ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION DELTA /WYE and SERIE/PAPALLEL stator

[methods]

From my own experience I would recommend that anyone who tries this be very conservative.
Just opening one phase line on my xlyte 20A sensorless sent me over the bars at 25mph.
My guess would be that it depends on how the sensorless controller is implemented. Maybe it would work with an RC controller
Dont bother trying it with an analog xlyte....

-methods

 

[j3tch1u]

Just opening one phase line on my xlyte 20A sensorless sent me over the bars at 25mph.

that's good to know. i hope you weren't hurt

 

[methods]

I wear a full face helmet, Gloves, and an armored motorcycle jacket.

"Test Dummy"

-methods

 

[johnrobholmes]

has anyone tried delta/wye switching on a sensorless esc? would the sudden back emf cause the esc to lose sync or rearm due to momentary signal loss with the motor?

Ive been doing it with my HV110 for the past week or two. I never shift under load, and everything is cool. I have a nice hill climbing mode where the controller can run nice and cool at 100% duty cycle and no worries about the motor overheating. Then I have my fast flats and downhill mode that I stay in 90% of the time.


This is with a Bafang, so when I switch the motor is not spinning. I will be lacing up a 9C soon and give it a shot too.

 

[steveo]

Doc do the x5 already!!! lol

I'm waiting for your write up

-steveo

 

[caleb7777]

Is the +5V on the throttle line beefy enough to be used for the 5v reed relay? or would it affect the throttle as it pulled power. In parallel it would be fine right?


Brain fart!!
Is there any way to make small circuit so that when the reed relay asked for power it cut the throttle for a few milliseconds? I just realized that if the throttle power fed the reed relay to control delta switch first there must be a way to wire it so that when relay comes on/off throttle power is interrupted for ~50ms. This would allow auto shifting and never under load, except maybe regen if you were going down a hill or something.

 

[karma]

i forgot to post my results on more testing. if you have a pack voltage 70v and up you can use a 120v relay as well. even after a long ride the relay still trips. for anyone without a 12v source :wink:

 

[caleb7777]

I started a thread for help on throttle interrupting circuit
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10209&start=0

 

[steveo]

Hey Everyone,

I picked up some 10amp @ 120vac relays today for free

I will be testing to see how my 5304 works at delta .. and also to understand the wiring of the relays ..


-steveo

 

[caleb7777]

where do you have each wire going?
what model number is that relay?

the wiring looks odd for a standard relay

 

[Doctorbass]

Here is what everybody need to clarely understand what to do to realize this mod!

:wink:

Doc

 

[tostino]

So what would happen if the phases shorted like you are worried about with 3x spdt relays? Is it going to damage the motor or controller? Would it cause the motor to electronically brake? If that is the case, would it matter with a geared motor?

 

[Doctorbass]

So what would happen if the phases shorted like you are worried about with 3x spdt relays? Is it going to damage the motor or controller? Would it cause the motor to electronically brake? If that is the case, would it matter with

a geared motor?

It would certainly never dammage the motor winding so a hub motor can not really be dammadged. but if it is geared, it will depend on the gear strengh...

for the controller, if two phase output are shorted together depending of your current limit and cables resistance, it wold have alot of chance to bow a phase output or two.

like i said the 3PDT is the best, the 2x 3PST (1x NO and 1x NC) is still nice and you could use a little delay between one that is releases and the other that is energized... and the third option, the most easy to do but the most risky is the 3 x SPDT relay.

That last option is risky because on all these 3 single relay, we can not garanty that they will energise or release at the exact same time... no one could hear the difference. maybe if someone have a scope, it could be easy to measure the time each single relay take to react and to make sure their release and energized time are matched...

BUT DONT WORRY.. If you just release the throttle while switching any of these 3 relay combinaisons, it should not be bad at all cause no current or very low current will travel thru the fets with throttle to zero.. so it would become like having a clutch... you release throttle , you "shift".. than you put back the throttle...

This great delta WYE solution MUST NOT BE STOPPED BY ANY RELAY AVAILLABILITY PROBLEM :wink:

Doc

Doc

 

[karma]

nice schematic doc :wink:

 

[karma]

steveo you may wana consider a leather jacket for your delta tests

geting skin graphed from your ass to your arms is no fun.

 

[tostino]

could you put a capacitor on the wires of the 2nd 3PST relay, so that when you flip the switch, it has to charge the cap up before energizing the coil. Will this cause any issues with down shifting from delta to wye though?

 

[Doctorbass]

could you put a capacitor on the wires of the 2nd 3PST relay, so that when you flip the switch, it has to charge the cap up before energizing the coil. Will this cause any issues with down shifting from delta to wye though?

That will help for adding a little delay.. but when going back to the previous mode it will still keep energized the relay while the first relay is becoming energized.. so both energized relay = short !

Doc

 

[tostino]

I thought that would be the case. So I guess a throttle interrupt circuit is the safest way to do things other than a 3pdt relay.

 

[steveo]

Hey everyone

I tried star/delta mode with x5304 motor tonight. However i am presently running into a problem runing in delta mode .... the motor has more resistance then normal in delta mode

here is the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ-bIFjYK_s

-steveo

 

[caleb7777]

is harder to turn by hand in delta also?
post the exact wiring schematic YOU used showing original wires from motor as well as wires you added and where each goes.

 

[steveo]

the only difference is it goes yellow green blue.. this was before i corrected the wiring with doctorbass... (red power poles are delta mode)

(the reverse colours leading to the controller are different because the controller requires different combination to run the motor as apposed to x-lite controller.

-steveo

 

[fechter]

If you're getting resistance in delta, then it means that one of the windings is reversed.

Each winding (yellow, blue, green) has two wires. Each phase pair has a polarity that must be observed. You could try reversing one pair at a time to see if you can find which one is reversed.

During switching, if the motor phase wires momentarily short (milliseconds), it should not damage anything other than possibly the relay contacts. If the controller wires momentarily short and the controller is giving output, it will most likely blow the controller.

What may really be needed is a sequencer that kills the throttle, opens all the contacts, closes the contacts in the new configuration, then restores the throttle. If you are using double throw relays, then the contacts will automatically open before closing. I think using multiple DT relays with the coils connected should work fine as far as timing goes.

 

[Achim]

3pdt would really be the safest to use, but a decent and cheap 30A+ switch is really hard to find for me! I haven't been as lucky as the doc
It would be great if anyone could post links once you find some more!

The next best I've found is a 4PDT switch 20 AMP @ 125 VAC on ebay...

That wouldn't be enough for a 72v setup, would it?

 

[caleb7777]

Back a few pages I posted a link.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9215&start=195#p154427

This will work for most people well. But if you are running 72v and have a lot of current you could do one per phase with terminals on each connected so that all contacts attached in parallel giving much more than 40 amps. But try one alone first.

 

[caleb7777]

What type and model relays are you using steveo?