Doesn't this sound like what the Japanese manufacturers are doing with regards to the horsepower limits in their country? I think they are limited to 280bhp or something like that but produce cars (like the Nissan Skyline and Toyota Supra) that can very easily be tuned to produce in excess of 500bhp with a few basic mods.
Safe,
The new drain brain, has a speed limiting setting.
So the sellers/ manufacturers intention is to provide distance, not power .
If the buyer wants to alter the manufactures settings, for higher speed then the legal onus is on buyer not seller.
I am not a lawyer something like that with a sticker on the bike stating the legal issues, warranty voids, etc etc would save the manufacturer from liability?
Safe,
The new drain brain, has a speed limiting setting.
So the sellers/ manufacturers intention is to provide distance, not power .
If the buyer wants to alter the manufactures settings, for higher speed then the legal onus is on buyer not seller.
I am not a lawyer something like that with a sticker on the bike stating the legal issues, warranty voids, etc etc would save the manufacturer from liability?
Something like the DrainBrain is user programmable so that would be a very superficial attempt at obeying the law. Maybe it might work in some places, but having physical limitations (like not selling a bike with a multispeed hub) is a more forceful restriction. The question becomes whether the product needs to be modified (and how) in order to exceed the 20 mph speed limit.
It's a thought that's for sure...
One advantage of the fixed-hub-to-multispeed-hub-upgrade is that the initial bike is cheaper. The initial bike just has a simple freewheel on the rear. The aftermarket addition is the multispeed hub which adds at least $150 on top of the initial cost. Some people might buy the bike and their parents say:
"Sorry Johnny... you can't get the multispeed hub for your bike until you turn 14. No, no, no... I'm not going to let you... no.... no... hey look do you want me to deduct from your allowance?... etc..."
The elegance of the lowest common denominator: Resellers can confidently sell more units if the ebikes have no age/power/speed concerns.
Hence, the CPSC classification that below the significantly low power/speed threshold, ebikes are NOT motor vehicles, but rather, assisted bicycles.
Once an ebike exceeds the standards of ebike classification, it gets closer to the definition of motor-vehicle and a reseller may be more open to motor vehicle legal issues, not the least of which may be: are they a registered motor-vehicle dealer?
i.e. Seen any motorcycles/mopeds/ATVs at Target or Wallyworld? Nope... too much state-to-state hassle and legal exposure.
Small scooters are sold at retailers as "ride-on-toys", for use on private property. (Matt's Mbike looks enough like an ebike to get him off the hook... this time.)
"Sorry Johnny... you can't get the multispeed hub for your bike until you turn 14. No, no, no... I'm not going to let you... no.... no... hey look do you want me to deduct from your allowance?... etc..."
1st the cops. then the SA, the judge, and then the Attorney General :lol:
TD
i beat the rap, no jail or $$$$, but, in FL a motorcycle
1. has 2 or 3 wheels
2. motor
3. seat or saddle.
That's IT!
add pedals? it's a Moped.
So i'm still subject to jail/fine if i ride my ev's.
I have to agree.
I said at the beginning, going in front of a judge at any time is a crap shoot.
I've seen it go both ways where you can have everything on your side & still lose if the judge got up on the wrong side of the bed and/or you give him attitude.
Matt, you got lucky & don't believe otherwise.
You rolled the dice & came up with a sympathetic judge on a particularly good day.
Hence, the CPSC classification that below the significantly low power/speed threshold, ebikes are NOT motor vehicles, but rather, assisted bicycles.
Once an ebike exceeds the standards of ebike classification, it gets closer to the definition of motor-vehicle and a reseller may be more open to motor vehicle legal issues...
There is a complete disconnect between power and speed in the law.
The new electric bike law (which applies everywhere in the United States and should override all state laws) has this high power limit (750 watts) coupled with a low speed limit. (20 mph) On the Tour De France yesterday they were commenting about how slow people were riding on this flat section and that at an average speed of 20 mph they were only using 200 watts of energy. At the end of the race they crank the speed up to 30+ mph and the power to 500 watts. So the most natural way to sell an electric bike in the United States is to give it the full power and then restrict it by gearing. The no load limit on a motor is a natural speed limiting mechanism. In order to exceed the natural no load speed limit you need to either/or:
1. Add more gears or increase the gearing.
2. Add more voltage.
...and the moment you do something like that then you've violated the sellers obligations and are on your own. From the sellers stantpoint they have sold a legal bike, if someone changes things afterwards then they are the criminal, not the seller.
The more aerodynamic the bike, the more the disconnect between power and speed widens...
TD
i beat the rap, no jail or $$$$, but, in FL a motorcycle
1. has 2 or 3 wheels
2. motor
3. seat or saddle.
That's IT!
add pedals? it's a Moped.
So i'm still subject to jail/fine if i ride my ev's.
It's time to lobby state legislators to add the ebike class to the bike laws. With 10M/yr bikes sold in China, huge markets in Europe and the US, there is some money to be made in the industry and states can wrap themselves in a green flag by helping it grow.
States' Rights supercede unless there is a federal interest in blanket control. Federal law cannot even set interstate highway speed limits.
safe said:
On the Tour De France yesterday they were commenting about how slow people were riding on this flat section and that at an average speed of 20 mph they were only using 200 watts of energy. At the end of the race they crank the speed up to 30+ mph and the power to 500 watts.
Steroid-stoked freaks. Typical riders cannot pedal 20mph for more than a few minutes, serious riders can pedal around 20mph for a few hours. 30mph is for human-frogs.
To paraphrase the CPSC standard:
An electric-motorized bike is NOT a motor-vehicle, provided it is slow enough, weak enough, has pedals and no more than three wheels. If it does not meet the standard, it SHOULD be classed as a motor-vehicle and sold as such.
Or in simpler terms: Is it more bike, or more motor-vehicle? If the ebike standard is set low enough (very close to bike), there should be no confusion.
1st: LUCK= opportunity+preparation.
i did my research, over 20 hrs.
#2. Judge was stubborn and so was the SA.
#3. it took 20-25 minutes to convince him. They fought me all the way, but he acknowledged a few of the solid points i made. Eventually there were enough points to cut a deal, not to win in his court. (maybe an appeals court)
Electric vehicles are the future. It is so obvious to me, I would think it is not even worth discussing why.
The laws will start to change soon, and probably they will be treated like all other vehicles, ie license, permits.
Shouldn't the object be to build an ebike that is fast and efficient (omg i sound like ....) battery technology is moving along nicely, so if a ebike could be designed more efficiently to extend range, through engineering, aerodynamics, etc.
Then just throw a brain drain on it comply with the laws. A Porshe is capable of 300 km/hr, and they are not responsible for liabilities.
xy
i don't feel lucky.
i said "i'll drive my 2 corvettes instead"
as part of the deal.
i feel victorious as i didn't hire a lawyer and had already decided, as i posted here, that i couldn't be convinced by anything they said, to "park my cars again"
Let the SA pedal her bike to work with no helper motor(and save the planet)
I'm wondering if a state's enforcement of a law such as the Florida law that's been presented would be considered invalid due to a conflict with federal law and thus being in violation of the supremacy clause of the U.S. Constitution. Such a challenge would be further strengthened if it were determined that the federal law's intent was to "occupy the entire field" of that body of law. If you find yourself confronted by a hard nosed SA who won't cut you any slack, it may be a challenge worth making.
I'm wondering if a state's enforcement of a law such as the Florida law that's been presented would be considered invalid due to a conflict with federal law...
I'm wondering if a state's enforcement of a law such as the Florida law that's been presented would be considered invalid due to a conflict with federal law and thus being in violation of the supremacy clause of the U.S. Constitution. Such a challenge would be further strengthened if it were determined that the federal law's intent was to "occupy the entire field" of that body of law.
Federal Law is supposed to override State Law. That's why the Federal Laws are suppose to be created "sparingly" so as to not get into peoples business without good reason. But in this case the overriding reason was to establish a nationwide standard for electric bikes which has been desperately needed. Obviously if the Federal Law doesn't override the State Law then it would have been pointless for them to have created it.
The only exception is that the local law can claim to be some sort of extension or that it defines it's own separate space. Somehow the local law would have to be able to claim that the electric bicycle is restricted above an beyond the Federal Law for some reason.
I think that what's really going on is that the State Laws are still on the books and they won't change anything until a challenge takes place.
There isn't one to my knowledge either -- but some people here, like Safe, are absolutely solidified in their belief that the law defining an ebike for the Consumer Products Safety Commission applies generally. There's been much discussion about this law's general inapplicability to our interests in other forums.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws "In the United States of America, Congress has defined a low-speed electric bicycle as any bicycle or tricycle with fully operable pedals, an electric motor not exceeding 750 W of power and a top motor-powered speed not in excess of 20 miles per hour (equivalent to the Canadian 32 km/h). An electric bike or trike that meets these limitations is regarded as a bicycle [8] by Public Law 107-319.[9] This Law defines electric bicycles only for the purpose of Consumer Product Safety and does not allow for their use on roads. It is a safety criteria that manufacturers should use in building electric bicycles, which helps protect manufacturers from the threat of lawsuits from within states that attempt to legislate more stringent safety requirements."
Unfortunately, I think you're right. I didn't realize the provisions being cited were CPRC. What's amusing to me is that bicycles that don't meet 750W, 20mph limitations are considered "hazardous substances."
in FL it is 316.003-2
it ends NO person under the age of 16 may operate or ride upon a motorized bicycle"
This implies it CAN be operated by those over 16. If they mean on private property they should say that.
It is a scam law to get federal funds for bike paths(put people to work-construction only)[/b]
.
the US Congress required that states that get $$$$$ for bike paths ALLOW e-bikes on streets AND paths. I don't have a printer, but i did read about it, and if i appealed my case, you can bet that i'd use it in court. Not sure if it a law or a quid pro quo
after group swearing in by the judge, a man in a suit asked for Q's.
So i asked him where is SA M. Clark?
he asks why?
i said i sent her a letter and expect the charge to be dismissed or dropped.
So he goes and gets her.
Then i ask what's going on?
He says she is on the phone with Tallahassee.
Then he comes over later.
Do u have a lawyer?
I said the charge is so ridiculous i don't need one. Then he says he is the public defender.
I said i want a jury trial if this isn't dropped.{can't get one]
So who did she call?
1. Add more gears or increase the gearing.
