E-Trike Project

[AussieJester]

OooooK then...so my trike wont be going today LoL
I had pretty much resolved myself to the fact it wasn't going to be a case of just plugging in the throttle wires
and hooking up the power to the controller and motor :: sigh ::

Thanks heaps for your time Methods, i'm still a little lost...

"Attach your main battery ground to J1-3 with a hard connection to your battery negative"

Run a piece of wire from battery negative to the J1-3? (I assume thin wire ~same size as the controller uses is fine for here)

Then:--

"Connect the positive of your battery to one of the main contactor lines"

Connect big MOFO thick wire to the metal '+' tab on the back of controller?

"Connect the positive of your battery through a small switch or key switch to the positive contactor coil"<-J1-4?

The next bit totally confuses me sorry mate :-(

"Attach the other side of the main contactor to J1-1 PWR
Attach the other side of the main contactor coil to J1-4 COIL DRIVER"

I am unsure of what you mean... You say "if i dont have a contactor forget 1-4" I dont know if i have one or not i thought the contactor were the three metal tabs 'B+' 'M' 'B-' on the end of the controller :-S

If i forget the step and go the other way well...there is no way i could hook my 'switch' up to the controller (its 200amp switch its HUGE i put on main leads from battery as a rule) that side it takes wires as thick as a pencil and the wires on the J plugs are thin as a pubic hair :-S all too confusing for me...

Onto J2 anywayz...

This i understand and have no probs with...

Sorry Methods, i understand the controller needs to be 'turned on' or have power applied and needs to be 'switched on' through J2 plugs/pins things im just a little lost as to how the wires are runninng with this 'contactor' you mention that doesn't appear to be the same 'contactors' im thinking are the ones on the controller ie. metal tabs 'B+' 'M' 'B-'?

If you could possible scribble a quick diagram
rather than schematic layout i will have your babies LoL Sorry for the denseness buddy im sure its very simple (to most) and when i see it in figure form it will click as im obviously missing something ...

As Princess Leia says "Help me Methods your my only hope..." well its something along those lines im sure

Appreciate your time mate

Kim

EDIT:-

I see now the contactor you speak of on the schematic sorry...so...i dont have one LoL... I drew up a lil diagram with 'my take' on the setup as best i can figure it out, is this even close to correct?

The J1 wires connected are the red and black forgot to lable in diagram...

Thanks again Mehods shall await your input before burning anything hehehe

 

[methods]

No, I mislead you with my ramblings.
I should have looked at the directions, I only looked at the pin out.
Let me make a drawing. I will post it up in a few minutes.



-methods

 

[methods]

Your drawing was almost perfect except for the part where I mislead you :lol:

I think you said that you have a 200A switch, is this correct?
If so, this is how I would hook things up.
Thick wires are thick, perhaps 4 gauge
Thin wires don't matter.

What do you think?
Does someone want to chime in?

The small wire going into J1-1 could also go through a secondary key switch if you wanted some sort of security feature.

-methods

 

[AussieJester]

Thanks Methods your a champ

My diagram was pretty well correct with exception i added a wire to the
Black (GND) wire of the J plug thingo...And yup Methods, i have this isolator
switch thing thats 200amp rated i use on the positive line off the battery...
the old controller one before last had umpteen plugs on it one of which was a keyswitch
plug you simply plugged the keyswitch into...I just use the isolator switch i have now
but seeing you point out i can slap one on the wire to the J1 connector i will
no doubt do so in the final build up, for now i'll K.I.S.S
be less chance of me f*****g something up LoL

I shall get to hooking it up first light tomorrow thanks Methods...i should be tearing around in
know time Would do it now but its like 30 something outside now prolly closer to 40 in my
garage so inside with the aircon for now...beeroclock later in the arvo might bring on some
new enthusiasm...thanks again for all your time Methods...perhaps one day i can helpz you...doubt
full but you never know hehehe...
Cheers

Kim

 

[methods]

Sorry about the first explanation. I drank too much coffee again.
Your diagram would have been correct had you not read my explanation.
It is wise to always make me draw a picture :wink:

-methods

 

[methods]

perhaps one day i can helpz you...

You can help me with some welding tips.
I have a 20A Lincon Mig welder
I have welded a lot of mild steel.
I never hooked up the gas, I just use the rosin core wire


I want to get the kit to convert it over to aluminum. I think it is a different sleeve and different gas.
Assuming I am using the correct wire/gas for aluminum, what do I do differently to weld aluminum?

Do all the heat ranges/thicknesses still apply?

I have an A-B-C-D range as well as 1-10 feed speed.
I have an intuitive idea as to what speed/heat I need for steel
Does that apply to Aluminum?

Do I have to clean it differently?

-methods

 

[AussieJester]

Ooooh your getting all pro now with your gas mig and aluminum Methods...baaaastard hehehe...
You start pumpin out custom aluminum frames me and other Doc will be getting piiiiised HAHAHA
Well he will when his ribs heal cursing now would probably be painful either that or hes that dosed up on pain killers he
wouldnt care if the sky fell in...poor injured other Doc

OK...few things, yes it is recommended to change the liner from metal to plastic, teflon are also available these days.
Reason behind this is the aluminium doesnt slide as easy as the steel it tends to 'stick'
Watch your tension on your wire rollers too, the alli wire crushes alot easier as its heap softer
in doing so (if you have the knurled type rollers) will mark up the wire and make it grab more on the liner
You can buy rollers purposely made for ali wire, they have no knurling and are not a 'v' shape channel for
the wire to run in but a 'u' shape so as not to press marks into the wire, IMHO not essential what you have
with light roller pressure will suffice....as for gas as pure argons the go mate we have to rent bottles in OZ
which sort of puts me off the whole idea dunno what the go is in your neck of the woods as far as thats concerned...
OH, your tips for the hand piece, doesn't hurt to go a size larger than you would if you were welding
mild steel ie. if wire is 0.8 use a 0.9 tip for your ali I have a CIG drill set for tips i 'oversize' my tips for steel as
well particularly with gasless and no mig dip or nozzle spray you get alot less wire caught up in the tip as the
ali expands alot more than the steel wirez.

Also are you aware you need to reverse the polarity when welding with gas on the mig? Your gasless setup has
the gun as negative and your earth clamp is actually positve. Needz to be ass about bud VERY important...wont work
the way it is setup for gasless wire DiD you know that if you reverse the polarity on an ARC welder so
your handset is negative and you have a positive earth you can weld aluminum with correct rods

As for setup, you need to turn the wire speed up for ali, work on double what you would use for steel wire
You can use a much thicker wire too mate, i use 0.9mm in my mig if i were to do the same
job in ali i would use a 1.2mm wire...

Haven't got the spare $$$ to spring for a lil Inverter TIG setup have you mate? talking ooooober niiiice welds then bud...

Best of luck with it anywayz mate, i have seen some pro work done in ali using lil gas migs, not upto the level of good TIG but close.
I havent done alot of ali welding and havent done any in good 5 years, you will get the hang of it quick if you can weld steel well...

Sorry about the first explanation. I drank too much coffee again.
Your diagram would have been correct had you not read my explanation.
It is wise to always make me draw a picture :wink:

-methods

Your direction were fine Methods my
ability to understand them was the problem me thinks hehehe
The Conductor you mentioned through me till i printed out
the schematics and was looking at it when i went to
my workbench...it clicked "oooh thats what he's on about" hehehe...

Thanks for your time mate shall be mobile again thanks to you

Shall report back how things go either wayz

 

[AussieJester]

Methods out of curiosity what would it involve doing to make the controller capable of 100 plus volts?
Would it be more than caps requiring changing

 

[methods]

Methods out of curiosity what would it involve doing to make the controller capable of 100 plus volts?
Would it be more than caps requiring changing

Sorry dude, yours is only good up to 56V.
Go over that voltage and the firmware will shut you down.
If it is a real problem you could probably swap it out with Kelly.
Just tell them you made a boo-boo and you actually wanted a 72V or whatever.

If your batteries are already 48V then dont sweat it.
Stick with 48V
There is a lot more to worry about with 100V. . .
With a 100V pack you have to worry about pre-charging the internal caps to avoid arching when you turn it on so that would mean a more complicated switch.
You also have to worry about being electrocuted at 100V DC. I get bit all the time.
Problem is that it makes your arms JERK and sometimes you slap yourself in the face.
100V also means that any given pack is twice as expensive, your range of components goes way down since most stuff is designed for 48V or 72V.
Your pack will be a bitch to charge, you either have to charge at 100V with a custom charger or swap your pack back and forth from series to parallel
You will have to run a DC-DC converter to power the Kelly or a separate 12V battery
If you balance, you will have to balance a hell of a lot more cells. . . for Lipo it would be 24 cells
You will need to get a lower kv motor.
If you have any gauges on your bike you would have to swap them out for new ones

100V is gangsta
It is kind of like putting turbo on a car. . .
It is more fun and more power but. . .
A hell of a lot more trouble and responsibility.

-methods

 

[methods]

Ooooh your getting all pro now with your gas mig and aluminum Methods...

Also are you aware you need to reverse the polarity when welding with gas on the mig? Y

Hmmm.... I will have to ask more questions as you are obviously more in tune with welding than I am =)
I am easily the worst welder on the west coast of north America. Total hack.
I just want to be able to weld aluminum so that I can build this bad-ass trailer I have been thinking about.
I want to build it out of dumped bicycles like your first trike.

I vaguely remember reading the directions 5 or so years back when I got the welder and switching the polarity around for no gas.
I stole the gas valves for my fish tank
I suppose I should check it.

Maybe that is why my welding sucks so bad :|
(highly unlikely. Much more likely would be my lack of patience)

I think one time about 3 years ago I actually cleaned the metal before I tried to weld it (you know, scraped off the paint) and it worked real well

-methods

 

[AussieJester]

Well Methods, i have wired it all up as per destruction's and unfortunately it don't work... I get 51.4 volts constant from the wires that are (to be) connected to the motor, turning the throttle drops it to 51.1... soon as i turn the switch and give power it is full power at the + and M wire....I will have to hook up an LED i gather? :: sigh :: any help from anyone would be appreciated ...

cheers

Kim

EDIT: I hooked up an LED and get two flashes then 4 flashes this according to the codes on Kellys destructions says its a throttle error at power on...

Methods, i did also notice on my controller the throttle wires arent the same colors as the one in the destructions, i dont have the 'Orange' wire on my controller I have a yellow instead, i assumed this was the 'same' as the orange Red from throttle connects to it The other wires are same as per your diagram Im also NOT using the throttle i bought from Kelly BUT one from my old TNC Scooter controller again...i assumed they would be the same do you think this may be the cause? I shall hook up the Kelly throttle when i am less pissed off and see what happens, i guess at the very least i have the error code thing to give me a place to start looking ;-S

 

[HAL9000v2.0]

Try to change the throtle type in software first. It worked for me. I am using Magura throtle with kelly.

 

[AussieJester]

Try to change the throtle type in software first. It worked for me. I am using Magura throtle with kelly.

I havent got a cable to plug into it im afraid...what exactly needs changing ? I havent seen the 'software' of these controllers before, do i need the controller powered up when i plugs him in? Was your controller on flat out the entire time before you changed the settings? Can't see why it shouldnt work with the throttle i bought from kelly, who knows...thanks for offering advice anywayz mate appreciate it.

I have tried the Kelly throttle, on one occasion when i turned it on the LED stayed lit as its meant to but the volts at the motor wires were still 51 volts all the time, twisting the throttles reduced the volts as it did previously, if i hook the motor up as is it will be flat out soon as i turn the key ....stuffed if i know, I have triple checked all the wiring its exactly as instructed, i'll buy a cable off ebay and wait another week for that to arrive i guess, Anyone know if these controllers will work with Vista? Or am i going to have to mess about with a dual boot of XP? I

I'm just about over the whole thing TBH, this electric business has cost me a small fortune and has been broken longer than its been working :-S It's 2.33am and i've had it for now messing with the sh*t of a thing, so disappointed/pissed off in it all right now....I'll grab some sleep and weigh up the option tomorrow...At the moment all i can see is near 300 bucks wasted on a controller that doesn't work, I can get some relief in the fact i didnt waste more money on a Lifepo4 it would of tripped the BMS everytime i started off up a hill damn i would of been reeeeal pissed then...

Anyone has anymore words of wisdom don't hold back and Yes all the connection are soldered well nothing loose etc etc....

Kim

 

[HAL9000v2.0]

Maybe you have nonprogramable type. I havent recived cable also but work with standard serial rs232 9 pin cable. What is the type of your controller?

 

[TPA]

There are at least 2 types of people on ES. Those who know the electronics, and those who know the fab work...then there are those who know both.

Don't worry about it, move slow and do the necessary research. Sooner or later you'll get it.

And when you do get it, you will be one of those who knows both. :wink:

 

[methods]

Ok. . .

CALM


There is no problem. This is common with a Kelly controller.
I promise we can get you going for 0 more dollars.
Worst case we will have to adjust the firmware. I can mail you one of my USB to Serial converters if you need one on the cheap.


Allow me to help. There are about 5 things that can be going wrong here.

First: The Kelly will has a "High Peddle" lockout. This means that the throttle must be at 0V (or <1V) at power up. If it is not then you will get this code. NOTHING will work in this condition. The throttle must be connected and at its lowest point when you turn on the controller.

Dont do anything else until you turn the controller on and get a steady LED.

Second: When you say +50V, where are you measuring that? I assume that you are measuring between (+) and (M) right? If you are measuring between (-) and (M) you should see 50V. Also, remember that you are reading into active circuitry that may need a small amount of current flowing to behave properly. If you start the controller and the LED is sold then hook up the motor and try that. It is possible that you need a load present for the circuit to behave properly. . . Remember that it is meant for big KW.

Throttle Troubleshoot: I want you to measure the throttle voltage that is going into the Variable TPS line. Put the red probe on the TPS input and the black probe on Ground. Measure the voltage with the throttle in these positions:

OFF:
ON:

Tell me what you read. A true Potentiometer throttle will go from 0V to 5V. A hall sensor throttle could go from around 1V to 4V. Kelly defaults the throttle range to around 20% to 80% so either should work


SOFTWARE: If you want to be Gangsta, you gata use the software. It works fine on Vista, I use vista. All you need is a serial port or a USB to Serial converter. It is simple. Go to the website, download the software, look at the examples. Take your time, read the tips and hints. If you make changes, change ONLY ONE THING at a time to avoid confusion.

You can call me and I can walk you through it if you want. I have no idea what time it is on that little island you live on so dont call me in the middle of the night

-methods

 

[methods]

More thoughts:

Remember that this is a very powerful controller. You will want to get the software either way to leverage all the features.
- LVC
- HVC
- Current Limit
- Fine tune the throttle range
- Fine tune the throttle response (fast, medium, slow)
- Set Speed mode, Torque mode, or mix mode
- Forward or reverse the motor
- etc

The software is poorly documented but I have played with the KBL to no end. Please ask if you have any questions.
Here is the software:
http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/Kelly KDS User Configuration Program Setup v2.5.zip

Please be patient. The Kelly will reward you for your hard work. Although other controllers are plug and play, they are children's toys compared to a Kelly that is set up correctly. You can fine tune your application and you will really enjoy it. Until you have the ability to fine tune you dont know what you are missing :wink:

-methods

 

[methods]

Lets get another set of eyes on my diagram.
I have only hooked up a KBL brushless system
Has anyone here hooked up a brushed?
Please confirm my wiring diagram before the Aussie blows a gasket

-methods

 

[methods]

Methods, i did also notice on my controller the throttle wires arent the same colors as the one in the destructions, i dont have the 'Orange' wire on my controller I have a yellow instead, i assumed this was the 'same' as the orange Red from throttle connects to it

Please confirm the following:

DMM set to Voltage.
Black DMM on Black wire
Red DMM on yellow wire

Do you read +5V? If so, this is fine.
The orange wire (or now the yellow one) needs to be +5V

-methods

 

[methods]

I read the instructions front to back
I tried to install the software to make a tutorial but like the KBL, it wont run without the controller hooked up.

These brushed controllers are fairly simple.
I am confident that we are just doing something silly.
I suspect an incorrect throttle voltage at power up and when that is corrected I suspect that attaching the motor and powering up will show success.

Now get you arse out of bed and get back to work on those electronics!

To make you feel better, I will show you the horror of my mechanical skills.
Here is the first thing I ever tried to weld up.


http://www.deviantmethods.com/Pictures/Projects/StarProject.html

I never intended to have a 20' star of David in my yard but thats what the neighbors thought. . .
When asked "do you like it?" they responded with a flat "NO!"

lol.....

-methods

 

[Reid Welch]

^ ^

The man has room for only one ball, and yet, the neighbors think him Jewish.

A hitler scratched between his legs and noted,

"Before I was rampaged; before I had a cage;
I know I'd two between me."

--------------

cheers,
Fwashburn

 

[AussieJester]

I just finished typing a half a page of responses and then went and had another looksee at your "structure" then closed the bloody page losing everything grrrr...so again in short form ...

Firstly thanks again for the time and effort Methods would be up shit creek without a paddle without your help

I measured the throttle, it is o.8 in off position and 4.20v in on position.

I shall ring around today local PC Shops see if i can find a cable local if not ill grab one off ebay they are under 10 bucks delivered I'm just wondering if i have the cables here to make one up possibly?

I have downloaded the software and its installed, as you pointed out though it wont run without controller connected :-( I'm half way to being Gansta ..hrmz...is it even possible to be Gangsta with only 48v? I have my trike parked in the center of my lounge room floor ATM does that help? LoL

Finally WTF is the structure mate?? Was it just 'art' made for the sake of it? I truly think the neighbors would appreciate it more if you popped the brightest lights you can find on each tip of the stars

Thanks again mate off to call some shops now see about this cable..

Kim

p.s and yes i was measuring the voltage at the + and M contactors

EDIT:

Good news i have found a cable local Methods...bad news im being slugged 39 freakin dollars for it AAAGH there 3 bucks on ebay and 6 delivery FFS...its going to cost me 20 bucks in cab fare to get there and back this better make me Gangsta..oh and fix the freakin controller too LoL...crank calls at 3am in the morning if it dont HAHAHA..J/K Taxi ordered shouldnt be far away will be back in an hour or so shall report back with progress later today OH haha the next problem will be getting the trike/controller close enough to the bloody computer to plugz it all in :: sigh :: good excuse to buy a laptop i guess ;-|

 

[AussieJester]

Back with usb to r232 cable and 5 meter usb extension, 70 bucks later...cable plugged in and all i get is this-->

Gotto be happy about that :-S

I have installed all the drivers for the cable/converter thing-a-ma-jig Tried unplugging everything from
controller except the power, tried several USB ports... nothing, same thing doesnt know its connected...

And now the LED gives the following-->

Get 3 flashes then one... pause.... then three flashes then two flashes...

1. The fault will disappear after restart (of course it doesnt)

2. Reset caused by over current or so. It is normal if occurring occasionally (switched it on and off 6 times...does it every time now)

Original error code isnt happening now....so aside from being 70 bucks lighter im in no different situation from 2.30am this morning...

Any more ideas anyone?

 

[methods]

I have bad news mate. . .

You are not going to like this. . .

I went over to Kelly's page to try to remember if I needed a special driver for the RS232 converter. . .

For a KBL like mine, you can use this: A standard RS232 converter
http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&cat_id=7&product_id=80


Now get ready for the bad news. . .
Bad, bad, bad news. . .

On this page:
http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=cat&cat_id=7

It shows a "SPECIAL" converter for KD and KDS controllers. . .
http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&cat_id=7&product_id=65


So. . . before you get a gun and go start shooting at the freeway lets sit back and relax.
You CAN absolutely get the controller working without software.

Now do this. Drink a little more alcohol (notice I said a LITTLE more. . .)

Wire up the throttle
Wire up the power

Turn it on.

What code do you see?

If the LED is solid red, disconnect power, hook up the motor, jack up the wheel or whatever so it does not blast off, hook up the power.

Operate the throttle ever so slowly (so as to keep the current down).

Does it throw a code?
What code?

That controller will work out of the box and if it does not then we need to figure out why.

In the mean while, lets think about getting that $20 part from Kelly

You can return the other one when you the next time you go to town.

Every project must have disappointments.
They just make the final product that much better!

-methods

 

[AussieJester]

I have bad news mate. . .
You are not going to like this. . .

Yup terrific, not only would i have half a dozen of those old cables laying about (same as VGA monitor cable)
to top it off i havent seen a pc in 5 years thats got a R232 port on the back of it :-S I did actually
seee the cable on the Kelly site but dismissed it due to not having USB, unfortunately i didnt notice the thing about
it being for a KD controller :-S

Wire up the throttle
Wire up the power

Turn it on.

What code do you see?

If the LED is solid red, disconnect power, hook up the motor, jack up the wheel or whatever so it does not blast off, hook up the power.

Operate the throttle ever so slowly (so as to keep the current down).

Does it throw a code?
What code?

I Get 3 flashes then one... pause.... then three flashes then two flashes...

1. The fault will disappear after restart (of course it doesnt)

2. Reset caused by over current or so. It is normal if occurring occasionally (switched it on and off 6 times...does it every time now)

Original error code isnt happening now....

Havent been able to get the LED to go solid red again Methods, happend once early hours of the morning
since then the new codes have appeared, previously was the 'Throttle error at power-on" error...this no longer
happens...well hasnt the last half dozen times i turned on the power :-S Seems to randomly change
its mind, i havent touched anything else inbetween these codes changing either, just turned on the
power/turned off the power.

Incidental...i received an email from Kelly (quick response time give them that as for their controllers
they can shove them right up their ass as far as im concerned) I quote from the email received-->

Kim,

Please make sure your motor mounted between B+ and M. The voltage isn't valid without motor mounted.

Any other clues?

Thanks and happy new year!
Steven

Yup...great news i thought , so i hooked up the motor, now i get no voltage at all on the B+ and M contator/wires AND you guessed it same error codes as listed above. OH...the motor doesnt turn either of course.

Every project must have disappointments.
They just make the final product that much better!

Yeah well, sorry mate but i cant see it, been endless disappointments for very little reward, this electric stuff is
all too expensive and hard for fark all joy in my book.

I sincerely appreciate all the time and effort you have given Methods, but its very hard to stay positive
when I have a controller that aint working, no idea why, will never be able to hook it
to a pc without building a machine (if i can find one old enough in the first place) specifically
for this controller...I'll go play around change the throttle over to the Kelly one (this is the one i was using when i got the RED solid LED last night) and report back if/when i get a solid light and different codes etc etc...failing that i dunno mate
I give up.

Kim

EDIT:

Wired in the Kelly throttle does exactly the same thing the throttle from TNC Scooters does...ie.
3 flashes the 2 pause 3 flashes the 1 If you can figure this out Methods i'll buy you all
the beer you can drink when you make it out to OZ LoL


EDIT2:

OK Methods work this out...after my previous post i have had dinner and caned the utter crap out of the kiddies in COD4 for several hours, i thought i would try one last time before retiring to bed, so i switch on the controller and low and behold CONSTANT RED LED SIGNAL!!!! Turn the throttle and BINGO the motor spins up WHAT THE F***K im to scared to turn it off now it might never work again...

So i turns it off anywayz turns it back on and its back to its same old flashing bullshit....3 flashes then 2 pause 3 flashes then 1 ... HEEEEEEEEEELP Methods....