E-Trike Project

[Storx]

I am trying to make a decision between 2 ebike kits that seem to be popular on the bicycle world...
My main goal with going electric on my new trike is to allow me to keep up with roadies on the bike trails that want to ride together with the E-Assist feature... and to allow me easier pedaling when traveling down dirt style hiking paths for fun exploring....

These are the 2 options i have kinda narrowed it down to... im a little unsure which would be best for me...
Which one is best for my situation..?


Direct Drive Setup:
Golden Motors Edge Setup
48V 500W
7 speed cassette standard (optional 10 is available for extra)
11.7lbs
32km/h rated
Thumb Twist
Bluetooth display and programming via android app
Pedal Assist included
$429 +135 shipping to my address

Geared Drive Setup:
Mac ME3EV 2016 New Motor Setup
36V 500W
No cassette standard
11.5lbs
32km/hr rated
Thumb Twist
No Standard display (option for cycle analyst extra)
Pedal Assist optional w/purchase of cycle analyst
$427 +100 shipping to my address

I plan on building my own battery out of 18650 cells

 

[WoodlandHills]

Why not spend $100 more and put a BBS02 on it? You could keep your existing drivetrain as is and have a cleaner installation (integrated controller).

I am curious where you will put the battery no matter what sort of motor you select. It looks pretty tight....

 

[Warren]

Read this great comparison first.

http://www.triketech.com/Drivetrain/PowerAssist/PowerAssist.html

 

[jesusjesus]

nice bike 8)

 

[waynebergman]

I was running a mac 10t with 52 volts on my tadpole. The little mac is a perfect motor for this in my opinion. Its very quiet and pretty peppy for its size. I was glad I had version 3 ca and the 52 volt pack on board. The power was smooth and it coasted very well with this motor. Good luck with the project. I would forget about a mid drive myself on something like a trike. Way to much chain to be listening to and dealing with. I would go with 52 volts if you can and a big ring up front like a 52 tooth if you can. With this kind of a set up you only really need one big ring on the front in my option

 

[Storx]

Why not spend $100 more and put a BBS02 on it? You could keep your existing drivetrain as is and have a cleaner installation (integrated controller).

I am curious where you will put the battery no matter what sort of motor you select. It looks pretty tight....

I was told to shy away from mid drive units with a catrike when i asked the trike guys forum, the aluminum frame develops cracks from the torque from the motor bending the boom constantly...

 

[Storx]

I was running a mac 10t with 52 volts on my tadpole. The little mac is a perfect motor for this in my opinion. Its very quiet and pretty peppy for its size. I was glad I had version 3 ca and the 52 volt pack on board. The power was smooth and it coasted very well with this motor. Good luck with the project. I would forget about a mid drive myself on something like a trike. Way to much chain to be listening to and dealing with. I would go with 52 volts if you can and a big ring up front like a 52 tooth if you can. With this kind of a set up you only really need one big ring on the front in my option

Question for you, do you have e-assist on yours? that is the main feature im looking for in going ebike.. it seems it is not a standard option, that i would have to purchase like 300-500 more in parts to make it e-assist... just want to make sure im understanding correctly

 

[waynebergman]

Storks, yes i can see where the PAS would be super nice for road riding if that is what you are referring to. I did not have a active system giving motor power BASED on pedal input. I only had a half twist throttle for motor assist and I am not sure what your options are for making the mac work with PAS. I have PAS on my mid drive trail bike and I can see now the attraction for its use especially when riding on the road. Others on this forum will know how to get the pas to work with the mac.

 

[Storx]

Storks, yes i can see where the PAS would be super nice for road riding if that is what you are referring to. I did not have a active system giving motor power BASED on pedal input. I only had a half twist throttle for motor assist and I am not sure what your options are for making the mac work with PAS. I have PAS on my mid drive trail bike and I can see now the attraction for its use especially when riding on the road. Others on this forum will know how to get the pas to work with the mac.

Ya, i fear that is the downsize to the MAC, as much as i want to lean toward it.. none of the geared hub motors i found come with PAS option.. I found a few that added PAS with different ways to MAC today.. but they also added around another $700-900 in cost to gain that feature...

 

[amberwolf]

I was told to shy away from mid drive units with a catrike when i asked the trike guys forum, the aluminum frame develops cracks from the torque from the motor bending the boom constantly...

FWIW, assuming the torque you yourself can put into the cranks is the same as the torque the motor can (and assuming only one is used at a time), then your own torque will do more fatigue damage, as it flexes the boom back and forth while the motor torque would be constant.

If you use them together then the torques add together and that's different, but it's still the repeated flexing back and forth that does the damage, generally, not usually the constant torque. So as you apply motor power and take it away, that would cause flexing, but the flexing is many many many more cycles from pedalling, and assuming the same torque for both, means more wear from pedalling than motor.



Is the boom adjustable-length on your trike? If it is, you could simply replace the boom with a steel one, and that eliminates the likelihood of fatigue cracking along any part of the boom itself (though it still leaves the possibility of it at it's mounting points, depending on how they are made, but the farther the mounting point is from the end of the boom, the less stress there should be on it, if it's the type where the boom slides into or over the frame tubing itself.

 

[Storx]

I was told to shy away from mid drive units with a catrike when i asked the trike guys forum, the aluminum frame develops cracks from the torque from the motor bending the boom constantly...

FWIW, assuming the torque you yourself can put into the cranks is the same as the torque the motor can (and assuming only one is used at a time), then your own torque will do more fatigue damage, as it flexes the boom back and forth while the motor torque would be constant.

If you use them together then the torques add together and that's different, but it's still the repeated flexing back and forth that does the damage, generally, not usually the constant torque. So as you apply motor power and take it away, that would cause flexing, but the flexing is many many many more cycles from pedalling, and assuming the same torque for both, means more wear from pedalling than motor.



Is the boom adjustable-length on your trike? If it is, you could simply replace the boom with a steel one, and that eliminates the likelihood of fatigue cracking along any part of the boom itself (though it still leaves the possibility of it at it's mounting points, depending on how they are made, but the farther the mounting point is from the end of the boom, the less stress there should be on it, if it's the type where the boom slides into or over the frame tubing itself.

IDK, many of the people who have put mid drives on the catrikes shortly afterwards created cracks along the main frame area where the boom support section is welded...Honestly i don't know if it has anything to do with the motor myself, because there has been many postings of people without motors cracking them as well.. so it may just be a weak joint to begin with due to aluminum construction....
Here is one that occurred on a post a guy put a mid drive on 2 months prior..

 

[Triketech]

That's not the first one I've seen.

Catrikes are light weight and don't play all too well with a Mid Drive, unless you're short enough to slide the boom in all the way.

 

[Rassy]

I'm going to throw out something that like all other options also has it's up and down sides. My riding buddy has an older aluminum frame 27 speed Terra Trike that he let me motorize a couple of years ago after resisting for several years.

I had a little Bafang geared front hub in a 16" wheel sitting on the shelf and he had a "BOB" trailer. He purchased a 48V 10AH Ping battery and I put it all together and he loves it. It's a little slow, because the hub motor was wound for use in a 26" wheel, but they make versions that are wound for 20" wheels which would be faster.

I also made a pusher trailer for a friend that rides a delta hand cycle, using an old BD36 laced in a 16" wheel and that motor pushes him about 23 MPH, with a 48V battery, on the flat.

One of the advantages of the trailer is that, other than the addition of a throttle and a hitch, there are no changes to the trike or it's drive train, so you can ride without the trailer and have the same ride you had before.

Also, with the trailer available for hauling the battery, that pesky problem is gone, plus you have room to haul even more stuff. I no longer use a pusher trailer, but I do have a little two wheel trailer that is very handy when more capacity is needed.

Any way, after a couple of rides, my buddy that had resisted going electric for years, said "why didn't you set me up with this years ago?".

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[Eskimo]

MXUS 500W geared hub comes with nicely working PAS. It"s on sale at least in Finland.
PAS is great on a velomobile. Throttle is okay and sometimes needed, but good PAS is as good as riding gets.

 

[Storx]

MXUS 500W geared hub comes with nicely working PAS. It"s on sale at least in Finland.
PAS is great on a velomobile. Throttle is okay and sometimes needed, but good PAS is as good as riding gets.

Could you post where its on sale at?

 

[Eskimo]

MXUS 500W geared hub comes with nicely working PAS. It"s on sale at least in Finland.
PAS is great on a velomobile. Throttle is okay and sometimes needed, but good PAS is as good as riding gets.

Could you post where its on sale at?

http://www.greencycle.fi/product/192/greencycle---500w-36v-napamoottorisarja

It"s basic PAS without torque sensor, but programming on that five-speed panel makes it quite smooth compared to those rough three-speed things few years ago.
I enjoy pedaling with it. I have it with DD. Old three-speed things were horrible.
That controller has 63V caps. Works fine with 54V.

 

[amberwolf]

Honestly i don't know if it has anything to do with the motor myself, because there has been many postings of people without motors cracking them as well.. so it may just be a weak joint to begin with due to aluminum construction....

https://www.google.com/search?q=catrike++crack&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

 

[dogman dan]

Back it up bit maybe? If you are still deciding on geared or dd for a hub motor setup, you need to evaluate your needs to make the best decision which to get.

Though one model of a kit may be pas, and another throttle only, I can assure you that somewhere, you can get either kind of motor with pas. If you want true torque sensing PAS, then you go with a kit that includes a direct plug in CA V3. Go straight to Grin Technology and get the best.

But back to the motors, Geared shines in city riding. Stop and start, if you have to stop as much as once a mile, geared will be much more efficient. I think your total weight is best limited to 300 pounds with motors like the Mac. So if you are 225, ok. If you are 275, time to look at direct drive motors, especially if you need to climb truly long hills. Like 2 miles long or longer.

Nothing like a good DD motor, quiet, reliable, when your riding is more like 50 miles at a time with stops at most every ten miles.

Pick your motor based on your ride, your weight, not just one has pas and the other does not.

Because of the dirt trail use,,, I'd lean to the Mac for sure, if you aren't a big boy. Like city riding, dirt trails are pretty similar. Not complete stop, but still go brake, go brake. And still plenty durable enough for long rides with the roadies. You can try just a throttle at first. IMO, once you do get the hang of it, a throttle is the only way to go, ESPECIALLY for dirt. Jam the grip against the throttle for third world cruise control on the long haul rides.

 

[ddk]

...
IDK, many of the people who have put mid drives on the catrikes shortly afterwards created cracks along the main frame area where the boom support section is welded...Honestly i don't know if it has anything to do with the motor myself, because there has been many postings of people without motors cracking them as well.. so it may just be a weak joint to begin with due to aluminum construction....
Here is one that occurred on a post a guy put a mid drive on 2 months prior..

That's a manufacturing defect, as in the manufacturer is improperly welding aluminum/aluminum, creating the problem.
I seriously doubt the improper weld could hold up to any force.

 

[Storx]

Back it up bit maybe? If you are still deciding on geared or dd for a hub motor setup, you need to evaluate your needs to make the best decision which to get.

Though one model of a kit may be pas, and another throttle only, I can assure you that somewhere, you can get either kind of motor with pas. If you want true torque sensing PAS, then you go with a kit that includes a direct plug in CA V3. Go straight to Grin Technology and get the best.

But back to the motors, Geared shines in city riding. Stop and start, if you have to stop as much as once a mile, geared will be much more efficient. I think your total weight is best limited to 300 pounds with motors like the Mac. So if you are 225, ok. If you are 275, time to look at direct drive motors, especially if you need to climb truly long hills. Like 2 miles long or longer.

Nothing like a good DD motor, quiet, reliable, when your riding is more like 50 miles at a time with stops at most every ten miles.

Pick your motor based on your ride, your weight, not just one has pas and the other does not.

Because of the dirt trail use,,, I'd lean to the Mac for sure, if you aren't a big boy. Like city riding, dirt trails are pretty similar. Not complete stop, but still go brake, go brake. And still plenty durable enough for long rides with the roadies. You can try just a throttle at first. IMO, once you do get the hang of it, a throttle is the only way to go, ESPECIALLY for dirt. Jam the grip against the throttle for third world cruise control on the long haul rides.

You seem to be more educated on all of the e motors specifics, so which one would you recommend for my trike..
My Location is Tampa, FL... Very flat riding area.. maybe 175ft change in elevation on a 12 mile ride...
My Goals with the trike:
1) I want to take my current wattage output that is averaging me around 18mph on the trails i have been riding and increase that to 20-22mph range, so im looking for the pedal assist mode so i can keep up with 2 wheel road bikes, because i have made friends since i started riding that ride the same trails as me and at first i tried to ride with them, but they stop inviting me because i couldnt keep up with them so they get the exercise out of it, otherwise they have to slow down for me...
2) There are hundreds of hiking trails at all the nature parks around me that i can ride on.. ive ridden down a few already, but i was going slower than i would if i had just got out and walked due to the amount of work it takes to pedal in the sand for miles.. the first few miles im ok.. but then i just ware out and the adventure is no longer fun.. i would like to make these trips easier with the pedal assist multiplier...
3) Im looking to join a few long distance rides a month that i cant accomplish now at my current riding condition, there is a group that rides the local pinellas trail near me, they start at the north end and ride the 42mile trail south, then stop for lunch and ride back to their cars in the same day.. I tried it one weekend and i was able to accomplish the entire 84 mile trip, but i spent 90% of that all by myself.. there seems to be 3 groups on there rides.. the roadies with the ultralight super fast bikes who do like 24mph on the trail, the weekend roadie's that have the fast bikes that can keep up with group 1, but since they dont ride all that often they only average like 18-20mph... and then there is the senior group/beach cruiser group that typically just go at a snails pace and usually never finish the trip to the breakfast place.. i was way faster than the seniors and beach cruiser guys by like 6-7mph, but i was just shy of keeping up with the 2nd group of roadies while pedaling my butt off.. i averaged 16.4mph on the ride..

 

[Storx]

Back it up bit maybe? If you are still deciding on geared or dd for a hub motor setup, you need to evaluate your needs to make the best decision which to get.

Though one model of a kit may be pas, and another throttle only, I can assure you that somewhere, you can get either kind of motor with pas. If you want true torque sensing PAS, then you go with a kit that includes a direct plug in CA V3. Go straight to Grin Technology and get the best.

But back to the motors, Geared shines in city riding. Stop and start, if you have to stop as much as once a mile, geared will be much more efficient. I think your total weight is best limited to 300 pounds with motors like the Mac. So if you are 225, ok. If you are 275, time to look at direct drive motors, especially if you need to climb truly long hills. Like 2 miles long or longer.

Nothing like a good DD motor, quiet, reliable, when your riding is more like 50 miles at a time with stops at most every ten miles.

Pick your motor based on your ride, your weight, not just one has pas and the other does not.

Because of the dirt trail use,,, I'd lean to the Mac for sure, if you aren't a big boy. Like city riding, dirt trails are pretty similar. Not complete stop, but still go brake, go brake. And still plenty durable enough for long rides with the roadies. You can try just a throttle at first. IMO, once you do get the hang of it, a throttle is the only way to go, ESPECIALLY for dirt. Jam the grip against the throttle for third world cruise control on the long haul rides.

Wait a minute, i was just reading something that said the complete opposite... said if you want to climb hills or weight is on the heavier side geared is better for direct drive.. im confused...

 

[Storx]

I totally read that wrong about the weight.. this is my question now.. Im currently 263lbs, but i have been steadily loosing weight since i became more active when i bought my catrike expedition, so i expect to loose more weight over the future months..If i got a Mac Geared setup would it be ok for my needs? im thinking either a 8 or 10 setup would benefit me the most since im in florida and i dont have to deal with hills.. there are the occasional ramped bridges that go over roads for the bike trails here, i have no issues pedaling these now, would that be an issue with an Mac geared motor? they are pretty steep, so stick my gearing in the smallest front and largest rear to accomplish these easily now...

I also finally got an email back from the dealer selling the Mac kits from a week ago, he told me there is 3 options for PAS on the Mac motor setup..

He said the simplest option is using this sensor plugged directly into the CAS plug on the harness for $35 bucks,
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=41_59&product_id=104

Install an V3 cycle analyst computer and add the PAS sensor by cycle analyst for $150
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=41_59&product_id=178 and http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=41_59&product_id=163

Lastly, the option he recommended, but didn't say why... its $250 by adding a torque sensing bottom bracket sensor paired with a Cycle analyst

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

My Location is Tampa, FL... Very flat riding area.. maybe 175ft change in elevation on a 12 mile ride...
My Goals with the trike:
1) I want to take my current wattage output that is averaging me around 18mph on the trails i have been riding and increase that to 20-22mph range, so im looking for the pedal assist mode so i can keep up with 2 wheel road bikes, because i have made friends since i started riding that ride the same trails as me and at first i tried to ride with them, but they stop inviting me because i couldnt keep up with them so they get the exercise out of it, otherwise they have to slow down for me...
2) There are hundreds of hiking trails at all the nature parks around me that i can ride on.. ive ridden down a few already, but i was going slower than i would if i had just got out and walked due to the amount of work it takes to pedal in the sand for miles.. the first few miles im ok.. but then i just ware out and the adventure is no longer fun.. i would like to make these trips easier with the pedal assist multiplier...
3) Im looking to join a few long distance rides a month that i cant accomplish now at my current riding condition, there is a group that rides the local pinellas trail near me, they start at the north end and ride the 42mile trail south, then stop for lunch and ride back to their cars in the same day.. I tried it one weekend and i was able to accomplish the entire 84 mile trip, but i spent 90% of that all by myself.. there seems to be 3 groups on there rides.. the roadies with the ultralight super fast bikes who do like 24mph on the trail, the weekend roadie's that have the fast bikes that can keep up with group 1, but since they dont ride all that often they only average like 18-20mph... and then there is the senior group/beach cruiser group that typically just go at a snails pace and usually never finish the trip to the breakfast place.. i was way faster than the seniors and beach cruiser guys by like 6-7mph, but i was just shy of keeping up with the 2nd group of roadies while pedaling my butt off.. i averaged 16.4mph on the ride..

15 mph or a bit slower is about average on group rides so you are definitely on the faster end of that but quite a long way off the roadies.

How fast are you going in the sand slogging and how fast do you want to go in those conditions? That's by far the most difficult part of what you want to do, it will heat up motors and drain packs fast, most single speed motor drives aren't going to like 25 mph cruising and slow slogging at high torque levels. Sand is like climbing a very long hill as far as the motor is concerned and it will take the same sort of battery and motor to do it.

Maybe the Two Speed geared motor might be best for you? That way you could get the top end assist you need to go from 18 mph to 24 or so and the slow speed torque to get through all those miles of sand trails.

 

[Storx]

My Location is Tampa, FL... Very flat riding area.. maybe 175ft change in elevation on a 12 mile ride...
My Goals with the trike:
1) I want to take my current wattage output that is averaging me around 18mph on the trails i have been riding and increase that to 20-22mph range, so im looking for the pedal assist mode so i can keep up with 2 wheel road bikes, because i have made friends since i started riding that ride the same trails as me and at first i tried to ride with them, but they stop inviting me because i couldnt keep up with them so they get the exercise out of it, otherwise they have to slow down for me...
2) There are hundreds of hiking trails at all the nature parks around me that i can ride on.. ive ridden down a few already, but i was going slower than i would if i had just got out and walked due to the amount of work it takes to pedal in the sand for miles.. the first few miles im ok.. but then i just ware out and the adventure is no longer fun.. i would like to make these trips easier with the pedal assist multiplier...
3) Im looking to join a few long distance rides a month that i cant accomplish now at my current riding condition, there is a group that rides the local pinellas trail near me, they start at the north end and ride the 42mile trail south, then stop for lunch and ride back to their cars in the same day.. I tried it one weekend and i was able to accomplish the entire 84 mile trip, but i spent 90% of that all by myself.. there seems to be 3 groups on there rides.. the roadies with the ultralight super fast bikes who do like 24mph on the trail, the weekend roadie's that have the fast bikes that can keep up with group 1, but since they dont ride all that often they only average like 18-20mph... and then there is the senior group/beach cruiser group that typically just go at a snails pace and usually never finish the trip to the breakfast place.. i was way faster than the seniors and beach cruiser guys by like 6-7mph, but i was just shy of keeping up with the 2nd group of roadies while pedaling my butt off.. i averaged 16.4mph on the ride..

15 mph or a bit slower is about average on group rides so you are definitely on the faster end of that but quite a long way off the roadies.

How fast are you going in the sand slogging and how fast do you want to go in those conditions? That's by far the most difficult part of what you want to do, it will heat up motors and drain packs fast, most single speed motor drives aren't going to like 25 mph cruising and slow slogging at high torque levels. Sand is like climbing a very long hill as far as the motor is concerned and it will take the same sort of battery and motor to do it.

Maybe the Two Speed geared motor might be best for you? That way you could get the top end assist you need to go from 18 mph to 24 or so and the slow speed torque to get through all those miles of sand trails.

Could you post a link to which motor your talking about, a quick search came up empty

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

Could you post a link to which motor your talking about, a quick search came up empty

Lengthy thread on the two speed hub here..

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58490