E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

[1abv]

 

[Rix]

I really like the pics of your light green bomber out and about. Thanks for posting them ABV1. Always look forward to them.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

So to confirm, do the LiPo setups provide the best discharge peak Amps per weight and the 18650/21700 packs provide the best energy per weight? If yes, then that's good to know and I'll stick with LiPo.

Yes, this is still the case right now, but 18650's and 21700's are closing the gap. The 14P pack I built for my Alpha was able to to 140A peak whereas the LiPo setup it replaced could do 160A so not too much difference under certain conditions.

What about hub motor advancements - have they improved at all over a H4040 in terms of torque/power to weight options? I would only consider a high torque winding. I don't need to do over 60km/h. Same 74V. I have a H3065 wheel ready to go. It's also in a 19" MC rim and sealed with a 80ml oil in it, and I think is a little bit lighter. It does 80 km/h tops, but it's way slower than the H4040 for my use with far less torque. It's quite weak until over 40km/h and it gets way hotter than the H4040 too. If it was a H3040 it'd be better for me.

There is no such thing as a 'high torque' or 'high speed' hub motor. They can just be purchased in different windings which result in differences in speeds. The reason one with more windings will feel more torquey is because your controller is under less load and the phase amps do more work. You can get just as much torque out of a lower wind motor if you just crank up the phase amps, assuming your controller can do it.

If your after a lighter weight hub motor take a look at the 35mm Leaf motor. This is what I ran on my Fighter and was a good balance of power to weight. With the Ferro fluid, heat sinks and fan cooling I added to mine I was able to push 7.5KW reliably. With your oil cooling method, you would be able to push one to around 5-6KW IMO. They only :lol: weigh 7.2KG...so compared to other hubs of a similar power like the HS4060 and 4040 are a good 1-2KG lighter. They are also 90% efficient so generate less heat compared to the older Crystalyte motors that were only 80-85% efficient.

Cheers

 

[synics]

So to confirm, do the LiPo setups provide the best discharge peak Amps per weight and the 18650/21700 packs provide the best energy per weight? If yes, then that's good to know and I'll stick with LiPo.

Yes, this is still the case right now, but 18650's and 21700's are closing the gap. The 14P pack I built for my Alpha was able to to 140A peak whereas the LiPo setup it replaced could do 160A so not too much difference under certain conditions.

What about hub motor advancements - have they improved at all over a H4040 in terms of torque/power to weight options? I would only consider a high torque winding. I don't need to do over 60km/h. Same 74V. I have a H3065 wheel ready to go. It's also in a 19" MC rim and sealed with a 80ml oil in it, and I think is a little bit lighter. It does 80 km/h tops, but it's way slower than the H4040 for my use with far less torque. It's quite weak until over 40km/h and it gets way hotter than the H4040 too. If it was a H3040 it'd be better for me.

There is no such thing as a 'high torque' or 'high speed' hub motor. They can just be purchased in different windings which result in differences in speeds. The reason one with more windings will feel more torquey is because your controller is under less load and the phase amps do more work. You can get just as much torque out of a lower wind motor if you just crank up the phase amps, assuming your controller can do it.

If your after a lighter weight hub motor take a look at the 35mm Leaf motor. This is what I ran on my Fighter and was a good balance of power to weight. With the Ferro fluid, heat sinks and fan cooling I added to mine I was able to push 7.5KW reliably. With your oil cooling method, you would be able to push one to around 5-6KW IMO. They only :lol: weigh 7.2KG...so compared to other hubs of a similar power like the HS4060 and 4040 are a good 1-2KG lighter. They are also 90% efficient so generate less heat compared to the older Crystalyte motors that were only 80-85% efficient.

Cheers

Cowardly Luck, does it make sense to add ferrofluid and heat sinks the to the QS273V3 motor? I'm new to electric bike world, but I've fried motors on every high power electric scooter I've owned (5600watt 50mph top speed) and that scares me...

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Cowardly Luck, does it make sense to add ferrofluid and heat sinks the to the QS273V3 motor? I'm new to electric bike world, but I've fried motors on every high power electric scooter I've owned (5600watt 50mph top speed) and that scares me...

Yes, it makes sense on almost every hub motor. I've added it to 5 different Ebike hub motors and one small scooter motor, all with great success.

I considered using it as a thermal bridge to my controller using magnets placed in strategic locations, but some thermal paste and/or padding is sufficient in that case.

Heck, I would even drink the stuff if it weren't toxic just to see what happens. :lol:

Cheers

 

[Rix]

So to confirm, do the LiPo setups provide the best discharge peak Amps per weight and the 18650/21700 packs provide the best energy per weight? If yes, then that's good to know and I'll stick with LiPo.

Yes, this is still the case right now, but 18650's and 21700's are closing the gap. The 14P pack I built for my Alpha was able to to 140A peak whereas the LiPo setup it replaced could do 160A so not too much difference under certain conditions.

What about hub motor advancements - have they improved at all over a H4040 in terms of torque/power to weight options? I would only consider a high torque winding. I don't need to do over 60km/h. Same 74V. I have a H3065 wheel ready to go. It's also in a 19" MC rim and sealed with a 80ml oil in it, and I think is a little bit lighter. It does 80 km/h tops, but it's way slower than the H4040 for my use with far less torque. It's quite weak until over 40km/h and it gets way hotter than the H4040 too. If it was a H3040 it'd be better for me.

There is no such thing as a 'high torque' or 'high speed' hub motor. They can just be purchased in different windings which result in differences in speeds. The reason one with more windings will feel more torquey is because your controller is under less load and the phase amps do more work. You can get just as much torque out of a lower wind motor if you just crank up the phase amps, assuming your controller can do it.

If your after a lighter weight hub motor take a look at the 35mm Leaf motor. This is what I ran on my Fighter and was a good balance of power to weight. With the Ferro fluid, heat sinks and fan cooling I added to mine I was able to push 7.5KW reliably. With your oil cooling method, you would be able to push one to around 5-6KW IMO. They only :lol: weigh 7.2KG...so compared to other hubs of a similar power like the HS4060 and 4040 are a good 1-2KG lighter. They are also 90% efficient so generate less heat compared to the older Crystalyte motors that were only 80-85% efficient.

Cheers

Cowardly Luck, does it make sense to add ferrofluid and heat sinks the to the QS273V3 motor? I'm new to electric bike world, but I've fried motors on every high power electric scooter I've owned (5600watt 50mph top speed) and that scares me...

Not to disagree with CD, as he knows a lot about cooling hubmotors, but the QS273 is a huge motor, I think they run over 40 pounds. Unless you are running north of 8kw with hills, I wouldn't worry about ferro fluid in that monster. I would maybe vent the motor, and install a thermasistor.

 

[biknut]

Comparing my 24 ah battery to my 35 ah, I like the 35 a lot more, but it's not just because of the larger capacity. Having a lot more range is greatness, but there's more to it than just that. They both feel exactly the same hot off the charger, but the 35 feels more pepe when it gets deeper into the charge. I can feel the 24 getting progressively weaker after about 1/2 the charge is gone, but the 35 still has almost the same spunk as before. Even when it's down 2/3 it feels pretty good. I think having more parallels is mo betta for acceleration when it's deeper into the charge.

 

[synics]

So to confirm, do the LiPo setups provide the best discharge peak Amps per weight and the 18650/21700 packs provide the best energy per weight? If yes, then that's good to know and I'll stick with LiPo.

Yes, this is still the case right now, but 18650's and 21700's are closing the gap. The 14P pack I built for my Alpha was able to to 140A peak whereas the LiPo setup it replaced could do 160A so not too much difference under certain conditions.

What about hub motor advancements - have they improved at all over a H4040 in terms of torque/power to weight options? I would only consider a high torque winding. I don't need to do over 60km/h. Same 74V. I have a H3065 wheel ready to go. It's also in a 19" MC rim and sealed with a 80ml oil in it, and I think is a little bit lighter. It does 80 km/h tops, but it's way slower than the H4040 for my use with far less torque. It's quite weak until over 40km/h and it gets way hotter than the H4040 too. If it was a H3040 it'd be better for me.

There is no such thing as a 'high torque' or 'high speed' hub motor. They can just be purchased in different windings which result in differences in speeds. The reason one with more windings will feel more torquey is because your controller is under less load and the phase amps do more work. You can get just as much torque out of a lower wind motor if you just crank up the phase amps, assuming your controller can do it.

If your after a lighter weight hub motor take a look at the 35mm Leaf motor. This is what I ran on my Fighter and was a good balance of power to weight. With the Ferro fluid, heat sinks and fan cooling I added to mine I was able to push 7.5KW reliably. With your oil cooling method, you would be able to push one to around 5-6KW IMO. They only :lol: weigh 7.2KG...so compared to other hubs of a similar power like the HS4060 and 4040 are a good 1-2KG lighter. They are also 90% efficient so generate less heat compared to the older Crystalyte motors that were only 80-85% efficient.

Cheers

Cowardly Luck, does it make sense to add ferrofluid and heat sinks the to the QS273V3 motor? I'm new to electric bike world, but I've fried motors on every high power electric scooter I've owned (5600watt 50mph top speed) and that scares me...

Not to disagree with CD, as he knows a lot about cooling hubmotors, but the QS273 is a huge motor, I think they run over 40 pounds. Unless you are running north of 8kw with hills, I wouldn't worry about ferro fluid in that monster. I would maybe vent the motor, and install a thermasistor.

I'll be doing lots of off road trail riding, and yeah there would be hills....so how would I go about venting the motor, and what is a thermasistor?

 

[1abv]

I really like the pics of your light green bomber out and about. Thanks for posting them ABV1. Always look forward to them.

Thanks man!! much appreciated! Here is a few more from some recent rides!

 

[1abv]

Yes, this is still the case right now, but 18650's and 21700's are closing the gap. The 14P pack I built for my Alpha was able to to 140A peak whereas the LiPo setup it replaced could do 160A so not too much difference under certain conditions.


There is no such thing as a 'high torque' or 'high speed' hub motor. They can just be purchased in different windings which result in differences in speeds. The reason one with more windings will feel more torquey is because your controller is under less load and the phase amps do more work. You can get just as much torque out of a lower wind motor if you just crank up the phase amps, assuming your controller can do it.

If your after a lighter weight hub motor take a look at the 35mm Leaf motor. This is what I ran on my Fighter and was a good balance of power to weight. With the Ferro fluid, heat sinks and fan cooling I added to mine I was able to push 7.5KW reliably. With your oil cooling method, you would be able to push one to around 5-6KW IMO. They only :lol: weigh 7.2KG...so compared to other hubs of a similar power like the HS4060 and 4040 are a good 1-2KG lighter. They are also 90% efficient so generate less heat compared to the older Crystalyte motors that were only 80-85% efficient.

Cheers

Cowardly Luck, does it make sense to add ferrofluid and heat sinks the to the QS273V3 motor? I'm new to electric bike world, but I've fried motors on every high power electric scooter I've owned (5600watt 50mph top speed) and that scares me...

Not to disagree with CD, as he knows a lot about cooling hubmotors, but the QS273 is a huge motor, I think they run over 40 pounds. Unless you are running north of 8kw with hills, I wouldn't worry about ferro fluid in that monster. I would maybe vent the motor, and install a thermasistor.

I'll be doing lots of off road trail riding, and yeah there would be hills....so how would I go about venting the motor, and what is a thermasistor?

Basically its a temp sensor that you can tell your cycle analyst ( or what ever your using) to cut power back if the motor reaches a certain temp. I installed one in mine. I set it so that the hotter it gets the less power it can output.
I will be the first to tell you that I know nothing about the QS273 I have not even seen one.. The following information is just about my stock motor only.

I have the stock motor and ride 95% off road and beat the hell out of it. Without Ferro Fluid and Hubsinks it would over heat in 10 minutes if that the way I ride. From what I've found the Ferro Fluid is great for keeping the temps lower and the Hubsinks help to shed the heat faster, So they really work well in concert with each other...

 

[Emmett]

but 18650's and 21700's are closing the gap. The 14P pack I built for my Alpha was able to 140A peak whereas the LiPo setup it replaced could do 160A so not too much difference under certain conditions.

There is no such thing as a 'high torque' or 'high speed' hub motor. They can just be purchased in different windings which result in differences in speeds. The reason one with more windings will feel more torquey is because your controller is under less load and the phase amps do more work. You can get just as much torque out of a lower wind motor if you just crank up the phase amps, assuming your controller can do it.

If your after a lighter weight hub motor take a look at the 35mm Leaf motor. This is what I ran on my Fighter and was a good balance of power to weight. With the Ferro fluid, heat sinks and fan cooling I added to mine I was able to push 7.5KW reliably. With your oil cooling method, you would be able to push one to around 5-6KW IMO. They only :lol: weigh 7.2KG...so compared to other hubs of a similar power like the HS4060 and 4040 are a good 1-2KG lighter. They are also 90% efficient so generate less heat compared to the older Crystalyte motors that were only 80-85% efficient.

Thanks again CD.

Sounds like 18650/21700 battery kits are not for me. A small benefit in energy for weight is not as important as peak power per weight, and energy per $. I also like the way I can simply replace a failing battery pack in the LiPo kit. Not that I've had to yet.

I remember you recommending the Leaf motor a while back. I'll re-look into it. Is there a Leaf motor with 40+ mm wide stator and lightweight alum stator core?

As you know, anything heavier than a H40xx is not an option. I don't want any extra mass moving on the swingarm than is absolutely necessary - besides the weight of copper, magnets and rubber. I've often dreamed about a custom titanium axle, but obviously expensive so I chose to wait for new motor options. I've already cut off that little bit of unnecessary metal for the chain derailer mount and cut down the right side axle adjuster. I'm not sure if I can go without my rim-lock for stopping tyre rotation with 15PSI in the tyre. I should try it I suppose with a very clean and grippy tyre bead and rim. I probably should get so Ti axle nuts one day.

At the speeds I ride, with my Bomber controller, the H4040 has way more torque and runs much cooler than my H4065. So perhaps your definition of high torque differs to mine. The motor with more windings obviously lets my controller run a lot cooler too. Around 80% cooler. So I've never agreed with the "any motor can do anything" theory. In practice, there is a correct motor winding for any combination of ride speed, battery setup and controller. Higher volts and lower amps results in much more torque and less heat loss - for my setup and usage.

 

[synics]

Cowardly Luck, does it make sense to add ferrofluid and heat sinks the to the QS273V3 motor? I'm new to electric bike world, but I've fried motors on every high power electric scooter I've owned (5600watt 50mph top speed) and that scares me...

Not to disagree with CD, as he knows a lot about cooling hubmotors, but the QS273 is a huge motor, I think they run over 40 pounds. Unless you are running north of 8kw with hills, I wouldn't worry about ferro fluid in that monster. I would maybe vent the motor, and install a thermasistor.

I'll be doing lots of off road trail riding, and yeah there would be hills....so how would I go about venting the motor, and what is a thermasistor?

Basically its a temp sensor that you can tell your cycle analyst ( or what ever your using) to cut power back if the motor reaches a certain temp. I installed one in mine. I set it so that the hotter it gets the less power it can output.
I will be the first to tell you that I know nothing about the QS273 I have not even seen one.. The following information is just about my stock motor only.

I have the stock motor and ride 95% off road and beat the hell out of it. Without Ferro Fluid and Hubsinks it would over heat in 10 minutes if that the way I ride. From what I've found the Ferro Fluid is great for keeping the temps lower and the Hubsinks help to shed the heat faster, So they really work well in concert with each other...

So I'll be using the Sabvoton 72200, and will def running it north of 8kw. I'm tough off road too...That sensor sounds like a great idea. Where does it get installed, and how would it interface with the Sabvoton?

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I remember you recommending the Leaf motor a while back. I'll re-look into it. Is there a Leaf motor with 40+ mm wide stator and lightweight alum stator core?

No, the Leaf motor's max out at 35mm wide. This results in less torque compared to a HS40xx so you have to compensate by increasing the amps a bit if you need the torque.

At the speeds I ride, with my Bomber controller, the H4040 has way more torque and runs much cooler than my H4065. So perhaps your definition of high torque differs to mine. The motor with more windings obviously lets my controller run a lot cooler too. Around 80% cooler. So I've never agreed with the "any motor can do anything" theory. In practice, there is a correct motor winding for any combination of ride speed, battery setup and controller. Higher volts and lower amps results in much more torque and less heat loss - for my setup and usage.

Note the caveat I mentioned above "You can get just as much torque out of a lower wind motor if you just crank up the phase amps, assuming your controller can do it.".
So it sounds like in your case you don't have the option of adjusting the phase amps of your controller. In that case, yes a higher wind motor is the best option for you to get more torque. I would not go higher than a 5T though (assuming you can even find a 6T or higher) as the decrease in speed would net diminishing returns on torque when the controller cannot be adjusted. You might even find the controller doesn't like it past a certain point as they are not really designed to run such high KV motors...e.g. try hooking up an RC plane or quad copter motor to your controller and see what happens.

If you really want a super torquey light weight hub, and you don't care about regen, take a look at some of the geared hub motors like the MAC motor.
https://em3ev.com/shop/upgrade-mac-kit-with-4750v-battery-1500w-max/
If you go far enough back in this thread you will find the time when Kepler put a MAC motor on his Fighter and push over 2.5KW through it from memory.
With some oil cooling and metal gears you might be able to push 4-5KW through one, but you would be on the edge of what they can handle. That being said the torque would be insane from it at those power levels and the weight would be half or less what you currently have now.

Cheers

 

[Emmett]

So it sounds like in your case you don't have the option of adjusting the phase amps of your controller. In that case, yes a higher wind motor is the best option for you to get more torque. I would not go higher than a 5T though (assuming you can even find a 6T or higher) as the decrease in speed would net diminishing returns on torque when the controller cannot be adjusted. You might even find the controller doesn't like it past a certain point as they are not really designed to run such high KV motors...e.g. try hooking up an RC plane or quad copter motor to your controller and see what happens.

If you really want a super torquey light weight hub, and you don't care about regen, take a look at some of the geared hub motors like the MAC motor.
https://em3ev.com/shop/upgrade-mac-kit-with-4750v-battery-1500w-max/
If you go far enough back in this thread you will find the time when Kepler put a MAC motor on his Fighter and push over 2.5KW through it from memory.
With some oil cooling and metal gears you might be able to push 4-5KW through one, but you would be on the edge of what they can handle. That being said the torque would be insane from it at those power levels and the weight would be half or less what you currently have now.

Cheers

My controller and wires can pump enough amps through the 4065. Problem is the controller and motor get way way hotter with the H4065 on than when using the H4040. Also the H4040 produces a torque boost lower in the RPM range - which I guess is closely related to controller programmed logic and not a copper resistance thing.

I'm enjoying 6500W peak and it produces above 5000W for a really broad RPM range, and that speed range is where I do most of my riding. Weight loss would be nice. Converting to 2500W is probably not for me. But hotted up could be interesting. I'll check out the geared MAC motor options, thanks! Just one question ... are they noisy?

 

[Cowardlyduck]

My controller and wires can pump enough amps through the 4065. Problem is the controller and motor get way way hotter with the H4065 on than when using the H4040. Also the H4040 produces a torque boost lower in the RPM range - which I guess is closely related to controller programmed logic and not a copper resistance thing.

I'm enjoying 6500W peak and it produces above 5000W for a really broad RPM range, and that speed range is where I do most of my riding. Weight loss would be nice. Converting to 2500W is probably not for me. But hotted up could be interesting. I'll check out the geared MAC motor options, thanks! Just one question ... are they noisy?

Nope, if your controller was sized and configured correctly you wouldn't have any controller heating issues and barley any heating issues with the 4065. Yes the motor is more susceptible to heating compared to a 4040, but only at lower speeds, so it depends on voltage and riding style.
I say this because I did it.
I ran my HS4060 at 7.5KW on 52V using a well tuned and unlocked tiny 6Fet Adaptto MiniE and cooled the motor using Ferro Fluid, heat-sinks and Fan cooling. It was able to push it up to 75Kph using overspeed settings on the controller and had face ripping torque from a standstill. The only time the controller overheated was when ambient temps were over 35C and I dumped full power from a slow speed up big hills. The motor overheated more frequently, but cooled quickly with the above methods.
All that being said, considering your riding style and voltage you probably do have the right motor for you. I'm just trying to make sure people understand the whole 'high torque'/'high speed' motor thing is a myth and there are many more factors that need to be considered when it comes to motor selection.

As for the MAC motor's, yes they are noisy compared to a DD hub. I think if you filled one up with Oil it would probably help a lot, but no idea how much.

Cheers

 

[Emmett]

My controller and wires can pump enough amps through the 4065. Problem is the controller and motor get way way hotter with the H4065 on than when using the H4040. Also the H4040 produces a torque boost lower in the RPM range - which I guess is closely related to controller programmed logic and not a copper resistance thing.

I'm enjoying 6500W peak and it produces above 5000W for a really broad RPM range, and that speed range is where I do most of my riding. Weight loss would be nice. Converting to 2500W is probably not for me. But hotted up could be interesting. I'll check out the geared MAC motor options, thanks! Just one question ... are they noisy?

Nope, if your controller was sized and configured correctly you wouldn't have any controller heating issues and barley any heating issues with the 4065. Yes the motor is more susceptible to heating compared to a 4040, but only at lower speeds, so it depends on voltage and riding style.

As for the MAC motor's, yes they are noisy compared to a DD hub. I think if you filled one up with Oil it would probably help a lot, but no idea how much.

Thanks, I'll look into it more. Makes sense though. With my Bomber controller, it's not happy at 4000 to 6400W for long periods with only a 66 to 74V power source and driving a H4065. So as you said, the high wind count DD motors (like the H4040) seem best for low-speed high load offroad riding. I do heaps of full power stuff at very low speeds.

 

[1abv]

Cali Sun....

 

[Allex]

Where do you guys source your 24" tires?
halo ception is gone
DMR moto digger is gone.

 

[Emmett]

Has anyone had the problem with a DC-1 display on a Stealth bike, where the display either:
1. powers up but displays nothing (all white) or
2. the display flickers while trying to power up, then after about 5 or 10 minutes, it works properly?

Thought I'd ask here before asking Stealth support. Maybe someone has seen the same problem and knows what's failed.

I guess it's either the display or perhaps a connection to it. I've not gone in to have a look yet. The problem started after long term storage for about 18 months. It's getting worse. IE. takes longer before it comes good.

The bike works fine without it. The main thing I miss is a number for volts and minimum volts.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Where do you guys source your 24" tires?
halo ception is gone
DMR moto digger is gone.

I was getting mine from Municycle. I think they have stores all around the world:
https://www.municycle.com.au/catalogue/UP-TYR-24-DURO3_item.html
Only catch is they only stock the Wildlife leopard which wears super fast.

Cheers

 

[cruzxia]

Emmet
There is a small rechargeable backup battery inside the DC1. It may need replacing. Remove the jumper on the back of the DC1 to disconnect the battery and see if that helps. You may need to replace the battery.

 

[biknut]

I think I got rid of my infernal rear brake noise. When I changed to my new Shimano's it fixed my front brake noise, but the back, the more I tried to adjust it the louder it got. I finely resorted to these bevel/concave brake washers. These washers allow one additional direction of adjustment that some of our bikes need.

 

[biknut]

It sure is fun having a big battery. 35 ah floats my boat.

 

[biknut]

 

[Rix]

MURIKA!!!!Fuq yah!!!!!