

[John in CR]

Of course it's heavily used here, and buses need to generally be on time due to the long rainy season. Throw a few wheelchairs and a few bikes into the mix for each bus and the whole system would really suck. Serving special interests has a place in society, but should never be to the detriment of the masses, especially when it comes to transit. Mass transit needs to be a well oiled on time machine that people can rely on or they won't use it. The things mentioned can only be a detriment to overall service and costs.