Emmo Urban lithium upgrade

[wiwild]

Hello,

I own a 1 year old e-scooter "Dyad E500 or Emmo Urban ..." with 48V 14Ah lead acid battery.

I mainly use it with two passengers, and when I climb hill it's very difficult for the scooter I think the limiting thing is the battery so I want to change it but I don't know what is the best solution.

I saw this one : https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/156-48v-10ah-38120-lifepo4-battery-16-cells-ebike-battery-pack-battery.html with this charger https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-charger-ev-charger/26-alloy-shell-400w-lifepo4-li-ion-lead-acid-battery-ebike-charger-ecitypower-charger.html#/ac_voltage-90v132v

My motor is rated at 500W I think, but when we are two on it the motor and the connections to the battery become warm but the controller seems to stay cold.

Also it goes to 32Km/h but 40Km/h would be nicer. I need 25 km range with 2 people(120-130kg) on it because I can charge it where I go and the acid can achieve it (rated 35km).

Does the 16S lifepo4 headway 38120S can achieve this ? (40km/h + 25km + good performance)

Sorry for my english tell me if something isnt clear .

Here are some photos, my phone's camera is pretty bad but still ok.

 

[bowlofsalad]

Hello,

I own a 1 year old e-scooter "Dyad E500 or Emmo Urban ..." with 48V 14Ah lead acid battery.

I mainly use it with two passengers, and when I climb hill it's very difficult for the scooter I think the limiting thing is the battery so I want to change it but I don't know what is the best solution.

My motor is rated at 500W I think, but when we are two on it the motor and the connections to the battery become warm but the controller seems to stay cold.

Also it goes to 32Km/h but 40Km/h would be nicer. I need 25 km range with 2 people(120-130kg) on it because I can charge it where I go and the acid can achieve it (rated 35km).

Does the 16S lifepo4 headway 38120S can achieve this ? (40km/h + 25km + good performance)

The battery you are considering is a lower capacity compared to the one you originally had, which means shorter range. Generally you'd probably be better off getting a 48 volt 20 amp hour battery of that variety. You say 500w, and it may say 500w somewhere, but it's peak(acceleration) and during hill climbing the power consumption is probably much higher than that. Various battery chemistries are rated at a 'C rating', I think the C rating of those cells you are looking to purchase is 1C. What C rating is is a number times the capacity of a battery to find the acceptable continuous draw from a battery in watts. To get a close idea as to the capacity of the battery , you multiply volts times amps hours, 48(v) times 20(amp hours) and you come up with 960(watt hours or Wh). So if you had a 960Wh battery rated for 1C If your controller drew much above 960w from the battery , it wouldn't be very good for the battery . To go further into this notion, the 48v20ah lifepo4 battery is going to be lighter and have greater capacity compared to a your 48v14ah lead acid battery.

 

[wiwild]

Yes I understand but my acid has maybe 12Ah left and is only 48V so 576Wh of energy and a 16S lifepo4 with 10ah has 512Wh so, in theory with regenerative braking, I have more than 30km and I need 25. Its good but what I want more is performance and I dont know how many amps my acid can put but the headway with 10C discharge can handle 100A(15-30 or 30-60 with BMS) at 51,2V instead of maybe 10A at 48V.

I want to know if I will have an improvement in performances or if the battery are not the problem ? I said the battery was the problem because in the manual they said :

Climbing Angle: 16(Lead Acid Version) - 18( Lithium Version) Degrees
Load Capacity: 140kg (Lead Acid Version)/180kg (Lithium Version)

 

[amberwolf]

The battery you are considering is a lower capacity compared to the one you originally had, which means shorter range.

Given the extreme Peukert effect on lead-acid, that's unlikely. A good rule of thumb with lead is to cut the rated Ah in half when used in traction applications. In some cases you'll get even less than that, depending on loading.

Remember that lead's Ah rating is typically done at 1/20C, while it may actually be being used at 1C to 5C to 50C, depending on loading and whatnot.

 

[wiwild]

That's sure but do you think a lithium upgrade will improve that much performances ?

Thanks.

 

[amberwolf]

As long as you choose cells that can handle the *actual* current load at both momentary peak and sustained maximums, Li is way better than lead.

But if you pick cells that can't put out as much current as lead (which can handle a LOT for a moment, despite the capacity hit), then even if you get more range, you won't get as good a performance for acceleration or hill climbing.

If you don't know how much current it presently actually uses, you should get a high-current ammeter (current-reading test meter), high-current multimeter (DMM), or better yet a watt meter (there are many, cheap or expensive, simple or feature-rich, discussed in many threads here on the forums if you search for wattmeter or watt meter) and verify the actual currents it uses during various operations.


Also keep in mind that your controller has a current limit in it, to protect itself and the motor, so hillclimbing with that much of a load is unlikely to improve much, if at all, with a different battery.

In that case, you would need to change the controller for a higher-current one, whcih will then stress the motor more, and might end up needing to replace that, too, to get the kind of hill climbng ability you're after. That could get complex, depending on how integrated your contorller / motor are with the rest of the scooter's electronics.

 

[wiwild]

Ok thanks I just bought the blue one wattmeter.

But according to you there will be no amelioration with battery upgrade?

In this thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48649&p=716885&hilit=emmo#p716885 with a new controller and delta wye mod top speed is about 58-60 km/hr so do you think the controller is the problem even if he isnt warm when riding ? I can open it, do solder, if it can improve it. But I want to keep it because it is strongly integrated with the LCD and other things like lights... I saw in another thread(can't find it now) that this type of controller can handles up to 72V, is that true ?

Edit: I have some 18650Cell enough to make a 13S3P pack can try to parallel it with SLA or useless ?

 

[wiwild]

Do you think it's safe to put 60V to the controller with a 16S Li-ion pack ?

Thanks.

 

[amberwolf]

Which specific chemistry? different ones use different charged voltages, so one might only be 58.4V, and another might be 67.2V!

As for what voltage is safe with the controller, that depends on your controller's actual components. You'[d have to open it up and see what the caps and FETs are, for p/n's, then look those up on the internet to see their specs for max voltage. I wouldn't want to run anything I expect to reliably work every day near the parts max voltages (though many people do this just fine).

 

[wiwild]

The cells are Samsung ICR18650-26F not the best but its what I have now, so 3,7V * 16 = 59.2V and 67.2V Fully charged but the problem is that :


I don't think this DC-DC will be ok with 60V but with 51,4 (14S) should be good, what do you think?

This is the inside of the controller how can I put the pcb off ? You can see Caps are rated at 63V but I dont know much about the mosfet..

 

[smeagol222]

What happened with this?

I get the feeling these bikes have 48v 18a controller. Wondering if I upgrade controller how many more amps the 500w motor can take? The biggest problem with these is the super slow takeoff

I tested yesterday with 48v lithium and it worked fine

 

[wiwild]

With a 48V 30A controller and lithium 14S I noticed no change.

 

[smeagol222]

I'm in the process of upgrading mine. I have 48v 40amp controller & 48v 20ah lithium battery and I upgraded the wheel with high torque 1500w $243 from china (I've been told it can take 3000w & up to 96v but I'm not going upgrade controller & battery just yet)
Going to update this post: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79964

 

[smeagol222]

Finally finished! Improvement on torque and top speed is amazing. Well worth the effort
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79964