E-Trike Project

[methods]

I certainly dont want to join this battery discussion but I cant help myself.
I would take Lipo in a heartbeat over any of the other options

6S 22.2V 5Ah 25C Zippy lipo with balance taps $100

2S 2P gets you :

44.4V nominal, 50.4V off the charger
10Ah
250A continuous
$400
Will hold voltage WAY WAY WAY better than Lead or NiMh under load
They make LiFePo4 look heavy
Thousands of miles easy. I have over 1000 miles and 200 cycles so far without issue
They come with 6S balance taps and 10G wire

can be charged with any standard 48V power supply, just set it to 50.4V
Can be balanced with a $20 RC lipo balancer

Yes Dangerous
Yes Explosive
Yes high maintenance
Yes light as a feather
Yes bad-ass
Yes very high quality
Yes needs a reliable LVC
No does not need a BMS

I just needed to say that.
I really dont want to debate battery technology :?
Really. . . I dont
Probably should have kept my mouth shut. . .

Look to the RC guys
They used to use lead
Then NiCd
Then NiMh
Then Lipo
Now starting to move toward A123

No way in hell would anyone use a NiCd or NiMh in an RC plane these days. It would be a joke.
Lipo has such greater power density that the difference is measured in orders of magnitude.

LiFePo4 is overpriced right now
Especially the PING packs and other 1C / 2C packs
If I had the cash I would go A123 in a second but I am a cheap bastard so Lipo it is for me.

-methods

 

[AussieJester]

Cheers for jumping in Methods

You did miss one key element of using Lipos that over shadows everything else...they are Gangsta 8)

A123s haven't come down alot in price since i was into the RC helis, they were making a show back then
in the larger choppers, still a little weighty for some of the smaller 450 size choppers if your into anything more
than sports flying...If i had the $$$ it would be a no brainer A123s it would be without question.

Lipos scare me a little, at the very least I can say I have a healthy respect for them

Dunno Methods...not sure im ready to be 'That' Gangsta 8) yet mate LoL...baby steps...
I'll be 'apprentice' Gangsta 8) for a while maybe? LoL

Just in case though Methods...have you got suggestion (link) for a supplier of a 2s2p 44 volt Lipo pack?

Cheers buddy


Apprentice Gangsta 8)

P.S Update on Trike Proceedings...

The ass end got pulled off the trike and was cut up :-| there was no other way around the chain alignment issue
I have 80% finished a complete new rear end which including cutting the trike conversion housing on the right
side removing 25mm of tubing and re-welding the flared end that holds the bearing back on.
This will allow the 6 speed freewheel to slide further to the right and thus bringing the chain
into alignment with 1st gear sprocket without the the derailleur having to do the guiding, which
is fine for pedal strength but no go for 1000watt electric motor when giving it a fist full :-S I
have taken pics, i shall up these when the job is complete so it makes more sense...Hope to have
it assembled and riding it by end of day...

OH OH OH...i must tellz you fellas this...my mate came around two days ago.... we decided
a trip to the local shop (all up hill ) on the trike was in order! He stood on the back of the trike and held my
shoulder...trike didnt miss a beat pulled me and him up the hills to the local shop i was rapt!!!
return journey same deal but he also had the added weight of a carton of beer balanced on his
shoulder hahaha would have made a great sight.... hes 85 kilos...so me worried about how
the wheelchair will go getting towed is no longer a concern nor is throwing a drunk tart
on the back and giving her a lift home from the local pub BWAHAHAA...

 

[recumpence]

Actually, aside from the added safety factor, A123s are heavy and have a lot of voltage drop under load (high internal resistance) compared to Lipos. But, the safety issue is there with Lipos, that's for sure.

With a good charger, saftey is really not an issue.

Glad to hear the trike can take the weight.

Matt

 

[methods]

Lipos scare me a little, at the very least I can say I have a healthy respect for them

To each his own. :wink:
I didnt really expect you to bite, just putting the option on the table since we are talking batteries
They really do add another level of responsibility that some dont want. . .

-methods

 

[methods]

... A123s are heavy and have a lot of voltage drop under load (high internal resistance)...

You mean the low 1C or 2C rating LiFe cells have those characteristics right?
The A123 cells have a very low internal resistance. That is what allows them to be charged at 4C and above. They also hold their voltage under load nearly flat.

I would agree that most low end LiFe cells are heavy and have poor performance compared to Lipo.

-methods

 

[recumpence]

Nope, I mean A123s.

In Helis, we found they are rugged, yes, but the voltage drops far too low under load. I also run super high speed RC cars. We gave up on A123s because of this.

High C (25 to 30C) Lipo cells can truely be run at that level with only a tiny bit of voltage drop. A123s drop horribly if you pull high amps from them.

Don't get me wrong, A123s are good cells. They cannot, however, hold a candle to a good modern Lipo cell.

Matt

 

[nomad85]

Matt-
How many cycles do your 25-30c lipos last?

 

[recumpence]

That does depend on how hard they are run and what cells we are talking about.

If the C rate is kept reasonable (maybe half of the factory rate), they will generally last years, or over 1000 cycles. If you pull them to their maximum C rating, I would say 300 cycles or so. That is generally my experience from my helis.

I have two extreme cases to share with you.......

#1 My top speed RC car. That car typically pulled 125 amps from a 2ah lipo pack. That pack was rated at 25C continuous, 50C burst. I was pulling 60C from in regularly. I got about 100 cycle from that pack under those conditions.

#2 My heli transmitter. I have been running an old 12S lipo pack in that for years (maybe 1000 cycles) pulling about 1C. That pack is still testing out like new.

Lipos are not perfect by any means. Also, A123s are very good cells. However, Lipo are teh best bang for the buck, weight, and size. They just need to be treated right.

Matt

 

[AussieJester]

I'm still a little confused about the charging method ...Methods is using, when i
charged my Lipos for my RC heli i had to do them individually, i used 4x11. volt
packs. Methods makes mentionhe uses a 'standard' 48volt charger simply set to ~50volt...
I new A123s could be charged like this hell some fellas would hook their A123 packs
directly up to a 12volt car battery (with car running) and have them charged in
REAL quick time. I didnt know Lipos could be hooked up as Methods is doing it and
charged...I'm aware this wont balance them but Lipos dont reeeally need balancing
EVERY charge (well i never did with mine and they were fine and i fairley caned the heli...)
So what charger is Mr Methods using that you can set the voltage on? I cant recall (soz lost
many a brain cell since i had Lipos LoL) exactly how the Hyperion settings worked now...I know
you use the Hyperion Matt...so whats the story there, can you hook four packs up and charge
them simultaneously @ for example 50volt or are you doing them singularly or as a par
at there pack rated 22 volt? If i can plug any old charger in as Methods indicates you can
it simplifies things a shit load, 48volt charger and a handfull of those cheap Esky charger/balancers
would do the trick, charge with the 48 volt charger to 50 volt <---want to know how this is done
Methods HOW do you set a standard48volt charger to 50volts? then balance the cells with the
Esky balancer every 3-4 charge. :-S Also...not entirely sure about having only 10ahs worth of
batteries, i was planning to get 20ah pack.So would require 8 of those 22 volt packs you
mentioned Methods...starts to get a bit more expensive then well over the grand mark after
dollar conversion and freight charges :: sigh ::

Me

 

[yoyoman]

Bosch 36V fatpack - lowest I've seen on eBay is $51.99 with free shipping. The last time I checked was $52.99, so maybe they're going down ...
51.99 / (2.2Ah * 36V) = $.656 / Wh .... much better than the $1.24 mentioned earlier

The chargers are still like $60, so that's not so good

 

[methods]

I have a 100.8V 24S2P 10Ah lipo pack that I charge as it sits.
I hook up a power supply that is set to 100.8V and let-er-rip
Simple as that.

My bike it totally plug and play.
When I pull up to my house I just attach a cord that goes inside to the 100.8V supply and let it charge.

Currently I am charging my 10Ah pack at around 11A so it takes about an hour to do a full 1KW charge.
Generally it only takes about 20min to replace what I have taken though because who burns off a KW every ride?

Original version
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6542

More info as I up the current to 10A, 16A, and beyond (generally I charge at 1KW though)
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5416&p=120810&hilit=methods#p120810

Charger = NO :x
Power Supply = YES
Gangster? Totally

-methods

 

[AussieJester]

I have called local seller of power supplies regarding that Meanwell ESC-240-54 i PMed you about Methods, unfortunately they ain't
answering..If i am able to set it in between 48~56v ie 50v for my setup which im doubtful of... i would have a charger and be happy to buy some Lipos ...if not... :: shrugs :: I have gone through their entire catalog and nothing else appears suitable. Perhaps i could take the charger to local electronics guy and have him set it at 50v for me?

My ChoperUS order cleared a Australian customer 9am yesterday im expecting delivery tomorrow, i have halted work on trike rear end till the consignment arrives as it has a set of 20x3in Slim Cat tires in it for the rear of the trike, seeing i wish to dump the rear ride height more i thought it best to wait and have the tires fitted before doing so... shall twiddle thumbs till then :: sigh ::

:: begins twiddling thumbs ::

Kim

(apprentice Gangsta 8) )

EDIT:

Showed Methods my new helmet yesterday i was going to keepz it for a surprise till my next YouTube Video
My friend picked it up for 100 000 rupeah on a recent trip to A Bali both him and his girlfriend got one they couldn't fit
them in their luggage so had to wear them all the way home on hehehe-->

Just bought these off ebay to complete the look

Methods have you seen this site http://gangstaname.com/




Kim

aka. Gun Doggy Mafiosi

apprentice Gangsta

 

[Bobocop]

Nice, can't wait for the video with you on the trike with that helmet and goggles

 

[safe]

Back on the battery debate...

These 10C rated NiCads are really cheap. They deliver all the performance you could ever need and they have the lifespan of 1000 cycles like the LiFePO4 option.

But they are heavy.

So it really all comes down to price and weight... if weight is a very important issue then you need to spend the $$$ to go for the lighter solution.

But do the math:

Rider weight - 185 lbs
Bike weight - 50 lbs (approx)
Total - 235 lbs

Option 1 - Battery Weight 35 lbs (NiCad)

Option 2 - Battery Weight 10 lbs (LiFePO4)

...now we figure the percentages:

Option 1 - 35 / 235 = 15%

Option 2 - 10 / 235 = 4%

Which means on flat land you won't even notice it.

(I live in the flat lands of the midwest... the tallest hill is 100 ft)

-----------------------------

A trike is also more able to carry weight because you aren't in need of balancing it. All the issues about handling are less with trikes verses bikes.

But I have to admit that for the "gangster cool factor" you don't get to claim superiority with the humble Nicads... they are the old school battery... very boring. (but I like boring because my focus is in other areas) The NiCads are unlikely to fail so you will never be one of those people posting:

"Oh my god, I just did something really stupid and my $1000 pack is now worthless."

How many times have we heard that sad story? :wink:

You can go from feeling "cool" to feeling like a "fool" with one small mistake.

-----------------------------

People ultimately have to decide based on their own personal criteria. For me it's all about being cheap. The idea of risking loss of such an expensive investment tends to steer me towards the "safe" choice. We are all different people.

 

[methods]

Oddly. . . I think I am going to agree with Safe
This will probably be the only time you will hear me say this, but the NiCd are the safe route
I dont think you want the worry of Lipo dude.
And charging with only a power supply is Gangster. . . I.E. Dangerous Gangster... You have got to be true to the game if you want to take the risk of charging 30lbs worth of lipo near your home. Many things can go wrong.

As an aside, there are a million power supplies on Ebay that will work as chargers:
http://cgi.ebay.com/48V-DC-7-3A-350...58288QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

350W supply
48V
7.3A

That would charge a 12S 44.4V Lipo in about an hour and 15 minutes for $70 and free shipping
Exactly the same as setting a Lipo charger to 12S 7.3Ah

I have never used these though, so no guarantee!
The range is 41V = 56V

Seriously, stick with "packaged packs" or safe packs for one more round. Wait till next time to go Super-Gangster. It will just be a headache and a risk. I really dont want to read a thread about how you smoked $800 worth of lipo

-methods

 

[methods]

I have called local seller of power supplies regarding that Meanwell ESC-240-54 i PMed you about Methods, unfortunately they ain't
answering..

P.S. I have been trying to hammer this point home. . . that is a CHARGER. I am talking about a POWER SUPPLY.
A "Charger" is simply a "Power Supply" that costs 5 times more.



-Patrick

P.S. My Gangsta Name is: "Secret G-Ride Bouncer"
That is what the website said.

 

[TPA]

I have been dubbed "No Pants - Poo Poo Pants"

How can you have poo poo pants if you have no pants :?

 

[AussieJester]

I have called local seller of power supplies regarding that Meanwell ESC-240-54 i PMed you about Methods, unfortunately they ain't
answering..

P.S. I have been trying to hammer this point home. . . that is a CHARGER. I am talking about a POWER SUPPLY.
A "Charger" is simply a "Power Supply" that costs 5 times more.



-Patrick

I saw 'power supply' and 'charger' above the unit assumed it was both...i was also looking in the 4amp range as the lipos i had my eye on are 10c 15c burst not the ones you use Methods Would also cost $AU400 not $US800 I have owned several Meanwell power supplies (brand u linked to on ebay..the OZ agents is 10 minutes from me) i used them to power peltiers in my custom PC Cooling setups few years back, i never saw anywhere on them to alter voltage they were set (aside from the 110v~240v switch for input) I know they 'say' its variable but there is no dial or visible screw ... not to worry, cheers for the help Methods

p.s ...i can't use 'package' batteries the BMS would trip before i got out my driveway...NiCads weight and sheer numbers put me off, ping pack i thought was bad enough they have 80 'pop tarts' NiCads i would need 240 of the suckers :-|

 

[recumpence]

If you know how to treat them, Lipos ROCK!!!

Matt

 

[AussieJester]

I wish i still had the footage of my Gaui 550 flaming up mid air Matt...was doing a few flip flops and loops
out front of my house showing a mate and he was videoing it, the 22.1v pack decided it didnt want to play anymore
autoed down missing power lines lobbing in a large tree my mate had to climb to retrieve the chopper,
melted some of the chassis and canopy aside from that it popped a couple of ball joints and dented the blade at the grips...
relatively cheap to replace everything...sold the chopper not long after that. Looking at a cheap RTF to have some fun with now just a small 450 size chopper though, other Matt (1000watt) has bought a lil chopper so ill have someone to fly with now

I have just got off the phone to Computonics, the agent here for the Meanwell power supplies, the fella
said my best option is the SP320-48 he assures me there is a trim pot to set voltage it maxes at 0~6.7amp and they have them in stock for 100 bucks

Kim

 

[methods]

I got a bad feeling about this.
No Lipo.





btw: You would need an advanced method for balancing if you charge in series like I do
Balancing each pack individually will not work as each 6S group will be inter-balanced but not balanced pack to pack
You either need to disassemble and reassemble in parallel for balancing but. . . Then you also need a 22.2V charger
Depends on your balancing method. With high quality packs you can balance individual packs for a while but eventually
they will get out of balance. NEVER go anywhere near LVC if you are not balancing every time. NEVER try any of this if you
are using cheap batteries as they go out of balance EVERY time.

-methods


P.S. FYI for anyone considering using a power supply for charging:


* Every power supply is different. Some dont like the voltage being drawn down past the set point.
* Must have an accurate DMM
* Must have an accurate inline current meter
* Must have capability to make multiple high power Series Parallel wiring harnesses
* Must have capability to make complex balancing harnesses
* Must have (hard to find) parts for above
* For best results packs should be charged in true Parallel
* Buy only 1 size of lipo packs, i.e. 5S or 6S. Dont mix and match
* Attach all lipo in parallel, both the power lines in parallel and ALL the balance lines in parallel
* Hooking all the packs in parallel will somewhat self balance the cells
* Hook one 6S balancer to all the packs, start balancing
* For starters set the power supply to charge all the packs to 4.1V instead of 4.2 for an error margin
* Hook an inline current meter like a WATTS UP to check voltage and watch current
* Attach the pack and watch the current close, get ready to pull the plug
* Current should go to the max rating
* Voltage will sag to the pack voltage
* Voltage will steadily rise
* When you get to within a volt or two of the set point (HVC) the current will drop very rapidly
* Once you get it worked out then you can charge to 4.2V/cell
* Check the leakage current of your supply. Mine is 300uA so once it gets to LVC it stops charging
* If your power supply is cheap it may have mA trickle which could be a problem if you leave the pack on
* Dont charge overnight. It should only take an hour or two so KEEP AN EYE ON IT

** GANGSTER LEVEL TWO **
* Once you have the hang of it, you can charge in series
* To charge in series you MUST have a way to balance.
* Balancing individual packs will NOT WORK

NOTE: for these methods you need BOTH a power supply for charging in parallel (or any 6S RC Charger) AND a charger for charging in series.
I would suggest that only "RC People" with Lipo experience try this. Those people should have a 6S balancing charger already.
Use that to charge the packs in parallel.

** I use the 24 Cell DIY balancing board that Fechter, Gary, and others designed for my packs and I only have the high voltage (100.8V) charger. I never go to parallel.

 

[AussieJester]

Yupz...as i said in PM bud the 463 dollar $AU freight charge put an end to that anywayz ...

Update

Battery decision business aside...i finished the modz on the trikez rear end, trike is again in rolling status

The shortened axle housing has done the trick as far as chain alignment is
concerned, chain alignment from sprocket to the 1st gear on the freewheel is scwheet
the derailleur isnt needed to keep it over in first gear, im hoping now under full load
ie.quick acceleration take offs the chain will stay on and not flex the derailleur and drop it
into second gear...

Some may have spotted the lower ride hieght yet increased clearance for the sprocketz

Trike is also ~50mm shorter...this has worked out excellent one of those thingz that
happened but wasn't planned--> I can sit on the trike and easily wheel it around pushing it
like you would a wheelchair i might get a small vid of that in future
i reckon i could make a couple of kilometers on it, would take a
awhile no doubt but now an option i didnt have before if/when i break down
...OH...larger 3in tirerz look the business i thinkz Might have to follow ol' safes
lead in respect to joining a couple of rimz together and lace em up, the larger tires would
flatten out more... shall keep a keen eye on how safe goes with his attempts at this,
i think it should work very well, make for a strong rim to i guess with possibly t
he added benefit? :: shrugs :: of running two tubes in the one tire :: wink ::

LiL...Before & After

Just the derailleur to bolt on (need to make a lil extension for the mount)
Chain on brakes hooked up..i i bought 10 extra long brake cables from
ChoppersUS so i'll never be caught without again hahaha along with these
i got another 20 foot of the braided brake tubing/housing thang

So...new ride height, increased sprocket clearance shortened wheelbase with excellent
chain alignment ... YUPz...i do believe itz has been a worthwhile 'modification' I :: wink ::
I suspect the cornering will be improved even more too.....

Off to continue working on terrible hang over :: sigh ::Back soonz...


Kim

Apprentice Gangsta 8)

 

[Reid Welch]

Man, that's looking splendid. You inspire me. I'm back to work on my own .00001% project, after seeing how far you've gone from zero to nearly 100%.

You deserve a hangover after all this.
Drink lots of water: prevents hangovers.

Hammers are handy too for throwing at garage cats.

The trike is like none other. Kudos, but where is the snorkle?

Jacques

 

[AussieJester]

Man, that's looking splendid.

Cheerz Reid...I'm very happy with the way it has
come out, the seating position is oober comfy for me, lower seat height makes transferring from wheelchair to the trike much easier to As for a snorkel i ain't following your lead on taking a dip in the poooolz my friend ..i'll sit back on the sidelines cheering you on

Something i forgotz to mention in above post ...with regards to the shortened wheelbase, the planned aluminum tray will be the size (dimension wise L X H ) of a carton of Beer Had a carton sitting on it last night, lookz the right size to have the tray fitz niceley with rest of bike...and a carton size tray could fit...aside from a carton of beer...few bags of shopping

Kim

apprentice Gangsta 8)

 

[AussieJester]

Continuing focus on the tray, i did a rough design
in paint shop to help better show the design i have in mind, using 3mm
aluminum possibly checker plate? ....with low slanted sides
on the tray and matching height headboard.

I bought a large steel Carabina off ebay few weekz ago (don't recall if i mentioned it earlier?)
anywayz, i shall weld a flat plate to the carabina and bolt it to the under side of the rear end of
the tray. This will be used as the 'tow hitch' ...the foot 'plate' of my wheelchair will be
fitted with a "---n----" <---looped shaped rope, then its a case of dropping it into the carabina
and awaaaaayz i wil go with wheelchair in tow


Kim

Apprentice Gangsta 8)