Ebike fire

DogDipstick said:
As for your opinion, Tony... Do you think the sellers ebike was good enough to adhere to something such as a modern standard? In use by manufacturers ( real manufactures) today?

Your honest opinion reflects that the seller builds a bike that adheres to all these modern, in common use, standards?

Honest question.

No.

My answer was yes before this tragic event occurred. I never really took a close look at the build. As far as I was concerned, the guy’s got experience, now he’s building his own frames and selling bikes. The American Dream.

The legal issue is that all these bikes are technically motorcycles. I heard the term “legal grey area” on this thread, no these aren’t legal at all. If you’re legal, you either sell true ebikes which do 20-25mph or whatever, or you are a motor vehicle manufacturer. Or, you build one or a handful of motorcycles and go through the home built registration process.

There’s a lot of stuff that bothers me about it. A lot of times I’ve seen things that weren’t up to my standard but somebody else said “it works fine”. I’ve learned to accept things that work well enough from people with more experience than me.

The xt90 discharge bothered me until I found that bike is only running like 100 amps peak. That kind of bothers me too because one of my batteries in that size would be capable of 200a peak at least. While I will run anything in a personal build, for customers I only used brand new SK cells. A typical sk 45ah pouch would have the standard 1/3/5c ratings or 225a peak. My builds use QS8 primary connectors and XT90 charge ports. Usually I just have the one QS8 soldered to 6awg for the 200a customers or 8awg for the 100a ones. The problem I have is with the BMS. I trust none. But I can’t just sell batteries without protection. My opinion is that batteries should have no bms and be manually balanced from time to time. I can’t just go and trust a Chinese BMS just because a lot of other people use them. Possibly a monitoring system rather than a full on management system to report a problem would be best. The BMS needs to be incapable of scrapping the pack if the circuit fails.

I’ve been designing a frame for a while. I wanted to do it in chromo and asked a local shop if they would, but they just told me to redesign it in aluminum. It takes non trivial preparation and knowledge that I just don’t possess. They do, and they don’t want to mess with it.

Reading about the tob welds is troubling. I guess it means those frames may have invisible trouble spots and may be prone to cracking.

The welded disc rotor appears to have been done to fit on a 6” dropout qs hub; those only have the freewheel with a 6-bolt iso brake pattern. Aka tiny. The right way to do it would have been to run an 8” dropout motor which would come with the big rotor mount, then have a machined freewheel adapter for the fake pedals.




DogDipstick, on your batteries with the compression straps, how do you know that the batts are actually getting an even compressive load on every square inch?
 

Attachments

  • AB4451A2-B6E5-45B6-9370-31CC8A501684.jpeg
    AB4451A2-B6E5-45B6-9370-31CC8A501684.jpeg
    685 KB · Views: 603
Tony01 said:
The welded disc rotor appears to have been done to fit on a 6” dropout qs hub; those only have the freewheel with a 6-bolt iso brake pattern. Aka tiny. The right way to do it would have been to run an 8” dropout motor which would come with the big rotor mount, then have a machined freewheel adapter for the fake pedals.

I think this is a bettr choice when designing pit bike rotors to fitonto a ISo 6 bolt mount. As opposed to welding, warping, and using a junk speed-hole alligator wave pattern rotor to begin with. Welding always warps and sets up permanent stresses in metal. Bake the chrome right out of the stainless. Anything " precision" is not welded into fitment, it is ground flat AFTER welding, or casting, or forging. Machining, I think it is called.
rsz_319514758_1478368592674380_5676645983884788841_n(1).jpg





Tony01 said:
DogDipstick, on your batteries with the compression straps, how do you know that the batts are actually getting an even compressive load on every square inch?

I dont. I estimate. Its not. Perfectly distributed within the structure of the pack. It is not a perfect world.


I originally got the idea for the system by looking at the compression/restraint system for the GBS line of LiFepo products. The Chevrolet tensions its packs with two long, 1/4-20 rods that run lengthwise through the pack. They bottom out the plates and use the foam next to the cell for even compression loading on every cell.
GBS SYSTEM.jpggbs_4_pack_1_1.jpg

I use a strong polycarbonate plate across the face of the cell... , but yes, it does flex a little. I try to place the straps in the correct location for even distributions. Initially, on my first packs I wrapped up with the strapping tools, i took the time to figure " if I crank it this hard it gives me this much tension in the strap and this much tension means this much load is distributed across the face of the cell"...

So Tork ( in inch pounds, does not take alot of turning to make a strap tight) > screw of tensioner> tensioner tensions band(s)> applied force distributed on face of cell> long life. Or at least this is my hopes. I have good result, strapping strong plates to each side. My dad checked my math, and explained the forces involved in such an undertaking. Told me, how much tension, should be in each strap, to provide this much psi loading, on the faces of the cell stack.


And to test this? I did not use a 0-5v load cell,I used a lab press with a foot diameter psi gauge to get to the correct 3-5psi I need. I put the pack in the lab press, with its two plates, its two pieces of poron foam under them, and the assy in the press to see what 3-5psi on the face of the cell feels like. Applied this force, Took a height measurement. Mm. I try to tension the straps to replicate this, evenly.

b3c89c0fb2170824a63299120103c0d9_medium.jpgimg.jpg

I tired to take a pic of our lab press but it is 3mB and I hate shrinking images for Endless Sphere so here is a pic of a generic one. Well, maybe I will show you ours if I get time to shrink images cause ours has a beautiful gauge on it. The gauge hooks up to that port on the lower left of the lower pic. lol. I used the press to kind of " feel" how much I needed to compress the plate to get that required 3-5psi on the face of the cell ( I have read that up to 15psi is acceptable on some cells, so chose a happy medium).

....there are many variables. The stretch over time of the banding is one. Will loosen over long times.. lose 20-40% of its tension, in the band, depending on many factors. Humidity ( mass fraction of water vapor in the air) in the nylon or polyvinyl band. Changes tension. Might not be uniform, so I try to use a strong plate. I might not get congruent figures. I just try to have a good " feel" for it... and yes it makes the pack bound tight and what feels like a much stronger assy, just beeing clamped between the bands. I was told by many it takes a good amount of force to get a 3-5psi load on both faces of a 60 square inch cell face. I feel better with it, than without, given the common knowledge consensus of 3-5 psi ( I have even heard up to 15psi, ).

It is not a little. It is like the lbs force of a 180lb human standing on the pack. No joke. I will stand on one of my packs no prob. Not worried. Can you say that about your typical 18650 assy? Lol. I do leave the pack in the mower shed for the first night once I compress them, just in case something goes wrong, or I did not catch something, and I dont know about it and I have an event.

Nasa has great documentation on the efficacy of restrained vs non-restrained cells and the OCV and output figures when running in vacume environments. The congruence of balance is what we are looking for, long term.
 
I had a 8.5 year old lifepo4 A123 pouch 24s battery just wrapped with plastic storage containers sides and reinforced duct tape pulled around with super strength. At 8 amps I don't think that battery was swelling anywhere. Maybe at 180 or 200 amps.
 
DogDipstick said:
I tired to take a pic of our lab press but it is 3mB and I hate shrinking images for Endless Sphere

Neptronix built into the forum an autoconverter, so unless you have upload time or bandwidth limits, the forum will take care of the shrinking for you. ;)
 
ZeroEm said:
Buying with out a warranty is putting yourself out there. With that said we will see if TOB keeps selling or if people get the message that they could get burnt!

Once a hack always a hack…
 
So how's it going for this guy is he going to replace the bike I wonder how he bought the bike PayPal or a credit card that would guarantee it's is what it is ?
 
If you follow the reddit drama, it seems like TOB is doing a combination of ignoring it, pretending it's not an issue, and blaming the buyer for modifying the battery. He posted a weird looking pic of one of his janky looking battery's with a wiry mess, and what looks like a photoshop addition of a dog and a jar of peanut butter, saying something like, "my battery is doing just fine after 4 years". Why is the dog and the peanut butter so clearly photoshopped?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/zn0jy0/my_battery_is_holding_up_just_fine/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
 
Yeah the way TOB is handling this is scary for the ebike community in general.
 
We see people do crazy stuff, it's their stuff so ok. But to sell Crazy stuff that is just wrong but it happens. All I can tell people is if it's done correctly there is few issues and long life.
 
ZeroEm said:
We see people do crazy stuff, it's their stuff so ok. But to sell Crazy stuff that is just wrong

This 100%. My big ol motorcycle battery, while secure and stable and tucked away in a case, is rather messy to look at, full of imprecisely cut foam and packing, and not a great job with the shrinkwrap. But that's fine, because it's safe and I'm not selling it to anybody.
 
One look at that welded disk brake would be enough to make me not trust *anything* done by whoever did that. That's just stupid, and to think you can sell shit like that to people is criminal.
 
Back
Top