eBike-Specific Forks?

PeteCress

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Joined
Dec 15, 2009
Messages
354
Location
Paoli (near Philadelphia) Pennsylvania USA
The wheel I have (9C) has bolts so big that the nuts defeat the safety/retention lips on the fork.

Shouldn't there be eBike-specific forks - with re-inforced dropouts, provision for those larger bolts, and maybe some sort of integrated torque arm/attachment?

The current situation seems like a lawyer's feeding frenzy waiting to happen.
 
IMHO a frontwheel drive Bicycle is a lawyer's feeding frenzy waiting to happen anyway.
When a rear wheel loses traction, its usualy managable and recoverable.
When a front wheel loses traction, it isn't.
Add power and weight to a front wheel, and you decrease the available traction on that wheel

Sure, a fork could be made for ebikes that would be safer. imagine a fork with a torque arm built to bolt on securly that could retain the wheel even if the axle nuts were left off. Not hard to design, probably not hard to get manufactured.
Probably not cheap, though, unless you could sell a lot of them.
 
I got two front wheel hubs. I've never even come close to having a problem. I think the risk is exaggerated. Just make sure your fork dropout is flat or almost flat so that the bolt tightens flat against the dropout. I use two torque arms. If you are really worried, just buy another torque arm. Put one on each side.
 
Has anyone ever reported a problem on a steel fork using only one torque arm? If so, I haven't heard of it, even with dudes around here running 72v+
 
Drunkskunk said:
When a rear wheel loses traction, its usualy managable and recoverable.
When a front wheel loses traction, it isn't.
Add power and weight to a front wheel, and you decrease the available traction on that wheel.

The Complete opposite happened to me and i have over 6,000 Km (4,000 mi) with front wheel drive.

A powered Front wheel acts more like a pulling action and is very controlable, i've never wiped out with a powered front wheel, however I did wipe-out twice from the rear wheel slipping out from the side. Just stating real life experience.

BTW, One torque arm is plenty. Just make sure you check your tightness on the nuts first couple miles of use.
 
Roger that on the rear wheel lockup! I had a major accident when my old trike spun and flipped from a chain suck into the rear freewheel! Front lock makes you go straight! (Unless you lose your front wheel or your fork breaks!) Neither circumstance is very good fun! Somewhere there is a long thread on this subject!
otherDoc
 
recumbent said:
i've never wiped out with a powered front wheel, however I did wipe-out twice from the rear wheel slipping out from the side.

You're on a recumbant, the physics involved are diffrent.

I agree up to a point that only one torque arm may be needed in some applications. But since the average joe who pops in here isn't mechanicly inclined, and may not be able to identify when 2 arms are needed, or only one would be safe, then I'm recomending 2.
 
I absolutely agree with drunkskunk! In spite of my situation (also on a recumbent) nothing could be worse than losing a front wheel or dropout at speed. Steel, non-suspension front fork and 2 torque arms are the safest way to go!
otherDoc
 
Drunkskunk is right about the lawyers, but wrong about the handling. When a front tire skids, you are much more in controll if you can power up the front wheel and grab traction. But there are definite differences in how fronties and rear hubs handle on different bikes, different riding etc.

For example, on the street. Say you lock up your front wheel braking and lose traction and skid. You are screwed, pretty much. You can't steer, and nothing is going to get that wheel back in controll. You are either layin it down, or at least gonna skid in a straight line till you hit something or stop. It won't matter if you are front hub or rear in this situation.

Again on the street, say you are cornering, off the throttle, off the brakes, and hit something slick like a sand patch or water. Chances are you are screwed again, but if you are badass, you might peg the throttle and grab enough front wheel traction and get back in controll. Better still, had you cornered correctly, braking on the straight, and grabbing throttle as you enter the corner, you would never have skidded in the first place. More likely you would have just had a squeak of slippage and then regained traction. Don't misunderstand, unless you rode a lot of two wheelers for decades, you may still shit your pants when the front wheel skids, but you may have no problem with the slick spot since the front wheel is pulling you through the corner. It just works, but not if you corner stupid, and use the front brakes during the cornering. The same situation with rear hub, you may be able to power out of it, using the rear tire, but it will require some badass riding skills.

Now on the dirt, a front hub is gonna act very differently. It's dirt, breaking traction and regaining it is only part of the fun. With a front hub, on flat terrain, you can spin that tire through all the corners and just enjoy it. Just like you do with a rear hub. Sure it feels different, buy drifing is drifting, and if you know how, it's just not that wierd to do it on the front wheel.

Once you get on steep dirt hills though, then the front hub gets very disadvantaged. The weight all shifts to the back wheel, and you start spinning the rubber off the tire pretty fast if it's rocky. You get some assist, but you have to really charge your body onto the handlebars to get the wheel to grab. On a moderate slope, it kicks ass to have the rear wheel grabbing from pedaling and the front wheel grabbing from the motor. But get above 15% and you will start just spinning the tire getting nothing out of it. On the other hand, both the rear hub bikes I've taken on the same trails would wheelie me off the thing on a long enough 15% grade in the rocks. Nowdays when I ride those toughest trails, I just take the Giant, and pedal it. The lightness of the good fs mtb is better than a motor.

Back to the forks discussion. Pete may want to replace his forks with a mtb, or bmx type fork if his are very petite. Surly makes a good one I hear. Just something with big flat plates of steel for dropouts instead of a lightweight cup typical of a good road bike. If he's using a tourqe arm and has filed away some of the washer or some of the lawyer lips, or filled the gap with a c washer he's got little to worry about, but I like to use a beefy looking dropout when I mount a frontie for peace of mind.

When I broke my collarbones it had nothing to do with the motor, so you guys with rear hubs aren't exacty 100% risk free either. But I do agree, an axle spinout, or nuts working loose on a frontie is a nightmare. Frequent pre ride checks are mandatory no matter where your motor is mounted.

I would love to see the bike industry wake up and make a front hub motor specific suspension fork. Something with 80 mm travel and steel lower sections. All they would have to do is take an entry level fork, and make a set of steel lowers for it. RST could then sell a million of em to put on wallbikes. I got lucky one day at the flea, and found an old mongoose with steel suspension forks. It has about 50 mm of usable travel, vs the 20 -30 mm of usable travel on my comuters cheapo suspension forks. One thing about the cheap steel suspension forks though, they do have a stout dropout. I never once had a nut work loose on those forks.
 
I agree with the comment on FWD on hills. The weight shifts to the back and you loose traction in the front. My 88v Front GM setup wore the front tireout twice as fast as the rear.Cornering under power can be a bitch in unsavory conditions. Meaning wet pavement or sand and gravel can cause the bike to slide from under you. Running semi agressive tread or slicks can get caked easy in mud making a traction problem even worse. As far sas the fork issue. There are front suspension forks but its rare to find a chromoly steel suspension fork. Most now are magnesium . Magnesium is very brittle and snaps easily. I found this out the hard way. Mines snapped at 48v but the nuts and torque arm were tight enough to keep the wheel on. I ended up getting a Surly Instigator fork to match the height of the original suspension fork and its solid chromoly steel.. The drop outs were thick and solid. I had to dremel down the layer lips a little . I installed two torque arms and its handled 88v without any fatigue or signs of falling off. The motor was a very tight fit. If you must go front keep the voltages low. If you are going for power go to a rear setup the addition weight and traction will transfer the energy alot better than a front wheel can.
 
dogman said:
Pete may want to replace his forks with a mtb, or bmx type fork if his are very petite. Surly makes a good one I hear. Just something with big flat plates of steel for dropouts instead of a lightweight cup typical of a good road bike. If he's using a tourqe arm and has filed away some of the washer or some of the lawyer lips, or filled the gap with a c washer he's got little to worry about, but I like to use a beefy looking dropout when I mount a frontie for peace of mind.
My current (first) frontie fork is the rigid fork from my Surly 1x1 - but mounted on an old Ellsworth Isis FS frame. The 1x1 fork seems pretty beefy, but the axle doesn't go deep enough for the safety washers to sit in the space created by the lawyer lips.

It's also sus-corrected for only 80mm and the ISIS frame is built for 100. I want to put it back on the 1x1 frame, so I ordered an Instigator fork (which is sus-corrected for 100mm).

I'm also going to re-lace the FWD wheel onto a rim that's a proper width for fat tires and put something like a Bonetrasher "Fat Frank" or even one of my old Mutano Raptors up there to make it a little easier on the hands/shoulders over the bumps.

If the axle doesn't sit deep enough for the lawyer lips on the Instigator, I'll have to figure out what to do then.

Long-term, though, I still think I'm headed for RWD - mainly for the peace of mind, but also bc it's seems more curb-hopping friendly, stealthier, and amenable to using one of the front shocks I already have on hand if desired.
 
PeteCress said:
My current (first) frontie fork is the rigid fork from my Surly 1x1 - but mounted on an old Ellsworth Isis FS frame. The 1x1 fork seems pretty beefy, but the axle doesn't go deep enough for the safety washers to sit in the space created by the lawyer lips.

... I want to put it back on the 1x1 frame, so I ordered an Instigator fork (which is sus-corrected for 100mm).
The Instigator fork arrived today

*Exactly* the same misfit as on the 1x1 fork

I have to wonder if it's the axle and not the forks.
 
PeteCress said:
PeteCress said:
My current (first) frontie fork is the rigid fork from my Surly 1x1 - but mounted on an old Ellsworth Isis FS frame. The 1x1 fork seems pretty beefy, but the axle doesn't go deep enough for the safety washers to sit in the space created by the lawyer lips.

... I want to put it back on the 1x1 frame, so I ordered an Instigator fork (which is sus-corrected for 100mm).
The Instigator fork arrived today

*Exactly* the same misfit as on the 1x1 fork

I have to wonder if it's the axle and not the forks.

Time to break out a file.
 
PeteCress said:
PeteCress said:
My current (first) frontie fork is the rigid fork from my Surly 1x1 - but mounted on an old Ellsworth Isis FS frame. The 1x1 fork seems pretty beefy, but the axle doesn't go deep enough for the safety washers to sit in the space created by the lawyer lips.

... I want to put it back on the 1x1 frame, so I ordered an Instigator fork (which is sus-corrected for 100mm).
The Instigator fork arrived today

*Exactly* the same misfit as on the 1x1 fork

I have to wonder if it's the axle and not the forks.


You aren't seeing a "problem" per se', it's simply that quick-release forks are made for a 9mm axle and motors have 10mm flats. Some cheap-o forks have dropouts made for 3/8" (9.5mm) axles and these require little if any massaging.

-R
 
Heh Heh Heh. :D :) :( :eek: :shock: :? 8) :lol: :p :oops: :cry: :evil: :twisted: :roll: :wink: :!: :?: :idea: :arrow: :| :mrgreen:
 
I've never ridden a FWD bike, and I don't care to. ;)

However, the comments about locking the front wheel being OK seem completely backwards to my riding experiences.

Anytime on a motorcycle, or dirtbike that the front tire gets locked, even just for a split second, I've wrecked, and generally always a brutal wreck. I can and do lock the rear tire anytime I like at will, and it's a simple affair to counter-steer to keep the tail where it belongs.

On something with mountain bike geometery, I don't think I've ever had a front wheel lock. The center of gravity is high enough that it transfers weight to the front wheel and begins to stoppie well before it locks, even on dirt.

I think a recumbent being impossible to stoppie, and carrying the bulk of the weight on the rear could have drasticly different, maybe opposite effects to the wheels being locked than a high center of gravity mountian bike.
 
Modify the washers with a few notches to get around the lawyer lips. If it's a deep cup, then the C washers from Ebikes.ca are real nice. I just got some two days ago.

There may still though, be an issue with the radius of the larger axle on the hub motor. The round side of the axle is 12 mm or so and the forks 10 mm. so the fork may have a tightish radius on the botom of the dropout. Most find that filing a bit of a point onto the axle itself a good solution to this problem. Most have found the surly forks a good solution to finding a good fork, but they aren't actually made for a hub motor. Maybe they will catch on to the market they are tapping and put out a fork with bomber dropouts like bmx forks have.

As for locking up the front hub, try getting your water bottle dropped into the front wheel while moving sometime. It's real fun, till your head hits the curb. I was leaned way down to get the bottle of course, so when my wheel locked I was dead meat. Again, lots of things can lock a front wheel up, motor or no motor.

BTW, I just mounted my motor on a new commuter frame, including alloy suspension forks. The install took a few tries, and a different fork than the first attempt, but with the C washers and two torque arms on a mid wattage motor I feel safe enough. I may break the forks eventually, but the wheel is going to stay put. Using the C washers and getting the fit perfect is the key, so I didn't put a crack in the dropouts tightening the nut on a bad fit.
 
dogman said:
Modify the washers with a few notches to get around the lawyer lips. If it's a deep cup, then the C washers from Ebikes.ca are real nice. I just got some two days ago.

There may still though, be an issue with the radius of the larger axle on the hub motor. The round side of the axle is 12 mm or so and the forks 10 mm. so the fork may have a tightish radius on the botom of the dropout. Most find that filing a bit of a point onto the axle itself a good solution to this problem.
Filing the axle got it to fit pretty much in the bottom of the dropout slots.


But the washer that prevents rotation is hopeless: it's folded edge (that sb in the slot) is a good 6mm above where it should be.


Trimming that washer to where it would fit within the lawyer lips would remove so much material as to totally defeat it's anti-rotation function. OTOH, maybe that function is moot in the context of torque arms. But still.... this seems like a *very* sloppy implementation for something that's supposed to be "bolt-on".
 
Both Suntour and Zoom make suspension fork that are intended for e bikes with front motor. I still think they are alloy lowers but will post some info when I get the parts. I know a factory that manufactures a whole range of suspension fork and will try to get down there again sometime and see if they can put together a combination of their higher end (admitedly not so high end) with steel lowers and maybe see if they can even stronger dropouts fitted. Alternatively it shouldn't be so tricky to get a plate made up that fitted onto a specific steel suspension fork to prevent spinout and retained the motor in the fork no matter what.

How have you guys found suspension forks stand up to the constant torque that a strong hub motor puts onto the fork. It's caused some cheap forks I'm using to start binding.
 
If you have a tourqe arm Pete, it won't matter if the tabs on the torque washers ever get into the slot. Most of us bolt up the hub, and then with a hammer and punch, bend the tab down into the slot if we don't have a tourqe arm. If the lawyer lips are just two little tabs, most people file them flat. The main thing is that you risk a spun out axle if the washers lie crooked.

The point of your original post and later replies is still valid, the kits are not sutiable for installing on all bikes, and solutions to the problems are pretty much DIY. Just a few years ago few people had motors on anything but beach cruisers but lithium batteries changed everything. Now we want it all.

Reply to Cell Man. The cheap steel forks from the 1" headset bikes I rode for 5000 miles never bound up, they were too floppy to have that problem.

I just yesterday was installing a motor on a Rockshocks dart 1 fork, and found I put too much spreading force on it, the motor was a bit too wide. After I got it on there, the shocks were stuck. So I can see that with a better shock, everything about the fit must be perfect. But I dout the motor pulling forward is any worse than the forces a fork encounters when dropping off or climbing up a 16" ledge, so I doubt the motor tourqe would be as big an issue as the initial fit.
 
I've been thinking about another ebike build using my front 9C motor on a suspension fork. The SR Suntour M-2025 and the RST Omni series that appear on some low-end bikes have steel lowers and should work well. The Trek 820 or 3500 both use the M-2025 fork and are on my short list. I'm watching eBay and Craigslist for now to see what turns up.

The forks eZee uses can be purchased here; http://www.nycewheels.com/ezee-parts.html and the funny thing is they are alloy and not steel. EZee does however use a bolt-on torque plate with these forks...I think(???).

-R
 
dogman said:
The main thing is that you risk a spun out axle if the washers lie crooked.
Even with torque arms?

I'm reluctant to defeat the lawyer lips - having had my butt saved by them on one occasion - although obviously the torque arms would perform the same function of holding the wheel in if the wheel nuts became loose.

The Sun RhynoLyte rim was waiting for me when I got back from the day's ride. 25 miles, only 4.6 amp-hours.

But now I have to do the spoke-length calculation thing. Just emailed Jason to try to get the dimensions of my hub - since it's too big for my calipers.
 
PeteCress said:
But now I have to do the spoke-length calculation thing for the new rim. Just emailed Jason to try to get the dimensions of my hub - since it's too big for my calipers.

The spoke calculator at ebikes.ca has the 9C numbers input for you, just enter the ERD of the rim (Rhyno Lite 26" = 548mm) and you get the result (168mm, for 16mm nipples instead of 12mm reduce by 3mm to 165mm).

http://www.ebikes.ca/SpokeCalc.shtml

-R
 
Yeah Pete, if the washers are laying at an angle on the lawyer lips, the result is usually a loosening of the nut, followed by a spinout. Though the torque arm should save your bacon and keep the wheel on the bike, the dropouts can still be damaged by the spinout. The space under the oversise washer is the problem, and the washer will eventually deform into the gap allowing the nut to get loose.

It's really crucial to have all the washers and stuff lie flat on the dropouts, front or rear motor.
 
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