ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION DELTA /WYE and SERIE/PAPALLEL stator
- Thread starter Doctorbass
- Start date
caleb7777
100 W
They should work well for you! :wink:
karma
10 kW
steveo this is my setup
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28wk-_sXJjQ&feature=channel_page
cheers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28wk-_sXJjQ&feature=channel_page
cheers
karma
10 kW
and the setup from controller to motor. not the sam controller or hubmotor hopfully you can make sence of it.
steveo
100 kW
karma said:
Hey
My motor works fine in star mode, When i switch to delta mode there is resistance when i turn the wheel by hand .. If i only leave 2 leads connected for the delt connections there is no reisistance soon as i add the 3rd wire the resistance is back .. regardless of if its the green yellow .. blue yellow .. etc... same result .. The proble lies between the relay and motor ..
fechter said:
Hey Fechter
I tried reversing the colours as you described and still did not fix the problem .. all phase wires are correct!
Is the winding in an x5 series motor far difference from a 9 continent motor? could this be the reason its not working?
-steveo
caleb7777
100 W
show us current wiring pics to relays and relay type and model
TylerDurden
100 GW
Doc's schematic shows the paired leads on the N/O terminals, the pix appear like the paired leads are on the COM terminals.
Doctorbass
100 GW
TylerDurden said:
The common terminal on the Steveo's relay is not the one on the middle as usuall.. the common is lower to the middle.. and the middle is the N-O.
Doc
methods
1 GW
I figured out how to add the throttle cut-out delay.
I am just gong to run all the wires up to my handle bars and when I reach 30mph I am going to pull out all the wires, switch them around, and plug them back in.
:|
-methods
I am just gong to run all the wires up to my handle bars and when I reach 30mph I am going to pull out all the wires, switch them around, and plug them back in.
:|
-methods
caleb7777
100 W
Have you seen the thread I started methods?
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10209&start=0
I am getting there. Which impresses me because I know nothing about electronics other than what a relay, diode, capacitor, and resistor is.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10209&start=0
I am getting there. Which impresses me because I know nothing about electronics other than what a relay, diode, capacitor, and resistor is.
methods
1 GW
I described a "one-shot" circuit in the thread linked above that should give you your throttle interrupt on upon switching in either direction.
For a visual look at the CA instructions where they show how the CA pulls down the throttle via a diode and a resistor.
In this case, Instead of the CA you would have a pair of active low "One-Shots" diode coupled together. Either one is capable of grounding out the throttle for time T on a 0-5V transition or a 5V-0 transition of your reed relay.
Basically you are just crow-baring the throttle to ground for a fixed period any time the 5V reed relay changes states.
I have not tried it but it should work
-methods
For a visual look at the CA instructions where they show how the CA pulls down the throttle via a diode and a resistor.
In this case, Instead of the CA you would have a pair of active low "One-Shots" diode coupled together. Either one is capable of grounding out the throttle for time T on a 0-5V transition or a 5V-0 transition of your reed relay.
Basically you are just crow-baring the throttle to ground for a fixed period any time the 5V reed relay changes states.
I have not tried it but it should work
-methods
steveo
100 kW
Comon peps lets stay on track lol .. x5 star delta!!! not working for me help!
Are the windings in the x5 different from a 9 continent motor? is this why it doesn't work?
-steveo
help!Are the windings in the x5 different from a 9 continent motor? is this why it doesn't work?
-steveo
karma
10 kW
no it should work, there somthing a miss. i have three different typs of motors all work in delta. no problem.
have you tested a different controller?
ran the relays on there own power supply? the x5 will draw more amp in delta maybe the relays are switching on and off with the drop in amps. maybe 120v relays dont work with larger motors.
when you pulled the star apart to add axtra phase wires. could there be a strand of wire tide into anothere phase? possible.
lots to go over :wink:
have you tested a different controller?
ran the relays on there own power supply? the x5 will draw more amp in delta maybe the relays are switching on and off with the drop in amps. maybe 120v relays dont work with larger motors.
when you pulled the star apart to add axtra phase wires. could there be a strand of wire tide into anothere phase? possible.
lots to go over :wink:
steveo said:Comon peps lets stay on track lol .. x5 star delta!!! not working for me
Are the windings in the x5 different from a 9 continent motor? is this why it doesn't work?
-steveo
Unless you shorted out something inside the motor, there should be a delta configuration that works.
DO NOT try running it with the controller if you still have resistance.
You have 6 wires coming out of the motor, Separate them and use an ohmmeter to verify the matching phase ends are properly marked (yellow goes to yellow, blue to blue, etc.)
For each pair, there is a + and - end (actually not really positive or negative, but a relative phasing). If any phase pair is reversed, you'll get resistance. This gives you 6 possible combinations. Try them all. Two of them should work.
j3tch1u
10 kW
caleb7777 said:
would having 2 or more of those 3pdt 40a relays in parallel cause a short if timing is off on any one of them? if so, then i'm thinking 2 x 3pst relays with control logic to ensure both are open before switching would be the safest bet. not sure if it's any easier to find high current 3pst relays either.
Doctorbass
100 GW
Steveo, What i really thing make sence:
read this :wink:
We concluded that your setup in Star work fine. but not the delta.
what make sense here is that in star, the 3 new wires that you added are always shorted together with the relay.
but suppose that when you seperated each little wires from the winding when you desoldered them to insulate each phase, you may had mixed some from one phase to the next.. all winding wires are the same color..
Please check again the continuity between two different phase color with all phase connector not connected to any relay or controller.
You should measure:
Y - G = infinite resistance
G - B = infinite resistance
B - Y = infinite resistance
Check,... double check... and check again!
Doc
read this :wink:
We concluded that your setup in Star work fine. but not the delta.
what make sense here is that in star, the 3 new wires that you added are always shorted together with the relay.
but suppose that when you seperated each little wires from the winding when you desoldered them to insulate each phase, you may had mixed some from one phase to the next.. all winding wires are the same color..
Please check again the continuity between two different phase color with all phase connector not connected to any relay or controller.
You should measure:
Y - G = infinite resistance
G - B = infinite resistance
B - Y = infinite resistance
Check,... double check... and check again!
Doc
steveo
100 kW
Hey Everyone,
I took some good photo when i did this to show that the little wire in the wrong phase on delt side is impossible .. there was even the heat wrap portion on the windings end on the delt side.. i posted these photos in docs other thread but here they are again..
Photos of my x5304 Star/delta motor with air cooling
My Motor opened before modding
Phase wire removed; I forgot to take a picture ... but i dremeled the shaft to fit the extra 3 phase wires .. probably added an extra 2mm
New Phase wires ( used the original crystalite teflon wire ); New Hall sensor wires ( I used cat 5 cable or eithernet cable wires) .. they are strong and very thin!!
Sidecover (wires side) 8 holes right on top of the windings (3/8 holes (8 of them)) .. 4 holes (3/8) near the bearing.
almost finished...
-steveo
I took some good photo when i did this to show that the little wire in the wrong phase on delt side is impossible .. there was even the heat wrap portion on the windings end on the delt side.. i posted these photos in docs other thread but here they are again..
Photos of my x5304 Star/delta motor with air cooling
My Motor opened before modding
Phase wire removed; I forgot to take a picture ... but i dremeled the shaft to fit the extra 3 phase wires .. probably added an extra 2mm
New Phase wires ( used the original crystalite teflon wire ); New Hall sensor wires ( I used cat 5 cable or eithernet cable wires) .. they are strong and very thin!!
Sidecover (wires side) 8 holes right on top of the windings (3/8 holes (8 of them)) .. 4 holes (3/8) near the bearing.
almost finished...
-steveo
steveo
100 kW
karma said:
-The controller is not the issue .. with the rely in delta there is resistance some resistance
at 60km/h 1.4amps in star mode.. in delta .. same speed .. 10 amps
-I'm running the relays at 24v which is what they are rated at ..
-Impossible.. i tested for shorts between each colour and everything is sound .. refer to the phots i posted above..
[
Hey fechter
-I reversed all ends like you advised .. and when i changed them i got a very strong resistance when i turn wheel by hand in delta mode ( i will re-test this for you tonight to double confirm.)
-I did verify that yellow is yellow .. blue is blue.. green is green as well
-steveo
Doctorbass
100 GW
Hello Steveo.. I received my rear 5303 on 20" rim from Mybad yesterday.
I finished to repair the ecrazyman 12 fets controller i had with the delta wye ( it blown when alot of hard start in delta :x few weeks ago)
now i just need to find this little spare crystalyte hall connecto i had in my stuff to be able to connect it to thay controller. ( i want to make it clean.. so i'll not just fast connect the white connectors with jumpers cause i could short easy something about hall sensor and i want to avoid that)
then i'll install the delta wires on that motor and will test...
I would just be disapointed if i could realize that ax X5 would not allow delta!!!
I'm confident... it MUST work!
Doc
I finished to repair the ecrazyman 12 fets controller i had with the delta wye ( it blown when alot of hard start in delta :x few weeks ago)
now i just need to find this little spare crystalyte hall connecto i had in my stuff to be able to connect it to thay controller. ( i want to make it clean.. so i'll not just fast connect the white connectors with jumpers cause i could short easy something about hall sensor and i want to avoid that)
then i'll install the delta wires on that motor and will test...
I would just be disapointed if i could realize that ax X5 would not allow delta!!!
I'm confident... it MUST work!
Doc
So you see what happens when one phase is reversed. It is a strong resistance. If the resistance is not strong, then you must have it phased properly. Do you feel resistance when turning the wheel by hand?
If you're only getting a higher than normal operating current, then that could mean the timing is off or the halls need to be reconfigured.
If you're only getting a higher than normal operating current, then that could mean the timing is off or the halls need to be reconfigured.
steveo
100 kW
fechter said:
Hey Fechter
Yes i do feel the slight resistance by hand when i spin it in delta mode only!!
I would like to advise that this happens with no controller connected just motor and relay only.
-steveo
Doctorbass
100 GW
Great effort Steveo, but this is still not finished.
It's time to call some external help!
let's ask Safe and Markcycle.
Markcycle already tried that with his X5 or X6 motor and he also had problems with the delta.. he said the controller cut and became hot. I guess it may be because of the high current if it's same as your case Steveo.
you can see that at the end of this page: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7718&hilit=delta&start=75
Now Safe could be a great resource for that.. i'll invite him to this thread too.
I still dont want to believe that this is only the 9 Continent that could work with delta and not crystalyte!!
I counted the number of winding coil on the 9C and i had counted 51.. now what is the number for the X5?
I think itMs time to examine how are made these two motor... that seems so differrent for the delta configuration!
Safe?.. Markcycle?
Doc
It's time to call some external help!
let's ask Safe and Markcycle.
Markcycle already tried that with his X5 or X6 motor and he also had problems with the delta.. he said the controller cut and became hot. I guess it may be because of the high current if it's same as your case Steveo.
you can see that at the end of this page: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7718&hilit=delta&start=75
Now Safe could be a great resource for that.. i'll invite him to this thread too.
I still dont want to believe that this is only the 9 Continent that could work with delta and not crystalyte!!
I counted the number of winding coil on the 9C and i had counted 51.. now what is the number for the X5?
I think itMs time to examine how are made these two motor... that seems so differrent for the delta configuration!
Safe?.. Markcycle?
Doc
johnrobholmes
10 MW
Safe isn't here anymore.
There is nothing keeping the X5 from running in delta mode, it is a 3 phase motor just like any other.
Is the resistance smooth or is it jumpy? Is it very slight, and is there any heat generated on the winds if you keep spinning the wheel?
Delta mode has recirculating currents, and on a stator so large it may be causing the drag you feel. Delta termination also induces an advanced timing effect, because of this recirculating current. it is probable that your timing is advanced too far in Delta mode, and the controller or the sensors will have to be modified. A hybrid controller would be the best for the job, as it would start out sensored (and Wye), then transition to sensorless mode and automatically account for the Delta timing advance when you switched over.
Are you using switches, or just a plug to change terminations?
There is nothing keeping the X5 from running in delta mode, it is a 3 phase motor just like any other.
Is the resistance smooth or is it jumpy? Is it very slight, and is there any heat generated on the winds if you keep spinning the wheel?
Delta mode has recirculating currents, and on a stator so large it may be causing the drag you feel. Delta termination also induces an advanced timing effect, because of this recirculating current. it is probable that your timing is advanced too far in Delta mode, and the controller or the sensors will have to be modified. A hybrid controller would be the best for the job, as it would start out sensored (and Wye), then transition to sensorless mode and automatically account for the Delta timing advance when you switched over.
Are you using switches, or just a plug to change terminations?
The X5 has overlapping windings, which may be contribuiting to the problem. I wouldn't expect the circulating currents to be high enough to feel drag, but depending on the magnet spacing, I can see how this might be possible. If that is the real problem, then there might not be any easy way to get around that.
When the wires are connected in delta, try breaking one of the 3 connection points and see if you notice a difference in the drag. A more scientific way to test would be to insert an ammeter between one of the connections and spin the wheel by hand. Measure AC amps.
Hall senor timing may be another issue. With a sensorless controller, it will automatically compensate, but with hall sensors the timing may shift between delta and wye. This also depends on the motor configuration. I'm really not sure if this is an issue or not.
When the wires are connected in delta, try breaking one of the 3 connection points and see if you notice a difference in the drag. A more scientific way to test would be to insert an ammeter between one of the connections and spin the wheel by hand. Measure AC amps.
Hall senor timing may be another issue. With a sensorless controller, it will automatically compensate, but with hall sensors the timing may shift between delta and wye. This also depends on the motor configuration. I'm really not sure if this is an issue or not.
Doctorbass
100 GW
fechter said:
I agree, that the overlapping is one caracteristic that is different than the 9C motor... 9C motor work... X5 still not.. :?
About breaking one connection point, when i talked with Steveo 2 days ago, and we tried that. When we broke one connection on the 3 delta wires to the motor, the resistance problem when spining the dissapeard. When we plugged back he connector the problem was back.
so what i conclude is that it could be for two reasons:
-the overlaping of the magnet... that is not on the 9C motor
-the phase shift ( the need to try with a sensorless controller)
I'll try to contact Justin regarding that
Doc
