Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

[neptronix]

Glad you're considering my ideas.

In order to have high startup torque and stay under a watt limit, you can crank the phase amp to battery amp ratio as high as it will go to achieve that. A smaller DD will need a higher ratio than the pie. You will want an equally super slow winding 9C clone type motor to accomplish what you want.

A 30mm DD is probably the ticket. But play with the ebikes.ca motor simulator and see.

 

[tigcross]

We are just completing the first run of production bikes and it has been a real learning experience! The molded Carbon Fiber parts have turned out to take much more time than is realistic for the price at which we would like to sell the Electrom, so we are looking at which parts absolutely must be made in this way, and which could be produced more economically with other methods. We will revise our offerings and produce another run of Electrom in the fall of 2021.
Currently the hand-made carbon parts include the Tailbox and hatch, the Footwell, Bubble Support, Swingarm covers, Fenders and Pedalling Station Cowling. The reality is that only the Tailbox and Footwells truly need the strength and weight savings that custom molded carbon fiber offers.
In the meantime, our first two lucky buyers will get to start riding their new Electroms in the next month.

 

[thundercamel]

Good to hear, congrats! Will the molded carbon fiber survive a champaign bottle being broken over it?

 

[tigcross]

Gosh I hope so!

 

[neptronix]

So happy to see you moving forward. And also that you have customers already.

I showed my gal your bike to give her an idea of what i wanted to build.
Her thought was the same as mine - why isn't the windshield higher - if you crash, you fly forward into the windshield.
I told her at the speeds you'll be traveling on this vehicle, the crash is unlikely to break your ribs.
And also, to think of this as more of a bicycle, which makes zero promises about crash safety.

This may be a thing you need to clarify when selling it, since it will probably be viewed as a higher speed vehicle than it appears.

 

[tigcross]

Ah yes, the old "can you make the windshield higher, lower, further away, closer?" question.

I agree, with your assessment, because the Electrom looks fast, folks tend to think of it as operating at motorcycle speeds. It is undeniable that a head-on crash would be unpleasant no mater what the height of the windscreen is. It's funny how many people obsess about that considering how rare it is on a bicycle class vehicle. Here's a little traffic video to give your gal an idea of the speeds involved.
[youtube]Mkt3S6vFOJ0 [/youtube]

I've tried a number of windshield configurations and they all have compromises:

- Higher and you risk taking the windshield in the face in a crash, and if it is above your eyes you would need a windshield wiper on rainy days. I also ruled out an over-the head full covering because of the need for windshield wipers, also too much surface area presented to cross-winds creates handling issues.

-Lower and your knees bump while pedaling

I was curious if a higher windscreen would clean up the aerodynamics and it actually made the bike slower. I guess that while my head poking up is aerodynamically messy, it is still less overall surface area.

The height of the windscreen is adjustable in order to accommodate different size riders but it generally performs best at the rider's chest height.

 

[neptronix]

That makes sense. Your reasoning is good.

The lip at the end of the windshield also helps distribute the impact to a wider area of the body if it were to happen. Better to be hit with a thick pad and have the windshield be designed to deform than to shatter.

It is funny to even be thinking about crash safety on a bike. But with this sort of bike, we have a lot of possibilities to save the rider from harm.

 

[tigcross]

The lip at the end of the windshield also helps distribute the impact to a wider area of the body

Indeed. I've actually modified my mold to add a wide lip on the edge to do just that. The poly carbonate component of the windscreen is actually quite thin and flexible so on impact it would definitely deform before shattering.

 

[neptronix]

brilliant!

 

[tigcross]

brilliant!

Thanks, I'm glad you think so. here's a photo of the windscreen and carbon fiber support. the lip is not shown because I had not yet made it

 

[tigcross]

Here's a time-lapse video of the Electrom assembly process.
[youtube]42O6gM6wWHw [/youtube]

 

[tigcross]

a little spin around Vancouver with two Electroms.
[youtube]W_RVHDaA3X0[/youtube]

 

[Warren]

https://electrek.co/2021/08/31/radical-new-electric-bike-drive-systems-requires-no-chains-or-belts-entirely-ride-by-wire/

 

[tigcross]

Yep, the Schaeffler is pretty cool, however I do quibble with the "radical and new" moniker. Others and myself have been doing pedal by wire drives for some time. I do like the simplicity of their system but it would not be ideal for the Electrom as I'm trying to keep all of the heavy parts nice and low between the axles and thus I use a chain to transmit the power down to the generator. The extra weight of the generator placed up where the cranks are would have a small negative effect on the handling of the bike. There is some ambiguity about whether a pedal-by-wire system would qualify as an e-bike here in North America, I hope that the Schaeffler system coming onto the market will help clear that up.

 

[BalorNG]

Yep, the Schaeffler is pretty cool, however I do quibble with the "radical and new" moniker. Others and myself have been doing pedal by wire drives for some time. I do like the simplicity of their system but it would not be ideal for the Electrom as I'm trying to keep all of the heavy parts nice and low between the axles and thus I use a chain to transmit the power down to the generator. The extra weight of the generator placed up where the cranks are would have a small negative effect on the handling of the bike. There is some ambiguity about whether a pedal-by-wire system would qualify as an e-bike here in North America, I hope that the Schaeffler system coming onto the market will help clear that up.

Given how blatantly false (or intentionally misleading) statement regarding 5% less efficiency is, I'd say we should reserve judgement until independent reviews.

 

[ZeroEm]

I hope both of you are correct and on the right track. I know it is not for everyone as a person stuck with recumbents and long chains and high gear ratios peddle by wire is appealing even if I might lose a few watts.

Later would like some type of peddle car and this would be the preferable technology would it not?

 

[BalorNG]

I hope both of you are correct and on the right track. I know it is not for everyone as a person stuck with recumbents and long chains and high gear ratios peddle by wire is appealing even if I might lose a few watts.

Later would like some type of peddle car and this would be the preferable technology would it not?

There are quite a few already - Northern Lights, Podbike to name a few... at least 'upcoming' and close to production.

 

[ZeroEm]

Podbike; May not need the heater, but an AC would be nice, mostly hot down here. Trailer for a person or cargo. person is optional maybe to much to ask. That would do me for store and out of town rides. Not looking to replace my trike just something to fit the other riding not related to exercise.

by BalorNG » Sep 26 2021 11:19am

ZeroEm wrote: ↑Sep 26 2021 9:51am
I hope both of you are correct and on the right track. I know it is not for everyone as a person stuck with recumbents and long chains and high gear ratios peddle by wire is appealing even if I might lose a few watts.

Later would like some type of peddle car and this would be the preferable technology would it not?
There are quite a few already - Northern Lights, Podbike to name a few... at least 'upcoming' and close to production.

 

[tigcross]

There are quite a few already - Northern Lights, Podbike to name a few... at least 'upcoming' and close to production.

Having looked closely at the Podbike pedal-by-wire system I can say that it seems viable. They have two separate motors, one that outputs the maximum wattage allowed in the EU and the other that receives the rider-generated power. This separated approach allows them to operate clearly within the regulations.

The Northern Lights effort is a little suspect as they are using one direct-drive hub motor. From personal experience I can say that there is no way that a DD motor can produce the required torque to move their vehicle while operating within EU and GB power limits.

 

[tigcross]

for those who haven't seen it elsewhere, here's a new video about the Electrom.
[youtube]DGKc8YVXyuY[/youtube]

 

[BalorNG]

There are quite a few already - Northern Lights, Podbike to name a few... at least 'upcoming' and close to production.

Having looked closely at the Podbike pedal-by-wire system I can say that it seems viable. They have two separate motors, one that outputs the maximum wattage allowed in the EU and the other that receives the rider-generated power. This separated approach allows them to operate clearly within the regulations.

The Northern Lights effort is a little suspect as they are using one direct-drive hub motor. From personal experience I can say that there is no way that a DD motor can produce the required torque to move their vehicle while operating within EU and GB power limits.

If registered as moped, it would likely be viable... otherwise indeed this is a pretty hard legal conundrum. 250w, even 'true mechanical' wattage is pretty laughable when it comes to, say, climbs and most importantly accelerations.

I've also had a system with two motors, but for electro-mechanical, not legal reasons, and it works pretty damn well.

 

[ZeroEm]

tigcross have a few question or two. What size person does it fit? Is there a weight limit?

I ride a recumbent trike that looks more like a racer because my seat is at 36 degs. This is far back as I can go. want to try 30-35 degs. Will need to raise the front of the seat. Don't want to raise the CG.

Your e-bike would be just about what I need if it is long enough. Looks like you are forced to sit up right. Could move the seat forward at the bottom and recline it more. Then the peddles would be to close.

 

[BalorNG]

I'm not tigcross, but I can answer that one The problem with LWB form-factor is that if you put the rider very reclined, you'll need a truly monstrously long WB for adequate weight distribution. VERY light front weight bias might work for a human-powered LWB you ride at mostly low speeds, but for stable cornering you want weight distribution about equal between the wheels (still some rear weight bias, but not a great one).
And besides weight and sheer size, you'll need very high frame stiffness for stable handling with a heavy bike - which puts even MORE weight on the bike (which require more stiffness... a there a Tsiolkovsky equation for bicycles? )

36 deg is hardly a racer, btw 20 deg and below is a racer, though with fairings you can play with that considerably.

My next project is coaxial MBB 'MWB', that goes a very long way to fix those problems, but hard to add gears to. Using a pedal generator AND freewheeling cranks like on drift trikes fixes that problem - you still have 1 speed, but no chain besides a chain run to a pedal generator that can, accidentally, also work as a *MOTOR* in this case provided you set the system up accordingly...MBBs are tricky beasts though, no everyone's cup of tea.

 

[ZeroEm]

I'm not after high speeds, just something that is more robust than my trike with out setting straight up, which I can not do.

 

[tigcross]

tigcross have a few question or two. What size person does it fit? Is there a weight limit?

I ride a recumbent trike that looks more like a racer because my seat is at 36 degs. This is far back as I can go. want to try 30-35 degs. Will need to raise the front of the seat. Don't want to raise the CG.

Your e-bike would be just about what I need if it is long enough. Looks like you are forced to sit up right. Could move the seat forward at the bottom and recline it more. Then the peddles would be to close.

Hi, sorry I missed this chat as I've been off ES for a bit.

The Electrom is pretty long, and with the current seat set-up can handle riders from 5' to 6' 6"

The weight limit would depend on your choice of wheels. The frame and fork can handle up to 500 lbs. I regularly carry myself 210 lbs and up to 120 lbs of cargo.

You could set the Electrom up with a much more reclined seat, this would require moving the tail-box back, and setting the front windscreen lower.

BalorNG makes some good points about weight distribution, however, the weight distribution on the Electrom is compensated a bit because there are 50 lbs of batteries carried low and forward. The frame stiffness is not an issue on the Electrom as the frame as a very stiff aluminum box section.

All this said, I think that an extreme lay-back seat position on the Electrom would make for challenges managing the bike. As it is very heavy (it's really an electric moped that offers meaningful human power input) it does require some upper-body work to manage at low speed. this would be challenging from a more reclined position.