ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION DELTA /WYE and SERIE/PAPALLEL stator

Doctorbass said:
Hey Great new.. I found some SPDT 80A car relay at one of our local electronic surplus store!

Brand new... 8$ each

Very similar size of the common Bosh relay!! ( also have 28mm side)

I also found them on ebay!! :http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...4fffbd46a&rvr_id=&ua=WXI7&itemid=400099080285


These have large copper terminal so there is no doubt that they can do the 100V 100A AC of our 3 phase system!

Here is one i have:
Click to expand...

Hey doc,

do you thing 6 of these fix in x5?

-steve
 
yes!
 
steveo

the case for those relays is the same size as the relays i used and posted pictures of back on page 25 or 26 of this thread. so once you cut off the mounting tabs and open up the spaces of the stator a touch... they will fit. at least inside the case of the older/wider 5300 series motors. then the problem becomes stuffing all of that wiring under the hood. that takes patience and a bit of shifting and moving of wires. but it can be done.

the 70 or 80A relays have larger 0.375" blades for the contacts. if i did another motor using these relays with the larger contacts i would not use the push on connectors. they take up too much space. i would trim the length of those blades and solder the wiring directly to them. likely still be a problem to fit all of that interconnect wiring under the cover. especially with the newer narrower style motors.

but i am sure that it is something that could be accomplished if you so desire.

rick
 
rkosiorek said:
steveo

the case for those relays is the same size as the relays i used and posted pictures of back on page 25 or 26 of this thread. so once you cut off the mounting tabs and open up the spaces of the stator a touch... they will fit. at least inside the case of the older/wider 5300 series motors. then the problem becomes stuffing all of that wiring under the hood. that takes patience and a bit of shifting and moving of wires. but it can be done.

the 70 or 80A relays have larger 0.375" blades for the contacts. if i did another motor using these relays with the larger contacts i would not use the push on connectors. they take up too much space. i would trim the length of those blades and solder the wiring directly to them. likely still be a problem to fit all of that interconnect wiring under the cover. especially with the newer narrower style motors.

but i am sure that it is something that could be accomplished if you so desire.

rick
Click to expand...

Hi Rick.

I may bug you for your help on how to wire the motor for dual winding; i have a x5303 coming in a few weeks that will be getting these relays installed.

do you have any simple diagrams showing how to wire this for dual winding setup?... I understand the winding must be parrallel


thanks
-steveo
 
define "simple".

all i have is normal schematics.
series parallel-l.jpg

about as simple as it gets.
attached pdf is higher resolution.

rick
 

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The schematics tell the story! I get it now! That is seriously ingenious. LOL Thanks.

rkosiorek said:
define "simple".

all i have is normal schematics.


about as simple as it gets.
attached pdf is higher resolution.

rick
Click to expand...
 
Thank you for paving the way Doctorbass and Steveo.

Here are my experiences with delta/wye for anyone interested.

I've rewired 408 Crystalyte. I took the lazy route and connected the phases to manual switches. I changed the delta/wye mode before traveling and used that mode exclusively until I was done.

Here's what happened. I hit some bumps and the phase switches got toggled. The motor became sluggish or just quit. Correcting the switch positions to either delta or wye did the trick and I was moving again...until the next bump.

I noticed some alarming things after traveling 2 miles in delta mode. My phase wires were smoking. This didn't alarm me too much since I used 18 gauge stranded copper for the phase runs. Surprisingly, they held up quite well. The battery compartment had foam padding, it was this material that had melted and smoked. I did notice the back emf. The motor had substantially more drag when letting off the throttle at higher speeds.

I placed the bike in a trainer to do a bench test under load. I ran the bike in delta mode for several minutes and never noticed the phase wires or controller getting warm enough to cause heat issues. I suspect that most of the heat issue was a result of the back emf coasting at high speed or down hills.

I'm planning to place a weather proof toggle switch on the handle bars to control relays that toggle between delta and wye mode. Hopefully this will eliminate the back emf issue while coasting fast.

I have to admit I'm not game on placing relays inside the motor. The more stuff under the hood, the more likely something will break. I also wonder if centrifugal force would cause the relay to accidentally trigger....You are a bold bunch, I wish you all the best of luck.
 
I know what you mean about heated wireing. Heres what I had.

I peeled the sleeve back a little to reveal the damaged cable, GNARLEY!
DSC_2864.jpg

The more I peeled back, the more I saw!
DSC_2867.jpg

Seems ALL the wires got welded together!
DSC_2865.jpg

Yup, FUSED! LOL
DSC_2866.jpg


My 9C delta/wye uses the teflon insulated wiring. both phase and hall, and I have 600c degree sleeving. Heat issues in the wiring are intense.
by the way, centrifigal force is a non issue. the core dont spin. Peace... SS

orangelinesolutions said:
Thank you for paving the way Doctorbass and Steveo.

Here are my experiences with delta/wye for anyone interested.

I've rewired 408 Crystalyte. I took the lazy route and connected the phases to manual switches. I changed the delta/wye mode before traveling and used that mode exclusively until I was done.

Here's what happened. I hit some bumps and the phase switches got toggled. The motor became sluggish or just quit. Correcting the switch positions to either delta or wye did the trick and I was moving again...until the next bump.

I noticed some alarming things after traveling 2 miles in delta mode. My phase wires were smoking. This didn't alarm me too much since I used 18 gauge stranded copper for the phase runs. Surprisingly, they held up quite well. The battery compartment had foam padding, it was this material that had melted and smoked. I did notice the back emf. The motor had substantially more drag when letting off the throttle at higher speeds.

I placed the bike in a trainer to do a bench test under load. I ran the bike in delta mode for several minutes and never noticed the phase wires or controller getting warm enough to cause heat issues. I suspect that most of the heat issue was a result of the back emf coasting at high speed or down hills.

I'm planning to place a weather proof toggle switch on the handle bars to control relays that toggle between delta and wye mode. Hopefully this will eliminate the back emf issue while coasting fast.

I have to admit I'm not game on placing relays inside the motor. The more stuff under the hood, the more likely something will break. I also wonder if centrifugal force would cause the relay to accidentally trigger....You are a bold bunch, I wish you all the best of luck.
Click to expand...
 
It hasn't been an issue for me so far TD. I just replaced the relays in my motor (that my friend fried) with those heavy duty ones that Doc was showing (or the ebay equivalent of them at least). Back on the road now! :D
 
TylerDurden said:
Any guesses if the flux from the motor windings will overpower the flux from the relay coils?
Click to expand...

it has never happened to me. the flux from the stator windings is very localized and concentrated by the stator core. also the orientation is at 90deg. to the axis of the relays.

as far as Back EMF heating the wiring? that will not happen unles you are using regen braking. no regen = no current = no heating. if you are not using regen braking than the reason for heating would be that you are drawing far more current in real world driving than you realize. remember that your instantaneous winding current can be much higher than the average current drawn from the battery. especially if the motor is highly loaded.

localised heating or hot spots may also occur where there is a sharp bend or twist in the wiring.

rick
 
In DELTA the motor will draw 1.732 times as much current as in WYE mode on average. especially at low RPM (near stall) or at start up this can be an insane amount of current.

so if you are in DELTA mode and you run motor only from a standstill? not surprised that the wires got a little toasty. current through those wires would be very high. DELTA is only for high speed running.

rick
 
Hi everyone - my first post here. I just wanted to say quickly how helpful this forum has been, there are certainly a lot of gurus here. Now for my question: I have an older 4-series C'lyte 408/4011. Is it possible to permanently wire one of the winding sets / taps in delta while leaving the other in stock configuration? Would I then be able to simply let off the throttle and switch the set of phase wires that are currently driven by the controller with its onboard switch? It seems that leaving the 4011 in star configuration might provide a little better torque for starting off, but would it reach a high-enough rpm to make the switch to the 408 in delta mode without a huge current surge or damaging anything? If this is not possible, what about wiring one of the taps, say the 408, for a traditional delta/wye switch using a contactor / relay setup?
 
in the old 40xx series motors the thing is always in WYE or STAR configuration. when you switch to either select the full 11 turns of the winding - 4011 mode. or the shorter 8 turn tap 408 mode.

it is dead easy to switch them using either a 3PDT relay OR a set of 3 SPDT relays. wire one set of the outputs from the controller to the COMMON contacts, the 4011 motor wires to the NORMALLY CLOSED contacts and the 408 motor wires to the Normally open relay contacts.

you can control the relays using a convenient to use handle bar mounted switch. yes you can switch while in motion. no trouble at all. did that with mine for years.

rick
 
I already have it wired to a 3PDT switch and run it between both taps like it is intended. I am wondering if I can desolder and untwist the phase wires from just one of the taps and reconfigure just that one tap in the delta configuration. Basically the 408 would still be tapped at 8 turns but would terminate in a delta configuration while the 4011 would remain terminated in the wye configuration. This would allow more torque and lower currents on the 4011 for starting off and then switch to the faster winding and delta 408 for higher speeds. You could still switch between the two taps as the motor was intended but one would also be in the delta. I just don't know if the fact that it has the two different winding taps would prevent it from working in delta mode - any idea?
 
rocketgsx said:
I already have it wired to a 3PDT switch and run it between both taps like it is intended. I am wondering if I can desolder and untwist the phase wires from just one of the taps and reconfigure just that one tap in the delta configuration. Basically the 408 would still be tapped at 8 turns but would terminate in a delta configuration while the 4011 would remain terminated in the wye configuration. This would allow more torque and lower currents on the 4011 for starting off and then switch to the faster winding and delta 408 for higher speeds. You could still switch between the two taps as the motor was intended but one would also be in the delta. I just don't know if the fact that it has the two different winding taps would prevent it from working in delta mode - any idea?
Click to expand...

actually it makes no sense at all. no wiring sense anyways. it could be done by using a whole bunch of relays like a dozen of them or so. but that would be impractacle.

rick
 
Well, I have fully built a 9C 2807 to delta/wye, ran it, put it through its paces, had fun, and went fast. Then I did the same with a Golden Motor 48v 1000w. Fully built delta/wye. Ran it, blah blah blah. Same controller, Lyens 72v 65a, same AGM 12v SLA's 6S. I have to say, the diference in performance in favor of the Golden Motor is way more than noticeable, its rather extreme! Anyone building these I would suggest trying out the 48/1000 GM. Experience here says it puts the fun in E-Zooooom!
 
rkosiorek said:
In DELTA the motor will draw 1.732 times as much current as in WYE mode on average. especially at low RPM (near stall) or at start up this can be an insane amount of current.

so if you are in DELTA mode and you run motor only from a standstill? not surprised that the wires got a little toasty. current through those wires would be very high. DELTA is only for high speed running.

rick
Click to expand...

Actually - not to nit pick but this is not actually true (in theory it may be but not in practice) since the controllers will limit the current to roughly the programmed phase current.

The actual parallel your drawing from is that given 1.732 * the current at the phase, the delta mode operation will acheive the same inoz of torque as the wye counterpart.
And in wye you will reduce kv by 1.732:1 and increase kT or Torque Constant by the same factor.

Delta does the inverse trade, higher kV for less torque at the same current... in addition I have found Delta mode to be about 6-8% less efficient (rough approximation) which means more generated heat even given the same input current.

Most RC type motors are Delta configuration by default and most hub motors are Wye for higher torque and better efficiency... (most not all) An example is the Tower Pro 5330 - run in Delta it's about 82 maybe 83% efficient, run the same power level in Wye mode (watts not Amps) and you will see 88% efficiency... Astro Pro 3210 is Delta with a kV of 135 and an efficiency of 90% at 325 in oz continuous - convert to Delta and the same power level becomes 94% efficient.

Now just a final note for everyone...

Since we now have such large Relays (current handling) which we can beef up and which are available in DPDT 60 and 80A (with enhancement could be good for much higher currents)... why haven't I seen anyone post about dynamically reconfiguring their system - for instance in normal operation you have say 10S 4P for 20AH but flip a switch, energize a few DPDT high current relays and reconfigure the pack into 20S2P for double the speed and the same torque, since you would be up to speed already when you do this it would feel like more of a boost in the pants at the given current which was already set and in effect double your power level.

I should think this would be just as simple to implement as Delta/Wye if not more simple - depending on the power levels.

Just thought I'd throw this to everyone as I have been working on this and a charging relay system which will parallel all the sub packs and their balance leads (after removing from series) when the charger is connected before allowing charge current to pass to the pack... this allows for 4,5,6S balancing of huge packs using somthing like gary's modified Battery Medic 1A+ discharge boards to a very high degree of accuracy and automatically (no more KFF)...

-Mike
 
mwkeefer said:
why haven't I seen anyone post about dynamically reconfiguring their system -
Click to expand...




iirc this guy using a PIC got the idea off the old Vis4V.
think it wuz velowatt pioneered it there.
with e4-gear this cuts deep into non-hub's efficiency advantage.
throw in a voltage vector controller & that leaves only weight & the noise as their prime benefit.

bocabikeguy said:
For our 406-409, we now have solid state relays to select between 36 and 72 volts and also between the Wye winding and the Delta winding. These can be manually selected by handlebar switches, but also we have a PIC controller that we are programming to automatically select the best winding and voltage for lowest power consumption and best range, based on the throttle position, speed and current.
Click to expand...


bocabikeguy said:
My Scooterbike has an electronic switch to automatically switch between 37v and 74v, and between 406 mode and 409 mode, optimized for range and minimum watts. Every time I take off from a stop it is in 37v, 409 mode, cruising at 20 mph it is in 406, 37v mode and cruising at 30 mph it is in 406, 74v mode. Going up hills fast it is in 409, 74v mode. It is fun because, like a car, you can hit the throttle and feel it kick into overdrive either by switching to 72v or switching to 409 mode.
Click to expand...

bocabikeguy said:
The single speed motors are only about 80%+ efficient over about 25% of the speeds and 25% of the power range. But the 406-409 is 82%+ efficient over 42% of the speeds and 38% of the power curve, if you always use the correct winding for the conditions. If you also add the ability to switch voltages, say between 36 volts and 72 volts, you can expand the 82% efficiency rage to more than 70% of speeds and 50% of the power band. This is as good or better than the geared systems I have tested. Gears, for example, do not increase efficiency over a wider range of power, only over a wider range of speeds.
Click to expand...


http://tinyurl.com/sjvd9
 
I stand corrected = )_
 
Hello everyone,
Just a Noob here, this is my first post so please be gentle. Firstly I have to say you guys are geniuses. If I had build a spacecraft and my life depended how well it was made, I would want you guys on my team. Sorry not to stay strictly on subject, but I had a thought regarding this Delta Wye mod. Someone mentioned transient energy spikes when switching from one mode to the other. I was thinking what if.... we were to switch back and forth between modes at a high frequency and specifically try to induce the energy spikes (tuning for a resonant freq.) and then capture the spikes with fast acting capacitors (perhaps like the ones used for mobile audio) which then bleed off into the batteries or feed to controller with modified throttle? Does this sound totally goofy? Maybe I have too much time on my hands. Also, I was wondering if anyone had seen these? http://www.batcap.net/
 
bocabikeguy said:
The single speed motors are only about 80%+ efficient over about 25% of the speeds and 25% of the power range. But the 406-409 is 82%+ efficient over 42% of the speeds and 38% of the power curve, if you always use the correct winding for the conditions. If you also add the ability to switch voltages, say between 36 volts and 72 volts, you can expand the 82% efficiency rage to more than 70% of speeds and 50% of the power band. This is as good or better than the geared systems I have tested. Gears, for example, do not increase efficiency over a wider range of power, only over a wider range of speeds.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I believe all these statements. For one, I can't see how using a "409" wound motor in "406" mode (only using 2/3rd of the coil lengths) would help in any way with efficiency... unless he's calling delta mode "406" in which case I agree with him for the "406/409" analysis.

BUT, as for the 36V/72V battery switching figures, I can't see how this would help much with efficiency. The only advantage I can see is that the controller will be saving it's PWM losses if doing low speed cruising at 36V, versus doing 50% PWM at 72V. That's a few percent efficiency gain at most - more for crappy slow switching controllers, less if the controller has low switching losses.

I don't believe that series/parallel battery switching is worth doing, but I do believe delta/wye is worth doing. There is one major difference between the two: Motor D/W switching gives you more top speed while putting no additionnal stress on your controller (when switched at the right time). On the other hand, doubling the battery voltage would require you to also double your controller's max working voltage, forcing you to use higher voltage components which will actually loose you some/all of the efficiency gain you just got from avoiding PWM.

Any thoughts on this subject from my propellerhead/gearhead peers?
 
ZapPat said:
BUT, as for the 36V/72V battery switching figures, I can't see how this would help much with efficiency. The only advantage I can see is that the controller will be saving it's PWM losses if doing low speed cruising at 36V, versus doing 50% PWM at 72V. That's a few percent efficiency gain at most - more for crappy slow switching controllers, less if the controller has low switching losses.
Click to expand...
This question has been bugging me for awhile...

At 50%PWM, phase current is roughly the same as 100%PWM ?

But voltage (and power) are effectively halved; so I2R losses are proportionally 2x, compared to 100%pwm?
 
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