Electric Bike for riding on beach on sand

Hi,

You might find some good ideas here (Fat Bikes Forum):
Mountain Bike Forums > Classic Mountain Bike Forums > Fat Bikes Forum
http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=164
One sticky:
Fat Bike history

Published: November 26, 2006

In the snow on the wintery trails around Anchorage these days can be found the imprint of Mark Gronewald's success.

It is writ in the shallow chevrons of the print of a bike tire nearly 4 inches wide.

Years after Gronewald first advocated the fat-tire bike as a viable alternative for winter transportation and recreation, his vision is rolling up hills and dipping into valleys across Southcentral.

The FatBike, as Gronewald calls it, has arrived.

Visit almost any bike shop in Anchorage today, and you will find a fat-tire bike on display. Most shops display them prominently.

Unfortunately, it is hard to know whether to congratulate Gronewald or console him.

That's because the owner of Wildfire Designs Bicycles in Palmer -- builder of the FatBike that first attracted attention by tying for victory in the 2001 Iditasport Impossible human-powered race from Knik to Nome -- no longer drives the fat-tire phenomenon.

Gronewald is still in the FatBike business. He's subcontracted frame construction to DeSalvo Cycles in Ashland, Ore., but he's still building bikes, selling wheels and rims for fat-tire conversions and promoting winter mountain biking.

Surly Bikes hit the trails last year with a reasonably priced (at least by upscale mountain-bike standards) fat-tire that's built in Taiwan. The Surly Pugsley, as the bike is called, is the fat bike you'll see in most Anchorage shops.

"When you design bikes up in Minnesota you have to think fat, especially if you want a ride that can handle the Midwest's snowstorms and mud," the magazine Hooked on the Outdoors said at the rollout of the Pugs last year. "The Pugsley (is) a mischievous bike that rolls on super-pudgy 4-inch-wide, 26-inch rims. ...The Pugsley eats up snow and slush, but it's also the ideal ride for beach bums looking to cruise the sand or explorers looking to off-road the outback. Nature's worst will never stand in the way of your commute again."

Nice bit of revisionist history that conveniently overlooks Gronewald and bike builder John Evingson, once of Anchorage.

Both of those men have been playing with fat-tire bike designs for years. But Gronewald says the origins of the FatBike go back even further.

He traces the lineage to Texan Ray "El Remolino" Molino, who experimented with wide-tire bikes for riding on sand in the 1980s. Remolino modified bikes to accept super, extra-wide rims that could support monster tires. He eventually pushed rims to such widths -- three times wider than regular rims -- that special bike frames were needed to accommodate them.

"He was before me," Gronewald said, "and he had a couple prototypes before that. They weren't quite as refined."

Gronewald took the Remolino concept and started tinkering with refinements six or seven years ago. Eventually he had a reliable, solidly functioning FatBike. By the middle of this decade his FatBikes were cleaning up in the ultimate test of fat-tire bikes -- extreme races across the snowy winter trails of Alaska....

Big 26" tires on 29ers are a good way to go (thread devoted to that topic):
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=360911
FAT 26" tires on a 29er for snow?

Not sure this is the best forum for this, but hopefully someone has tried this. Has anyone tried really fat 26" tires on their 29er for winter riding? This will of course depend a lot on your frame and fork, but what are the fattest tires that would fit? I did some measuring, and don't think an Endomorph will fit in the rear, but maybe a Gazza 3.0? I have a Pace fork on the front, and the width measures about 95mm. I understand the endomorph measured 94mm mounted to a large marge rim, but what if it were mounted on a narrower rim, would if fit? Since the Endo is very expensive, I thought I would check here first to see if anyone has tried it. I have seen pictures of an Endo in a Bontrager switchblade fork, but not sure what rim it was mounted on. Any insight would be appreciated....
Another thread here:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=7696176&posted=1#post7696176
A 26" rim with a 3.7" tire results in a combination that is approximately the same diameter as a 29" tire. In other words, same "roll over" ability as a 29", but with considerably more cush and conformity to the terrain.

This setup is pretty impressive:
P1020869.jpg


Also nice:
IMG_0080.jpg

After lots of experimentation this is where I ended up...50mm Speedway Uma 29er rims, Ardent 2.4 front, WW 2.55 rear. In heavy snow, I can run ~10psi. On dry slightly rocky trails 17psi or so.

This performs better than a 26x2.7 for my purposes (mostly snowy or mixed conditions), and is not as ridiculously heavy as the 26x3.0 DH tires. Unless you are going to have a full-blown fatbike, stay 29er.
 
my question is, have you ever ridden fwd ebike? if not, here's my take - my first ebike i built was fwd (never again) and on wet streets i found it far too easy for the front wheel to slide out under power, especially when turning. hard pack - i wouldn't expect you to have trouble but, sugar sand is another story. for me, the question is when the bike goes down do you want to hit face or bottom first?

also have you thought of the need for mud guards? if not, fwd with a high torque motor even at moderate voltage you'll have wheel spin and a face full of sand.

on a separate note, just found this:

http://www.fortunehanebrink.com/

4689.jpg
 
Yeah thats that 8 thousand dollar german bike i was referring to...the hanebrink...

Really impressive machine and i am wondering how a bmc powered pugsley would compare to that.I am guessing the pugsley will blow it away with 2 bmcs. I watched the youtube video on that hanebrink and it seems real slow...lots of drag with those huge tires...i bet that things really burns battery...i am hoping the pugsey is better for much cheaper.

I am mostly going to be riding on the wet pack sand...i am not sure if i will need two bmc's or not...but its really tempting to go with dual bmc's anyway since it would be such a hoot to do major climbs etc with 2 wheel drive. It just sounds fun to have 2 wheel drive.

I plan to put racks on front and back, and i am hoping they will serve as fenders...

I own a fwd drive bike and know the issues...your right it is a pain in ass on the offroad...so two wheel drive with separate throttles i am leaning towards now...
 
extremegreenmachine said:
i am hoping the pugsey is better for much cheaper.
It will. Those extra wide tires are good support, but limited by their small diameter that drags alot in soft terrain. What you gain on one side, shouldn't be lost on the other.
 
If you are only using power on the moist flats near the waves, I don't think you'll have a problem with traction whether you use a front-drive or a rear-drive. However...

Getting there may be a problem. To go over the soft dry sand of the main part of the beach to get to the wet-flats, I think a front drive will have some traction problems when using electric-only. You will definitely have to pedal the rear tire to help the front from spinning out when crossing the dry sand.

I think front-drive is the best starting point, and you can always add 2WD later if pedaling to assist the motor becomes too tiresome (some beaches are wider than others). Best of luck with whatever you choose...
 
motor wise - this conversation has been about a bmc but if you havent already looked at methods new forsale thread, it may be time.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=24515

he's offering a 9c 5x12 wind in a 20" wheel that sounds like it will climb walls and be happy doing it. plus they are at least 1/2 the price, 2 of those for the price of 1 bmc. you may want to ask him or luke about the efficiency comparison under load, be curious to hear how they compare. definitely be a trade off in top speed but no peanut butter gears to worry about, it may be worth looking into.
 
Found this terrific post about how to ride in the sand:

http://www.dreamride.com/sandskills.html

They say to keep the weight off the front tire...so maybe a front hub is the bad idea...but i am not sure if the 9 extra pounds is significant.

The main idea is to work hard to get the speed up and then float over the sand....

I am excited :)
 
I've ridden both and front drive is better on the soft sand despite the weight. I haven't ridden with really wide tires on the sand, so the soft stuff was never a pleasure, just a route to get down to the hard pack where the perfect riding is.
 
Ok so all the parts have been purchased, and Illia from E-bikes-sf is doing the build.

Here are the main components:

> Pugsley bicycle

> BMC 600 watt torque motor front wheel drive

> Roholoff 14 speed internal rear hub

>10ah 48 volt Lipo battery (7lbs)...my favorite battery

> crystalite 35amp analog controller.

Last minute i changed my mind of the dual motor drive when i got a great deal on a used Rohloff hub, and decided that any kind of derailer gear system is too hard too maintain and keep clean. THe Rohloff hub was literally invented on the beaches, after some german engineer had his bikes sand up while out on a ride with his wife on his honeymoon. Also i dont want to risk 2 bmc's because at this point i think they are the weakest link in the equation.

The bike should be completed next week....
 
A dream come true...

The bike does everything i want to do so far....lets see if it holds up.

soft sand no problem...

30mph on the hardpack.

Hose off after riding to get the salt water off.

12 mile ride down the sand right from my house with dog.

3 sand rides so far. An absolute dream..even better than i ever expected riding down the beach. The fat tires make very minimal drag...the ride is soooo smooth...smoother than concrete actually. You cant even imagine peoples reaction as me and my dog and my bike go flying by. One thing is for sure i have not seen another single bike on the beach in all my rides...but i am making it look easy :)

48volt 10ah Battery and controller are in custom made frame bag with a custom mount built by Ilia at ebikessf. He actually built a heat sink for controller and battery so that i can ride with bag completely sealed.

Rohloff speed hub in back gives me flawless shifting and a easy to clean straight chainline. Rohloff guarantees that this hub wont break even riding in sand and saltwater.

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AWESOME RIDE!

I was wondering what you were doing w/ a snow bike in SF... lol SAND! Fantastic!

extremegreenmachine said:
48volt 10ah Battery and controller are in custom made frame bag with a custom mount built by Ilia at ebikessf. He actually built a heat sink for controller and battery so that i can ride with bag completely sealed.
Awesome bag. Love to see more photos. Nothing on their site about it. I can imagine quite a few customers of such a thing... :wink:
 
I am not exactly sure watt hours per mile.

But i know it is not too different than comparable bmc bikes without the big tires on a 48 volts 10ah charge. The tires are not that inefficient believe it or not. I would say you are losing no more than 10 percent efficiency to a bike with 2 inch wide road/mountain cross tires.

On pavement at 25mph i have noticed the bike doesnt corner very well...but corners good enough not to be out of control.
 
I missed the post that you got her up and running. Absolutely great bike. I bet you now know the tide schedule without even having to check, so you can get out there when it's approaching low tide. It would be tough to find a more peaceful feeling than riding the hardpack sand on an ebike at low tide with a nice shallow sloped beach like that. My favorite place is absolutely perfect, with an uninterrupted stretch of over 10 miles, virtually no people, and almost nothing in the way of rocks and other stuff to dodge. I barely have to pay attention, and the riding surface is smoother than any road... actually better due to the lack of tire noise. I haven't been down to the beach lately, so thanks for the reminder. 8)
 
John,

No i am not good enough to have a feeling for tide charts :oops: actually have a bookmark to the SF tide schedules that i look at each day:

http://wolfweb.unr.edu/homepage/edc/tides/2011/sfgg_fr11.html

They change by an hour each day...so it determined what time and when i can ride.

Yesterday for the first time i ignored the tide schedule and just went out on a ride at sunset time. We had a summer like spring day so there were literally thousands on the beach. I figured i would ride until tide wouldnt let me ride anymore then come back at night when the crowds had dissipated, and then partake in some bonfires since i had a six pack of beer on my front rack i figured i could widdle my way in and share a campfire.

Anyway the tide was coming in instead of going out...and it ends up making a big difference because a lot of the time i was having to ride on the rough softpack to avoid getting wet in incoming waves. Until last night i always considered riding at low tide at just a means to get further down the beach (i can go up to 12 miles at low tide, and 5 miles at high because of unpassable obstacles. But now i know when you ride at low tide you have this super wide damp smooth stretch you can ride on. So when riding when the tide is coming in, you have to ride really close to the water line and the bike gets drenched in salt water...somthing i try to avoid since steel frame is already showing signs of rust.

Despite the "rough ride" I ended up having another great memorable ride...my dog befriended a group of dogs coming from a people group surrounding this huge bonfire, and i was able to hang out with them enjoying there fire for a few hours past nightfall. Riding home in clear sky moonlighted beach was an undescribable dream.
 
Nicely done on the sand bike. I often spout that for dirt riding you need RWD. But that is for dirt that is steep really. Nothing wrong with the idea of a FWD beach bike, where the grades are not steep once on the beach. You do have pedal RWD too, so really it is an AWD bike when it needs to be. It's when the grade steepens that the weight shifts so much, and front motors start really slipping. Some slip is fine, and just part of the fun.

Big tires rock in the sand, I run a 2.5 rear tire on my dirt ebike and it really helps. My methods supplied Rear 2812 motor just arrived, so look for a sand riding review of it in about 30 days. Right now I have a street race on the agenda so dirt stuff is on hold. I'm hoping the 2812 will really grind along nice in the deep stuff in the dry washes here. the Rear 2810 I have now is pretty nice, but once the rim is buried, it struggles.
 
dogman said:
Nicely done on the sand bike. I often spout that for dirt riding you need RWD. But that is for dirt that is steep really. Nothing wrong with the idea of a FWD beach bike, where the grades are not steep once on the beach. You do have pedal RWD too, so really it is an AWD bike when it needs to be. It's when the grade steepens that the weight shifts so much, and front motors start really slipping. Some slip is fine, and just part of the fun.

The biggest idea behind the front wheel drive is just so we could run the rohloff in the rear. I got a deal on this rohloff and couldnt resist...now that i have run the rohloff i am really stuck on the idea of ighs. The big thick sand tires help for climbing with front wheel drive, but there is still slippage when climbing even on dirt trails and force you to really get on the pedals, but i need to pedal more anyway. I like riding the bike like a regular bike and using the front hub when i need it and to go fast. The rohloff really makes it a joy to pedal. i have this thing against jankiness...and definitely deraillers no matter how sweet and expensive make a bike rickety comprared to a igh drive. And on the sand an igh is a must-have unless you are into cleaning and maintenance after every ride. SO right now i either have to go with a front wheel drive, or a expensive mid drive system to run the rohloff. I am thinking of doing an awd sand bike with 2 hub motors but my fear is i will rarely pedal that bike because of gearing issues (and probably will never need to)
 
Yeah, for the beach it totally makes sense the no derailur shifting and front drive. People that can't handle a tire slipping a bit front or rear need to just pedal. When I talk about rear is best, I'm talking about a hill you can hardly stand upright on it's so steep. Front wheel drive powerslides in sand are just as fun as rear ones.

My dry sand doesn't bother the derailur much, using dry lubes. Really dry sand, last rain was in September or so. Doesn't stick much to the chain uless your use oil.
 
Just whatever they stock in wallmart. White lightning is the name of the stuff I have now. Not like I use it much, on my dirt bikes, pedaling is not done much.
 
Try DuPont Teflon Multi-Use Lubricant, you'll find it at chain saws dealers. Once you try it on a bike chain, you'll never use anything else.
 
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