E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

[voicecoils]

Ouch Jay, Ouch:

Phwoar, tore his balls off Brutal. You're getting off light my friend :lol:
...
Keeping a motor cool will allow you to run it out side it's efficiency zone for longer, giving that extra torque that us side cover drilling hotrodders crave but it's the well documented story of diminishing returns.
...
If you want to be really hipster get yourself a nice little 408

Not only do the returns diminish as the input power rises, they will diminish to zero - the point at which no amount of extra input power provides any increase in output power whatsoever. At that point you're just torturing the poor motor for no good reason

Hipster 408? I've got one, been waiting for it to come back into fashion :lol:

 

[Kepler]

"408" My very first hub motor. Those were the days.

 

[1abv]

Found this….
could be interesting for those sticking w mtg setup…basically tubliss for bicycles..

http://www.electricbikeaction.com/a-dual-chamber-tire-system-could-eliminate-a-major-headache/

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Had a ripper of a weekend. Kiwiev and I met up down in Jyndabyne, went for an awesome ride, and did a bunch of work on my Fighter's HS4080 amongst other things.

We managed to replace the axle without too much drama, although it took a huge amount of force to get the busted one out.

Some additional metal was added near the shoulders to add strength and make the fit tighter...it still needs a little filing to make it fit perfect.

Kiwiev also welded on some additional supports to the torque plates.

We cut off the chain tensioners since I don't use them with my derailleur.

Now even if a Hyena rips my nuts of, my wheel ain't falling off! :lol:

Maybe this is something Stealth could do.

I've still got to repair the wires from it falling off, but looking good and I guess that Leaf motor will still be good for lighter duties.

Cheers

 

[Hyena]

Had a ripper of a weekend. Kiwiev and I met up down in Jyndabyne, went for an awesome ride,

Looks like a nice smooth place to hoon around fast. Are they dedicated mtb trails ?
What motors are you running there ?


You can keep your gonads for now
But answer me this:



A: Have you left heatshrink or some other soft of soft shit on your torque plates ? Any coating that deforms that easily serves no purpose and if anything detracts from its usefulness.

B: What is that monstrosity supposed to do ? :lol:
If you wanted to stop any slight rotational movement of the torque plates all you had to do was insert a thin shim along the top edge in that gap. Or if you're trigger happy with the welder then run a fat bead along the top and then file/grind it back to the exact size of the slot. At this late stage of the game I'd be inclined to do as voicecoils suggested and convert them to pinchers. Easily done, cut the back out of your torque plates, weld them into place and then weld a nut top and bottom to each side of the back of the slot and whack a bolt though to pinch down. Not only would this hold your axle tight but the pinch bolts at the end would stop invisible hyenas snatching your back wheel off as you ride past

 

[Cowardlyduck]

LOL, Jay, ever the critic.

A) It's called a fresh bit of paint.

B) It's supposed to work that's what...I'm sure your not that blind. Sure, point taken about the gap (although that's from stock), but the bolt/clamp idea doesn't really follow the KISS principal like the current attempt. I'll see how it goes with what we've done, but if it has any issue's the clamp/bolt idea has some merits, Ill admit...it's just a bit complex

C) Chill out...we're not all perfect like you Jay.

I'm pretty sure they are dedicated MTB trails...Kiwiev can probably answer that. We were both running HS40 motos. The Giant's was freshly vented making a noticeable difference in temps.

Cheers

 

[Jimboyr6]

Come on children play nicely
True that gap aint gonna help but the other welded ends should work if there tight,
Around swing arm,
Not how id do it but hey,,,carry on

 

[Rix]

Had a ripper of a weekend. Kiwiev and I met up down in Jyndabyne, went for an awesome ride, and did a bunch of work on my Fighter's HS4080 amongst other things.https

We managed to replace the axle without too much drama, although it took a huge amount of force to get the busted one out.

Some additional metal was added near the shoulders to add strength and make the fit tighter...it still needs a little filing to make it fit perfect.

[youtube]dWi5kK_RYPM[/youtube]
Kiwiev also welded on some additional supports to the torque plates.
http://s11.postimg]
We cut off the chain tensioners since I don't use them with my derailleur.
[img]http.jpg
Now even if a Hyena rips my nuts of, my wheel ain't falling off! :lol:

Maybe this is something Stealth could do.

I've still got to repair the wires from it falling off, but looking good and I guess that Leaf motor will still be good for lighter duties.

Cheers

CD, very nice vid, I really enjoyed watching that. Its like mixing the woods riding up in Idaho with the desert riding I have here in Nevada. Very nice. With your mods, I like the direction you are going, beef up the axle on the shoulder for more contact surface, Isolating the torque blocks movement, that should help.

 

[kiwiev]

Come on children play nicely
True that gap aint gonna help but the other welded ends should work if there tight,
Around swing arm,
Not how id do it but hey,,,carry on

Hey guys I'll do a Samd here I'm a engineer Mech so the thought was to get the axle to grip further away like a longer wrench to take the extra torque CD is putting thru.
Time will tell if it is beneficial.

Cheers Kiwi

 

[kiwiev]

Had a ripper of a weekend. Kiwiev and I met up down in Jyndabyne, went for an awesome ride, and did a bunch of work on my Fighter's HS4080 amongst other things.https

We managed to replace the axle without too much drama, although it took a huge amount of force to get the busted one out.

Some additional metal was added near the shoulders to add strength and make the fit tighter...it still needs a little filing to make it fit perfect.

[youtube]dWi5kK_RYPM[/youtube]
Kiwiev also welded on some additional supports to the torque plates.
http://s11.postimg]
We cut off the chain tensioners since I don't use them with my derailleur.
[img]http.jpg
Now even if a Hyena rips my nuts of, my wheel ain't falling off! :lol:

Maybe this is something Stealth could do.

I've still got to repair the wires from it falling off, but looking good and I guess that Leaf motor will still be good for lighter duties.

Cheers

CD, very nice vid, I really enjoyed watching that. Its like mixing the woods riding up in Idaho with the desert riding I have here in Nevada. Very nice. With your mods, I like the direction you are going, beef up the axle on the shoulder for more contact surface, Isolating the torque blocks movement, that should help.

Hey Rick

The trails are shared for mtb and walkers, we have over 160km of mtb trails within 40 km from home,
Glad you enjoyed the video.

Cheers Kiwi

 

[Hyena]

LOL, Jay, ever the critic.

Tough love to inspire you to strive for greatness
Kiwi's an engineer, I'm a scientist so I'm programmed to question and critique

point taken about the gap (although that's from stock), but the bolt/clamp idea doesn't really follow the KISS principal like the current attempt. I'll see how it goes with what we've done, but if it has any issue's the clamp/bolt idea has some merits, Ill admit...it's just a bit complex

You guys get points for thinking outside the box, KISS is good and each to their own, but to me it seems you've actually made it needlessly complicated with the external arms. Looking at your pics the centre of the axle hole is barely chewed so it looks like most of the movement is coming from the actual plates having a slight amount of play in the dropout channel. You're going to have to machine that slot longer anyway as soon as your 16mm axle arrives so you may as well just make it open ended and weld it straight to the frame. It'll be stronger, look neater and tidier and be more user friendly.

we're not all perfect like you Jay.

I'm not having a go, I just think if you're going to the effort of doing it, especially given all the hassles you've had, bite the bullet on a permanent solution that will give you no more headaches.
Seeing as you asked If this was my fighter and I didnt want to do pinch bolts I'd do it like this:
Weld in the open slotted plate that essentially then becomes a solid rear dropout. Drill 4 holes in it then have a second plate that bolts onto that one capturing the axle and further preventing rotation. Truth be told just a beefy open slot alone would probably work, but with this you can regen until the cows come home.

The trails are shared for mtb and walkers, we have over 160km of mtb trails within 40 km from home

Sounds awesome! I'm glad someone is getting some use out of the terrain there, from what I've heard the snow season this year was a bit of a non event. It's a bit of a hike for me but one day (hopefully sooner rather than later) I'm planning an ebike road trip (by car/van) from Sydney to Melb and want to do all the cool rides like this along the way Just gotta work on a 12v charger now so it recharges off the car between stops - with minor mods I'm hoping the adaptto charging coil plugged into the trailer plug will achieve this.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I 'think' I wore him down...at last a semi respectful reply.

I've got a second pair of torque blocks that I'll use for the 16mm axle. No need to change this one again now it's set-up for the 1/2" axle of the HS40. The hole of the torque plate isn't what I meant as being chewed up...it's the dropout slots themselves...mainly on the inside from the shoulders biting into it...but kiwiev also fixed that up with a bit of weld I can grind down flat.

I see what you mean about the 2 plates...good idea! I reckon if the current solution doesn't work (although I think it will) then that idea might be the go. Thanks for sharing!

The trail was pretty awesome...can't wait to try more...and yeah if your coming down Jay let us know, there's plenty of good trails around my area in southern Canberra also...and I'll still ride with ya. 8)

Cheers

 

[Hyena]

I 'think' I wore him down...at last a semi respectful reply.

I'm just stirring, a virtual poking with a stick if you like

if your coming down Jay let us know, there's plenty of good trails around my area in southern Canberra also...and I'll still ride with ya.

Cool. #Illridewithyou ES style :lol:

 

[kiwiev]

The trails are shared for mtb and walkers, we have over 160km of mtb trails within 40 km from home

Sounds awesome! I'm glad someone is getting some use out of the terrain there, from what I've heard the snow season this year was a bit of a non event. It's a bit of a hike for me but one day (hopefully sooner rather than later) I'm planning an ebike road trip (by car/van) from Sydney to Melb and want to do all the cool rides like this along the way Just gotta work on a 12v charger now so it recharges off the car between stops - with minor mods I'm hoping the adaptto charging coil plugged into the trailer plug will achieve this.

Jay you are are always welcome at our house we live on a farm so a Hyena and a Duck wont be a problem. :lol:
Ask Blake we have plenty of room. It would be good to have a weekend of endless Ebike my wife would love that

As far as riding you have to be in front I dont want a Hyena chewing my balls off.

Cheers Kiwi

 

[1abv]

Hey fellas for all you hot rodeos out there who have modded your bombers battery/engine/controller etc… Do you have to be more careful about heat? allex this is goin out to you specifically but if anyone else cares to join in the convo.. Of course if you go to crazy extremes ins gonna be less reliable I get that but something like what you have done allex how is that for off road aggressive etc..
Thanks..

 

[DunkenKBliths]

DANGER DANGER !!!

Had the scare of my life today, coming home in a bit of rain...
Came up a fill negotiating between two cyclist, when the throttle jammed full on...
Luckily as I streaked across an open field, (while being watched by the two cyclists) - I turned the bike off via the key !!!

Holly crap...one hell of a moment !!!

I gingerly turned the key back on but the throttle did nothing...so 8km hardcore bike ride ahead !!!
Luckily the power came on twice for a few hundred meters...which did help ...but again jammed on !

Am I right in thinking this is more than likely the throttle (water inside) and the bike ignores the throttle if the bike is started with full throttle on ?

Anyone else had this ? SCARY STUFF !!!

 

[PRW]

DANGER DANGER !!!

Had the scare of my life today, coming home in a bit of rain...
Came up a fill negotiating between two cyclist, when the throttle jammed full on...
Luckily as I streaked across an open field, (while being watched by the two cyclists) - I turned the bike off via the key !!!

Holly crap...one hell of a moment !!!

I gingerly turned the key back on but the throttle did nothing...so 8km hardcore bike ride ahead !!!
Luckily the power came on twice for a few hundred meters...which did help ...but again jammed on !

Am I right in thinking this is more than likely the throttle (water inside) and the bike ignores the throttle if the bike is started with full throttle on ?

Anyone else had this ? SCARY STUFF !!!

gees - not fun, is it when the bike decides that you should have auto full throttle - the sequence sounds exactly like when I was caught on my (ex) Bomber in rain. Hopefully you can sort it out, I ended up replacing the controller, then the battery, then selling the bike!
Perhaps someone will advise on how to dry it out without permanent damage.

 

[voicecoils]

Scary stuff Dunk.

Most ebikes are using a hall effect throttle. The sensor inside is very small with 3 tiny legs right next to each other which if bridged by moisture can put you in a full throttle or no throttle situation.

 

[PRW]

Dunk,

another thing - until you are 100% sure it is resolved - ride with your thumb hovering over the regen button and front brake ready to go - you have nano-seconds before you get launched into the path of a car if it plays games...

 

[Allex]

I always have my thumb on the regen button, if something happen with the throttle I just press that button and nothing will ever happen
Ducky, you really need to do pinch drop outs, your axle will always move as long as you have a gap, even if the gap is 0,1mm, so you need to pinch those things to eliminate this problem. And the axle needs to be completely flat, so you need to machine it, do not play with any hand tools if you want it to work good. Stealth should do those pinchers when they started to deliver bikes with regen. Luckily my Bomber dropouts was so tight that I had to hammer the rear wheel in to place, so I never had this problem.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Ducky, you really need to do pinch drop outs, your axle will always move as long as you have a gap, even if the gap is 0,1mm, so you need to pinch those things to eliminate this problem. And the axle needs to be completely flat, so you need to machine it, do not play with any hand tools if you want it to work good. Stealth should do those pinchers when they started to deliver bikes with regen. Luckily my Bomber dropouts was so tight that I had to hammer the rear wheel in to place, so I never had this problem.

Glad you agree with me Allex.
I agree, the pinching dropouts would be ideal, but like your Bomber, now with the additional metal added to the axle flats, I will have to hammer my axle in also.
Hopefully between that and the modified torque blocks, I won't have any more issues, even with that gap.
I need to take another look at the torque block fit also...I'm not 100% confident that the torque block was properly seated in that photo above...I just chucked it in there to take the shot...the gap could actually be much less.

Oh and in relation to earlier comments made about increasing the power levels of the hub motor indefinitely with cooling...I never claimed that was possible.
My cooling setup is purely to enable a higher average power input over the course of a ride through rough/hilly terrain without the risk of overheating. My presumption that it might be possible to pump multiple KW through a '250w' rated motor still stands though...I agree the possibilities are not infinite, and there comes a point of diminishing returns, but that doesn't mean it would not be possible to do increase power levels 8 times over stock with adequate cooling. LFP's test's actually proved it was possible for a time before everything melted down from overheating...exactly what dumping a bunch of LN2 would prevent. Not that I would push anything to 8 times it's stock power level's for every day riding...just saying it's possible.

Cheers

 

[Samd]

Useful understanding there. We'll stop ribbing you with thought experiments about heat dissipation.

It's important to understand the rules of motor saturation as it relates to hubs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_%28magnetic%29
And also the geometry of hubs as it relates to torque.
This is off topic to stealth, there are other threads for saturation and motor design.

 

[Rix]

Useful understanding there. We'll stop ribbing you with thought experiments about heat dissipation.

It's important to understand the rules of motor saturation as it relates to hubs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_%28magnetic%29
And also the geometry of hubs as it relates to torque.
This is off topic to stealth, there are other threads for saturation and motor design.

This is right on topic amigo, spill it, give us the damn veggies.

Here is my latest vid. [youtube]2E11ko2x5FU[/youtube]

 

[Samd]

Oh ok.
The issue with forcefeeding a small hub well beyond the design rate isn't getting the extra heat out of the motor. Its the ability for the copper coils to make extra magnetic flux to make more torque.

In fact when the coils can't make the extra power into magnetic field, it's forced to make it into radically more heat. A cooling system can carry it away to stop the motor burning out, but you don't get a chance for that extra kinetic energy out of the back end of the bike.

I had the same discussion with a guy who was running a gearmotor at 3.5kw and I was running mine at about 1.7kw. He couldn't understand why we were accelerating to 100meters in almost exactly the same time. He started looking to add fans and liquid cooling before I managed to get him to understand saturation.

Whats also a key point here is that the leaf motor, clyte or Mxus isn't 80% efficient, 90% efficient, or some other number. It's efficient at a certain point on it's design curve. Push it right outside that curve and you start seeing say 60% or less. Because the motor is saturated and the waste just becomes heat without resulting motion. Another way of restating the above.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Thanks for explaining Sam.
It's good to understand why and where these limits exist.

I wonder where the rate of diminishing returns really takes over? I.e. It clearly works to push our 2-3KW rated hub motors to 5-6KW if we can manage to cool them. So that's about 2-3 times stock rated power levels.
I wonder at what point it would require exponentially more power in to get any more power out (prior to saturation)?
We've seen Allex and others successfully push 12Kw+ peaks through the Bombers X5403...about 4X the stock ratings of the motor.
In fact Doctor Bass has recently pushed 16Kw through his '3000W' MXUS...so 5.5X the stock rating, and he plans even more I think.

Anyway, off topic a bit, but good for everyone with a Stealth to know they can really push the stock motors beyond stock limits if they cool them adequately.

Cheers