Matt Gruber
1 MW
That is the single most surprising comment by the Judge!
Mongoose Electric Bicycle with pedals?
In sidebar Judge says it:
"NEEDS A TAG"
Mongoose Electric Bicycle with pedals?
In sidebar Judge says it:
"NEEDS A TAG"
ELECTRIC BIKE WITH PEDALS IS A MOPED-says FL Judge!
- Thread starter Matt Gruber
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Matt Gruber
1 MW
SIGN UP ON THIS TOPIC
if you are willing to write a letter.
if you are willing to write a letter.
mvadventure
1 kW
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I bleed for Matt and anyone who suffers vehicular discrimination, especially at the hand of the law. Since I bike just 25 or so miles north of Matt's location but in a different county, I made a copy of the Florida law re electric bicycles and keep in on the bike.
One of my regular routes takes me across a toll bridge (no toll for bicycles) and along a well patrolled county road and a occasional speed trap. The road is patrolled by police motorcycles and patrol cars as well as C.O.P.S. (Citizens on Patrol) vehicles. When I see one, whether I'm on a portion that has a bike path or not I try and remember to pedal. I'm not always successful in that regard but I set my cruise control at 20 MPH, which is the legal limit, and generally get a wave, at most, from the patrol vehicles.
My other regular routes are similar and my manner of operation is the same except for when I'm in a designated bicycle/pedestrian park when I keep the speed way down. I don't anticipate any problem, especially with a copy of the law with me at all times. Should I get hassled I will post it immediately.
Here is a link to the FL law: http://scooterteq.com/ebike_regs_florida.htm
Mike
One of my regular routes takes me across a toll bridge (no toll for bicycles) and along a well patrolled county road and a occasional speed trap. The road is patrolled by police motorcycles and patrol cars as well as C.O.P.S. (Citizens on Patrol) vehicles. When I see one, whether I'm on a portion that has a bike path or not I try and remember to pedal. I'm not always successful in that regard but I set my cruise control at 20 MPH, which is the legal limit, and generally get a wave, at most, from the patrol vehicles.
My other regular routes are similar and my manner of operation is the same except for when I'm in a designated bicycle/pedestrian park when I keep the speed way down. I don't anticipate any problem, especially with a copy of the law with me at all times. Should I get hassled I will post it immediately.
Here is a link to the FL law: http://scooterteq.com/ebike_regs_florida.htm
Mike
Matt Gruber
1 MW
The Judge said something about helping me get the e-bike law into chapter 320. His court doesn't apply chapter 316.
If you want to go thru life pretending to pedal whenever u see a cop, please don't respond here. I need letter writers.
I also have a rough plan to lobby for a green e-bike promotional tag. A 1 time modest fee like $20 for a lifetime tag that would benefit an environmental program. Then when cars pass, they can say HEY, THAT'S AN E-BIKE, MAYBE I'LL GET ONE
FEDERAL LAW hr727 prohibits states from REQUIRING a tag. This promo tag is OPTIONAL, so it doesn't violate federal law
If you want to go thru life pretending to pedal whenever u see a cop, please don't respond here. I need letter writers.
I also have a rough plan to lobby for a green e-bike promotional tag. A 1 time modest fee like $20 for a lifetime tag that would benefit an environmental program. Then when cars pass, they can say HEY, THAT'S AN E-BIKE, MAYBE I'LL GET ONE
FEDERAL LAW hr727 prohibits states from REQUIRING a tag. This promo tag is OPTIONAL, so it doesn't violate federal law
CGameProgrammer
10 kW
The judge is correct; Florida law doesn't allow e-bikes to be considered bicycles. He can't make up his own laws, you know. And a moped is a motorized pedal-powered bike so it makes sense.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
might not be too hard to correct the misprint.
"316.003 Definitions. The following words and phrases, when used in THIS CHAPTER"....
change to .....This chapter and chapter 320.
FL is in violation of HR727 and MUST correct this (someday)
anybody else understand this problem?
All I am asking is for e-bikers living on EARTH to write, stating how they would like to vacation in FL but won't until they can ride without fear of citation/arrest.
Is this too scary? :lol:
"316.003 Definitions. The following words and phrases, when used in THIS CHAPTER"....
change to .....This chapter and chapter 320.
FL is in violation of HR727 and MUST correct this (someday)
anybody else understand this problem?
All I am asking is for e-bikers living on EARTH to write, stating how they would like to vacation in FL but won't until they can ride without fear of citation/arrest.
Is this too scary? :lol:
safe
1 GW
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- 5,681
Missouri is very easy on ebikes. You can ride with or without pedals and go all the way up to three horsepower if you like. The only weird thing is that they don't want you to use a clutch... which seems to be a hangover from the gas powered scooter laws.
Rassy
1 MW
Matt, I think Florida needs to re-work their entire law. The part that caught my eye earlier was the seat height. My recumbent trike seat is under 20 inches high, but it is still higher then the drivers seat on my Honda Civic.
safe
1 GW
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- 5,681
A new US law states that electric bicycles with fully functioning pedals, no more than 750 watts of motor power output, and a top speed of 20 mph on motor power only, are to be treated as "bicycles", and are not subject to motorized vehicle laws.
The US Senate has recently passed bill SR1156 which defines a clear legal definition of what an electric bicycle is in the USA.
This is now a new law (H.R. 727), which has been signed by the president, and gives the Consumer Product Safety Commission the responsibility for governing the safety of new production model electric bicycles, and will define a bicycle that has pedals capable of propeling the bicycle, an electric motor of no more than 750 watts, and a top speed with motor power only of 20 mph as a "bicycle".
Electric bicycles that fall under this category are not required to be registered or licenced, and no drivers license is required to drive them. They are subject to all the rules of the road, and additional laws governing the operation and safety of electric bicycles may be extended by state or local governments. This new law offers the freedom of being able to use an electric bicycle on public roads and bike trails to people in every state.
The real question becomes whether the new law will replace the old ones or if the old laws (like in Florida) will exist in parallel with the new one and act as an addition to it. I'd hope the the "intent" of the new law is that all the states will gradually come into conformance and everyone ends up with the same laws, but that takes time...
The US Senate has recently passed bill SR1156 which defines a clear legal definition of what an electric bicycle is in the USA.
This is now a new law (H.R. 727), which has been signed by the president, and gives the Consumer Product Safety Commission the responsibility for governing the safety of new production model electric bicycles, and will define a bicycle that has pedals capable of propeling the bicycle, an electric motor of no more than 750 watts, and a top speed with motor power only of 20 mph as a "bicycle".
Electric bicycles that fall under this category are not required to be registered or licenced, and no drivers license is required to drive them. They are subject to all the rules of the road, and additional laws governing the operation and safety of electric bicycles may be extended by state or local governments. This new law offers the freedom of being able to use an electric bicycle on public roads and bike trails to people in every state.
The real question becomes whether the new law will replace the old ones or if the old laws (like in Florida) will exist in parallel with the new one and act as an addition to it. I'd hope the the "intent" of the new law is that all the states will gradually come into conformance and everyone ends up with the same laws, but that takes time...
That was a casual comment by a Judge, not a ruling. It means nothing other than the Judge may not be familiar with the Statute in regards to the subject. Not unusual when a ruling isn't in order.
HR727 signed into law in late 2002 resulting in the amendment of the Code of Federal regulations Title 16 Section 1512.2 (a)(2) defines an ebike or “power on demandâ€￾ bicycle equipped with a motor of less than 750 watts, a top assisted speed of less than 20 mph and functional pedals as a “bicycleâ€￾.
The CFR also states that powered two wheelers that have larger motors, higher speeds or no pedals are allowed – as motorcycles.
As I recall, the minimum seat height restriction for a bicycle in FS 316.003 was in response to recumbent type bicycles and what some believed to be the inherent difficulty of visibility from a motor vehicle such as a car. It was felt they were excessively unsafe among regular vehicle traffic. I've been told some states require such bicycles to be equipped with a flag but I don't believe that exception exists in Florida. Technically, if the highest adjusted position on a recumbent (or any bicycle for that matter) isn't at least 25", it unlawful to operate it on any public roadway in Florida. Not that I agree with it but thats the background I believe on why that language exists and I've been told there are similar minimum seat height restrictions in some other States as well though it may not be routinely enforced.
Matt, have you tried writing a letter to the Florida Attorney General to try and get clarification on the Statue? He could potentially release an official opinion which would help you (to try and amed the Statutes or even in court) if that opinion favored your thoughts. I've always gotten very informative and thorough responses when I've made an inquiry to the office.
TylerDurden
100 GW
It is common for laws to be slow in adapting to the rapid changes in technology.
States will take time to develop an e-bike class of vehicle. Until then, ebikes will get lumped-in with scooters, mopeds, motorcycles and whatever odd association the lawmakers can understand. Don't expect any elected official to try something new, unless it means votes or $$$.
My sister lives in Ohio, where any motorized bicycle is a moped or a mototcycle; period.
Scooters on the street are considered a serious issue, to the extent that many states are putting links to the state scooter policy on DMV/BMV homepages. They really want kids out of the roadways with scooters. A scooter must have all the trimmings for road-use and the operator needs a motorcycle endorsement in some states.
To repeat earlier comments, HR727 is for the regulation of sales of bikes, not for the classifications in ownership/operation of ebikes:
1 . [106th] To amend the Consumer Products Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Reported in House)[H.R.2592.RH ]
2 . [106th] To amend the Consumer Products Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Engrossed as Agreed to or Passed by House)[H.R.2592.EH ]
3 . [107th] To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Referred to Senate Committee after being Received from House)[H.R.727.RFS ]
4 . [107th] To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Engrossed as Agreed to or Passed by House)[H.R.727.EH ]
5 . [107th] To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)[H.R.727.ENR ]
6 . [107th] To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Introduced in House)[H.R.727.IH ]
7 . [107th] To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Reported in House)[H.R.727.RH ]
8 . [107th] To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Introduced in Senate)[S.1156.IS ]
9 . [106th] To amend the Consumer Products Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Introduced in House)[H.R.2592.IH ]
H.R.727
One Hundred Seventh Congress
of the
United States of America
AT THE SECOND SESSION
Begun and held at the City of Washington on Wednesday,
the twenty-third day of January, two thousand and two
An Act
To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY ACT.
The Consumer Product Safety Act (15 U.S.C. 2051 et seq.) is amended by adding at the end the following:
`LOW-SPEED ELECTRIC BICYCLES
`SEC. 38. (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products within the meaning of section 3(a)(1) and shall be subject to the Commission regulations published at section 1500.18(a)(12) and part 1512 of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations.
`(b) For the purpose of this section, the term `low-speed electric bicycle' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.
`(c) To further protect the safety of consumers who ride low-speed electric bicycles, the Commission may promulgate new or amended requirements applicable to such vehicles as necessary and appropriate.
`(d) This section shall supersede any State law or requirement with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law or requirements referred to in subsection (a).'.
SEC. 2. MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS.
For purposes of motor vehicle safety standards issued and enforced pursuant to chapter 301 of title 49, United States Code, a low-speed electric bicycle (as defined in section 38(b) of the Consumer Product Safety Act) shall not be considered a motor vehicle as defined by section 30102(6) of title 49, United States Code.
That said, "States' Rights" will include the authority of any state to regulate more stringently than federal law.
States will take time to develop an e-bike class of vehicle. Until then, ebikes will get lumped-in with scooters, mopeds, motorcycles and whatever odd association the lawmakers can understand. Don't expect any elected official to try something new, unless it means votes or $$$.
My sister lives in Ohio, where any motorized bicycle is a moped or a mototcycle; period.
Scooters on the street are considered a serious issue, to the extent that many states are putting links to the state scooter policy on DMV/BMV homepages. They really want kids out of the roadways with scooters. A scooter must have all the trimmings for road-use and the operator needs a motorcycle endorsement in some states.
To repeat earlier comments, HR727 is for the regulation of sales of bikes, not for the classifications in ownership/operation of ebikes:
1 . [106th] To amend the Consumer Products Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Reported in House)[H.R.2592.RH ]
2 . [106th] To amend the Consumer Products Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Engrossed as Agreed to or Passed by House)[H.R.2592.EH ]
3 . [107th] To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Referred to Senate Committee after being Received from House)[H.R.727.RFS ]
4 . [107th] To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Engrossed as Agreed to or Passed by House)[H.R.727.EH ]
5 . [107th] To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)[H.R.727.ENR ]
6 . [107th] To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Introduced in House)[H.R.727.IH ]
7 . [107th] To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Reported in House)[H.R.727.RH ]
8 . [107th] To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Introduced in Senate)[S.1156.IS ]
9 . [106th] To amend the Consumer Products Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act. (Introduced in House)[H.R.2592.IH ]
H.R.727
One Hundred Seventh Congress
of the
United States of America
AT THE SECOND SESSION
Begun and held at the City of Washington on Wednesday,
the twenty-third day of January, two thousand and two
An Act
To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY ACT.
The Consumer Product Safety Act (15 U.S.C. 2051 et seq.) is amended by adding at the end the following:
`LOW-SPEED ELECTRIC BICYCLES
`SEC. 38. (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products within the meaning of section 3(a)(1) and shall be subject to the Commission regulations published at section 1500.18(a)(12) and part 1512 of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations.
`(b) For the purpose of this section, the term `low-speed electric bicycle' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.
`(c) To further protect the safety of consumers who ride low-speed electric bicycles, the Commission may promulgate new or amended requirements applicable to such vehicles as necessary and appropriate.
`(d) This section shall supersede any State law or requirement with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law or requirements referred to in subsection (a).'.
SEC. 2. MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS.
For purposes of motor vehicle safety standards issued and enforced pursuant to chapter 301 of title 49, United States Code, a low-speed electric bicycle (as defined in section 38(b) of the Consumer Product Safety Act) shall not be considered a motor vehicle as defined by section 30102(6) of title 49, United States Code.
That said, "States' Rights" will include the authority of any state to regulate more stringently than federal law.
safe
1 GW
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2006
- Messages
- 5,681
TylerDurden said:
You know this is the first time I noticed... really thought about... what they had in mind with the 'low-speed electric bicycle' definition. Here I am with my projects figuring out ways to design a bike to withstand the forces of HIGH SPEED and then turn around and sell such a product so that it's crippled enough to slide under the "low speed" rules. The electric motor is so easy to limit (all you need to do is lower the gearing) and you have a bike that cannot exceed it's no load limit which gets set at 20 mph. While at the point of sale the gearing limits the bike to 20 mph, all you need to do is change the gearing (or add a multispeed hub) afterwards and you can double the top speed. So in the future I'm sure I'll run up against the concept of just what "low speed" is supposed to mean...
Is is too much of a violation of principle to create a bike that can actually go fast and yet sell it under rules that says it must go slow? Will a bike with Road Racer styling get banned simply because it's LOOKS violate the law even if at the point of sale it's technically legal?Perhaps a violation of principal but not a violation of the law. With a manufactured product, liability will likely be a concern and whomever provides your liability insurance might have more to say about it. A maximum power specification would likely limit just how much a machine could exceed the maximum speed irregardless of gearing. Sure, it can be done, but would it be enough to cause worry? If the maximum power allowed was 750 watts, what is the practical maximum speed with optimal gearing? Would be be far beyond 20mph if that were the maximum allowable speed?safe said:
Style will not cause a problem with the law as long as the technical aspects are within the legal specifications. For example, if a 25" minimum seat height were in place, the style would have to accommodate that to be legal.safe said:
safe
1 GW
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- Dec 22, 2006
- Messages
- 5,681
v_tach said:
Speed is almost entirely a matter of aerodynamics. If you went to the extreme of a completely aerodynamic bike like the type that they set human powered speed records with your top speed is right around 80 mph.
http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/whpsc2004/speedchallenge-2004.htm
...if you allow 750 watts then you can get to at least 50 mph with not too much effort. I've been able to do 40 mph with a 750 watt bike very easily already (see my bike photo up to your left) and that's while carrying 86 lbs of lead acid batteries and big fat tires and (still) no fairing.
My next bike will (hopefully) get me into the "50 mph Club" for flat land speed. (I can go 50 mph now, but it's on a downhill stretch of road) So if 750 watts is "legal" then it's pretty easy to get above 40 mph... (most humans can't hold more than about 400 watts for more than 5 minutes, so 750 watts is like the power of two humans)This is all assuming you have gears. With gears you can expand your "extremes" so that on one extreme you can climb a steep hill and on another you can hit your top speed. With the more simple hub motors you are tied to your motor directly and so your range is more limited. Research suggests that in order to get the same top speed with a hub motor you need roughly double the power. So if the power is "capped" at 750 watts it's the gears that open the door to the top speed. That's why you could easily sell a 750 watt bike as a one speed and it's limited gearing would only get you to 20 mph. But then add the gears to it and all of a sudden you are pushing 50 mph. That's the "core concept" that I'm involved in...
I meant with a practical consumer level product.
Take the fairings away or any of it that would get in the way of hand signaling and putting one's feet to the ground, include a minimum seat height of 25", and a comfortable and practical rider position, then what do you think is a realistic top speed with 750 watts?
Take the fairings away or any of it that would get in the way of hand signaling and putting one's feet to the ground, include a minimum seat height of 25", and a comfortable and practical rider position, then what do you think is a realistic top speed with 750 watts?
safe
1 GW
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2006
- Messages
- 5,681
v_tach said:
This is the basic idea I had, but rather than weighing 300 lbs that it would weigh 80 lbs. The aerodynamics of a "Road Racer" will take a 750 watt bike to about 50 mph. (at the minimum I've already made it to 40 mph without the fairing and having the bike weigh 140 lbs)
A 750 watt "Road Racer" bike can go 50 mph "realistically*", but the law restricts the top speed to 20 mph. It's this difference that I'm looking to exploit. A mountain bike is so bad aerodynamically that it can't go faster than about 30mph unless you pump massive horsepower into it.
But getting back to the legal point... the law sets two standards that are in a sense unrelated. 750 watts is a lot more than it takes to get to 20 mph on the flat. You could have picked 500 watts (Canada) or even 250 watts like Europe has done as the standard to get you to 20 mph.
We're really lucky to have a law essentially "cast in stone" that protects the future for some awesome bikes. American ebikes will kick the ass of the European ebikes for the near future... 8)
* The law deals with a certain "power rating" which is often different than the "peak power". A 750 watt rated motor can often pump out 1000 watts at peak. You might try "Lowracer with streamlining tailbox" and 1000 watts of power because that's roughly the same aerodynamics as a "Road Racer" style bike.
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
The GPR is a good design to copy. It works well.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
to clarify:
the judge ON THE RECORD:
"if it looks like a motorcycle it IS a motorcycle."
So there i was thinking, if my mbike is a motorcycle, the Weiner Mobile is a real hot dog! So i better try to cut a deal, which i did.
v-tach
good idea on letter!
ask for clarification
on 316>320 definition
the judge ON THE RECORD:
"if it looks like a motorcycle it IS a motorcycle."
So there i was thinking, if my mbike is a motorcycle, the Weiner Mobile is a real hot dog! So i better try to cut a deal, which i did.
v-tach
good idea on letter!
ask for clarification
on 316>320 definition
safe
1 GW
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2006
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- 5,681
v_tach said:
Well, you won't have to wait too long... the technology is available already and it's just a matter of creating the product. Obviously the bike has to be sold so as to qualify under the 20 mph top speed rule. So the bike will have to be sold "crippled" in some form. The easiest way to cripple the bike is to make it a one speed and gear it so low that it can't go faster than 20 mph. The moment a buyer gets the bike home they can then change the gearing by simply increasing the gear ratio so that they could get to about 30 mph, but if you really want to expand your range you would need to switch to multispeed gearing so that you can span the range of hillclimbs and top speed. You could also go down the voltage increasing path which can also get you to more power and top end speed.
The "bottom line" is that a stock bike sold out of a bike shop will always be limited to 20 mph. So if that's your question, then that's more or less your answer. A 50 mph bike will always require aftermarket products to "trick out" the bike.Matt Gruber
1 MW
thanks! i bet he gets lots of letters from defendants. :lol:v_tach said:
do you know the address?
Office of Attorney General
State of Florida
The Capitol PL-01
Tallahassee, FL 32399-1050
ag.mccollum@myfloridalegal.com
Main office telephone numbers:
Switchboard: 850-414-3300
SunCom: 994-3300
Citizens Services: 850-414-3990
Florida Relay/TDD: 800-955-8771
Florida Toll Free: 1-866-966-7226
Fax: 850-410-1630
SunCom Fax: 210-1630
State of Florida
The Capitol PL-01
Tallahassee, FL 32399-1050
ag.mccollum@myfloridalegal.com
Main office telephone numbers:
Switchboard: 850-414-3300
SunCom: 994-3300
Citizens Services: 850-414-3990
Florida Relay/TDD: 800-955-8771
Florida Toll Free: 1-866-966-7226
Fax: 850-410-1630
SunCom Fax: 210-1630
primalfuture
100 µW
As everyone has pointed out, the 20mph and 750w restrictions really make no sense. Why 20mph motor assisted power when people can get their bikes to 30+ without a motor? There's no limitation on the capability of a car/motorcycle's motor as far as how powerful they are or how fast they are capable of propelling a vehicle. We just have speed limits for cars and motorcycles. Given the variances that weight and aerodynamics can create, the 750w rule doesn't make much sense either.
What would make sense for me is simply a lower speed limit for vehicles that don't meet minimum safety requirements such as crash protection and emergency avoidance. Let 'em have as much power as they want. As far as sidewalks and bike/pedestrian paths, provide for speed and size requirements.
What would make sense for me is simply a lower speed limit for vehicles that don't meet minimum safety requirements such as crash protection and emergency avoidance. Let 'em have as much power as they want. As far as sidewalks and bike/pedestrian paths, provide for speed and size requirements.
xyster
10 MW
primalfuture said:
I basically agree. And shift focus to enforcement against behaviors reckless or dangerous to others rather than often arbitrary, innovation-retarding technical restrictions easily circumvented anyway. Another Oregonian on board. Woohoo!
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