E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

I may be able to help clear the confusion with the Fighter motors as I have one of each for my Fighter, both from Stealth.

My second HS3548 (first was replaced under warranty after it burnt out in sand) was accidentally wrecked when I was doing work on ventilating it. This was in early 2013. I contacted Stealth about a replacement and they informed me they had moved to the HS40 series motors. I specifically requested a HS4065, which they were more than happy to do. From memory it was $750 shipped and laced into one of the Stealth rims.
Earlier this year, I managed to partially toast my HS4065 pushing 6+KW through it. I've since resurrected it and am running it again now, but that's a whole other story.
Anyway, at that point I contacted Stealth again to get another motor. This time they informed me they no longer offered the HS4065, and that Stealth got a custom wind of the HS40 from Crystalyte that's closer to the HS4080. This time the cost was $900...less than a year later.

Anyway, from my above experience I'm pretty sure all Fighters now come with a HS4080. Stealth do replace the axle, and install a thermister, although I don't think it's really a custom wind, just a HS4080 with mods.
I could be wrong on the custom wind thing though. If the HS4065 is 4 turns, I'm assuming the 4080 is 3...there's no way to do something in between is there?

Cheers
 
Ok, my bike is a 2012 model but listed as having 2013 upgrades. Not sure what that means. So, it would not have the HS4065 but more along the lines of the HS35XX. Interesting!

SamM
 
Allex said:
Note that changing to a more powerful controller ads a lot of excessive heat to the motor. So make sure to have a temp sensor and consider venting.

That's interesting to learn about different controller's abilities to pump more or less amps through a motor. Something for me to consider after my warranty expires. I wrongly assumed the limit was in the motor. But it seems the motor's limit is dictated by heat, right?

I have a brand new 2014 Fighter. On the CA display I see the watts peak at 3700, but it only gets that high at mid range speeds. Maybe 20 to 35km (at a guess). Within this mid range speed, the motor has great torque. On another page in the display I can see peak watts is usually something like 4200 to 4700. Why is that peak above 3700 and when does that happen?

I ride on trails and BMX tracks, usually with bursts of full power then none, so I much prefer the torque over the top speed. The bike does about 65km/h on the flat sealed roads with no wind, which is faster than I need. On tight trails doing 10 to 40 most of the time, the stock motor puts a permanent grin on my face.

Riding laps on a BMX track in 16C air temp, I found the motor gets to its maximum temp in under 30 mins, so I have to learn to pace out the fun factor.

AUD 900 for a new complete wheel sounds like a fair price. I'm used to paying $900 for a wheel with no motor in it.

My other question is, if I want a low speed, dry weather, torque monster, that is something pumping out say 5KW from 5 to to 30km/h, then will I need only a different controller, or is a different hub motor the go? I don't want a hub any heavier than what I've got. I understand some motor ventilation is required.
 
Ok, evoloution looks some like this

HS3548
HT4065
HS4065
XX40XX Custom
HS4080

On the fighter with a stock 26 inch rim and battery, i known the top speed with a HS3548 is 50km. Prehaps everyone can report there experiences to slove this mystery. If your hitting 70km, you probably have HS4080

It sounds like a Custom 40XX would be hitting 65km

Other motor configuration are welcome if you on a fighter.
 
dh-paule said:
Allex said:
I heard that White industries are very noisy, true?

noisy ?
is the american v8 aound a noise ?

the same for white industries and chris king at bicycles ;)

Missed this earlier Paule, true that. How the Bomber doing with the Dlogic reworked 5405? Any vids?
 
everything is fine, climbing like goat, even in steep terrain :))
but I am thinking about selling the bomber for a new project during upcoming winter ;)

Not that I am not happy with all the upgrades he got during the time,
its a nearly perfect e-bike - so I think the guy that will get it will be as happy as me

Video is a real problem... cause you have to stop for filming the next spot.. once on the bomber I dont want to stop before <70V in the battery ;) the bike always tells me: go go go
 
dh-paule said:
everything is fine, climbing like goat, even in steep terrain :))
but I am thinking about selling the bomber for a new project during upcoming winter ;)

Not that I am not happy with all the upgrades he got during the time,
its a nearly perfect e-bike - so I think the guy that will get it will be as happy as me

Video is a real problem... cause you have to stop for filming the next spot.. once on the bomber I dont want to stop before <70V in the battery ;) the bike always tells me: go go go

The truth Paule, I film one out every 6 rides or so because I want to ride. I have a metric ton of 1st person video, but not much 3rd person for that very reason.
 
So I've finally confirmed (for myself at least) that my cooling fan mods on my Stealth HS4065 are effective.
If you want the boring details check out this thread.
P1070199.jpg


The interesting part is that it works...and works well IMO.
Fan_test.jpg

As you can see. it doesn't help a whole lot with peak temps, but it does help a lot with cooling off when the power is no longer applied, or greatly reduced. In real riding circumstances you don't normally ride 100% WOT, or 100% up steep hills, so it really does help keep the overall temperature down. :)
So far water, dust, mud, heat, snow, and even 18V+ haven't stopped these little 12V fans from running. I periodically spray some WD40 through them to keep them fresh.
So for those wanting to squeeze more from a hubby than straight venting achieves, without the mess of oil, or the massive task that is water cooling I would highly recommend going this route. :)

Cheers
 
What's the highest temperature typically seen when measuring the outside of the hub? I checked mine over the course of the summer and the highest temperature I've seen was about 130 F.
 
Theodore Voltaire said:
Cowardlyduck said:
So
Fan_test.jpg


Cheers

Interestingly 130 F is about what you show on this graph CD. Were you measuring the outside of the hub?

Nicely done CD, It would appear that the diminishing returns for max cooling with the fans is north of 12 volts. looking at your chart @ 12 volts get your you down to 50-45c in about 1 minute, @ 18 volts, 47 seconds, so by an increase of 50% in voltage, you are getting about a 23-24% quicker in crease in cooling with a slightly less heat spike. I guess that means keeping your fan at 12 volts will ensure maximum life span of those little motors for the return you get in cooling. At 15 volts, your volts are increased by 25% and your cooling time decrease by only 9.5% with the same heat spike. That's not worth it. When the weather gets hot there, I would like to see some data about the cooling ratio specifically between 12 volts and 18 volts. We are still in the mid 90s here during the day, 37C+, but not nearly as hot as it was in July. This was our July high. Of course the official temp was 110F at the airport, but airport sits behind a mountain. Anyway with summer temps like this, you can see why I am interested in your modification.
 

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120-130 degrees F doesn't seem that hot to me. An electric motor like a totally enclosed 1/3 hp air conditioning condenser fan motor typically runs about 180-212 degrees F, and last for years. Those are the type of motors I work with on a daily basis.

I wonder why our seemingly much lower operating temperature is such a concern?
 
130F on the magnet ring of the outer motorcase case is typically around 190F inside on the windings.
This is usually the temp I am seeing half way on my work commute which is 5miles through the forest.
175F on the outer case is when I keep the motor windings at 260F for about 20 minutes.

So your low temp is because you only use the bike on the flats.
 
Theodore Voltaire said:
120-130 degrees F doesn't seem that hot to me. An electric motor like a totally enclosed 1/3 hp air conditioning condenser fan motor typically runs about 180-212 degrees F, and last for years. Those are the type of motors I work with on a daily basis.

I wonder why our seemingly much lower operating temperature is such a concern?

I am referring to outside ambient temp, those photos were taken from my work vehicle month before last. When I ride my bike with the outside temp at 120F, the hub heats up, and stays hot much quicker and longer than when the outside temp is say 80F. I have watched this phenomena time and time again. With my vented motor, when I hit thermo rollback, if the temps are around 80, just riding down the road at 20mph will cool things off within a minute or two and full power is restored, but when its over 100, even after 5 minutes, my heat gauge will barely reflect any cooling. Some folk have installed 110C thermistors which is like 240F or so in their motors and run temps up there with no damage or discoloration occurring. The stator on the right was my 5404, left is 5403. I got it so hot one time that when spit on the hub shell, it boiled. I know at my elevation of 4000 feet that water boils around 208F, so it was at least that hot. Just guessing, but that probably equated to over 300F on the stator itself, maybe more as I don't know for sure. This motor is still in service and runs great, my dad currently has it on the Bomber running a 19x1.4 MC with a SR241 2.75-19 tire on it. Even the sensor wires are browned a little as well as the high temp epoxy coating. Its a tough motor.
 

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Rix said:
Theodore Voltaire said:
120-130 degrees F doesn't seem that hot to me. An electric motor like a totally enclosed 1/3 hp air conditioning condenser fan motor typically runs about 180-212 degrees F, and last for years. Those are the type of motors I work with on a daily basis.

I wonder why our seemingly much lower operating temperature is such a concern?

I am referring to outside ambient temp, those photos were taken from my work vehicle month before last. When I ride my bike with the outside temp at 120F, the hub heats up, and stays hot much quicker and longer than when the outside temp is say 80F. I have watched this phenomena time and time again. With my vented motor, when I hit thermo rollback, if the temps are around 80, just riding down the road at 20mph will cool things off within a minute or two and full power is restored, but when its over 100, even after 5 minutes, my heat gauge will barely reflect any cooling. Some folk have installed 110C thermistors which is like 240F or so in their motors and run temps up there with no damage or discoloration occurring. The stator on the right was my 5404, left is 5403. I got it so hot one time that when spit on the hub shell, it boiled. I know at my elevation of 4000 feet that water boils around 208F, so it was at least that hot. Just guessing, but that probably equated to over 300F on the stator itself, maybe more as I don't know for sure. This motor is still in service and runs great, my dad currently has it on the Bomber running a 19x1.4 MC with a SR241 2.75-19 tire on it. Even the sensor wires are browned a little as well as the high temp epoxy coating. Its a tough motor.

Does it smell funny when the motor gets hot ?
 
The windings starts to smell when they hit 90C or so. I can really smell them outside just sitting on the bike without moving when they reach 130C.
Rick, I had my windings up to 160C but it was just a few spikes for test. They still look like your photo on the left.
So your 5404 was probably hotter than 160 :D Think I read somewhere that color change at about 180C and above.
 
How hot can these motors go before very bad things start to happen. Have any of you had a temp sensor installed when a motor burnt out. Would be nice to know where the max limit goes.
 
The motor hub already spins. So if mostly riding at medium+ speeds in dry conditions, then why use any extra fan? I am imagining an air intake scoop plus exit venturi. So during forward wheel rotation there is lots of air flow through the hub. Mods only to the hub cover on one side.
 
stritzky said:
Rix said:
Theodore Voltaire said:
120-130 degrees F doesn't seem that hot to me. An electric motor like a totally enclosed 1/3 hp air conditioning condenser fan motor typically runs about 180-212 degrees F, and last for years. Those are the type of motors I work with on a daily basis.

I wonder why our seemingly much lower operating temperature is such a concern?

I am referring to outside ambient temp, those photos were taken from my work vehicle month before last. When I ride my bike with the outside temp at 120F, the hub heats up, and stays hot much quicker and longer than when the outside temp is say 80F. I have watched this phenomena time and time again. With my vented motor, when I hit thermo rollback, if the temps are around 80, just riding down the road at 20mph will cool things off within a minute or two and full power is restored, but when its over 100, even after 5 minutes, my heat gauge will barely reflect any cooling. Some folk have installed 110C thermistors which is like 240F or so in their motors and run temps up there with no damage or discoloration occurring. The stator on the right was my 5404, left is 5403. I got it so hot one time that when spit on the hub shell, it boiled. I know at my elevation of 4000 feet that water boils around 208F, so it was at least that hot. Just guessing, but that probably equated to over 300F on the stator itself, maybe more as I don't know for sure. This motor is still in service and runs great, my dad currently has it on the Bomber running a 19x1.4 MC with a SR241 2.75-19 tire on it. Even the sensor wires are browned a little as well as the high temp epoxy coating. Its a tough motor.

Does it smell funny when the motor gets hot ?

Yah, you will know it when they get really hot.

Alex, its possible I saw 180C, I just don't know though because there was no temp monitoring on it. I was riding it on a very hot day last year summer 2013 in sand for miles and miles. Even though the stator wind is discolored, still works great!
 
Thanks for the kind comments guy's. I put a lot of work into doing and documenting this fan mod, so it's nice to see others appreciate it. :)

Theodore Voltaire said:
What's the highest temperature typically seen when measuring the outside of the hub? I checked mine over the course of the summer and the highest temperature I've seen was about 130 F.
Highest I've seen outside the hub was 90C in the past as that's what the temp stickers I use on the outside max out at. I don't measure from the outside any more though. The temps in my testing were from a sensor mounted underneath the windings and a display I've mounted up where my CA used to sit.

Rix said:
Nicely done CD, It would appear that the diminishing returns for max cooling with the fans is north of 12 volts. looking at your chart @ 12 volts get your you down to 50-45c in about 1 minute, @ 18 volts, 47 seconds, so by an increase of 50% in voltage, you are getting about a 23-24% quicker in crease in cooling with a slightly less heat spike. I guess that means keeping your fan at 12 volts will ensure maximum life span of those little motors for the return you get in cooling. At 15 volts, your volts are increased by 25% and your cooling time decrease by only 9.5% with the same heat spike. That's not worth it. When the weather gets hot there, I would like to see some data about the cooling ratio specifically between 12 volts and 18 volts. We are still in the mid 90s here during the day, 37C+, but not nearly as hot as it was in July. This was our July high. Of course the official temp was 110F at the airport, but airport sits behind a mountain. Anyway with summer temps like this, you can see why I am interested in your modification.
Thanks Rix. Yes, that was my conclusions also on the fan speeds. I rode to/from work today with the fans only running at 12V as a result. I think when the weather warms up a bit I might turn them up to 14-16V as I calculate there is a couple of volts sag in the wiring anyway so it shouldn't hurt the fans.
Yes, I think where other cooling methods like oil, water are too much work/hassle, and pure venting is not enough, running fans like this are the next logical step.

For the guy's commenting on the temps...Yes, the temps used for testing were low. This was intentional as I had to test with something I could repeat and analyze. Normal riding temps for me vary between 35-60C, and riding up long or steep hills easily brings the windings up to 100C+. The max I have seen with the fans running was about 115C. That's a guess as my temp gauge maxes out at 110C and then just shows HHH. :lol:

When the temps are that high, the difference running fans makes is even greater. I would say the cooling effect is multiplied by a factor of 2 for every 20C above ambient compared to no fans running at all. Just a guess.

I might do another test at some stage where I do an actual trail ride with/without the fans, then plot the temps to show the effectiveness of real world use.

Cheers
 
Emmett said:
The motor hub already spins. So if mostly riding at medium+ speeds in dry conditions, then why use any extra fan? I am imagining an air intake scoop plus exit venturi. So during forward wheel rotation there is lots of air flow through the hub. Mods only to the hub cover on one side.

I was thinking about scoops also. Seems like since holes in the motor plates make so much difference, scoops would be the better than fans, and a lot simpler to implement. The downside might be a lot of dirt getting inside the motor though.

I can certainly understand why our motors get hot. Every time I reset my CA it has a 65-67 amp max recorded. That's a huge amount of current. It's hard for me to even imagine how the winding can handle that.
 
Theodore Voltaire said:
Emmett said:
The motor hub already spins. So if mostly riding at medium+ speeds in dry conditions, then why use any extra fan? I am imagining an air intake scoop plus exit venturi. So during forward wheel rotation there is lots of air flow through the hub. Mods only to the hub cover on one side.

I was thinking about scoops also. Seems like since holes in the motor plates make so much difference, scoops would be the better than fans, and a lot simpler to implement. The downside might be a lot of dirt getting inside the motor though.

I can certainly understand why our motors get hot. Every time I reset my CA it has a 65-67 amp max recorded. That's a huge amount of current. It's hard for me to even imagine how the winding can handle that.

I'm sure I'll end up having a rear wheel for damp conditions (stock) and another for dry weather.

In the dry weather wheel, if the hub covers are a ductile grade of casted alum, then scoops could be fabricated in about 30 mins. Just drill 4 holes about 15mm in diam. Then stick a piece of steel 10mm diam rod in each hole and carefully bend the alum to create a directional vent. 2 holes as intake and 2 for exhaust. In the internal side doesn't have enough clearance, then file some alum away. Know what I mean? Air filtration might also be possible.
 
What do you guys think of the Shimano Saints Disc brakes for DH? My gator's are toast and when the rear axel sheared off, the top of the disc tore up the top of the gator brake (hence why I couldn't brake and my front brakes locked up resulting in my crash into luckily a pile of leaves in paper garbage bags!).

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ca/en/shimano-saint-m820-disc-brake/rp-prod82461

What size brake system would I need?
 
Those shimano are pretty good.
New Magura MT5 are interesting too.
http://enduro-mtb.com/en/team-tested-magura-mt5-four-piston-brake-review/

And here are some power charts
http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/how-we-test-hydraulic-disc-brakes-24345/
 
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