Eonyx -talk me out of it if you can

[Joshua Goldberg]

Lets try this, you already have your Lifepo4 packs and chargers and you are waiting for them to self destruct and I think that is admirable that you are willing to do this for the good of everyone.

Not sure why you'd want to add the Lifepo4 from Electricrider unless you want to try every Lifepo4 from every company, again admirable if this is the plan

Lets try this. Prediction time. I Predict that by the Summer of 2008 every Chinese Lifepo4 manufacturer of Sub 25Ah Cells will be on the skids as sales in North America vanish. Not slow down but go Kaput as in Nuthin will be exported to North America in the Sub 25Ah size.

Pretty profound Prediction don't you think

There will be some amazing sales by May 01 as companies try to unload what they have before the bottom falls out and some of these battery packs might actually last a year or two so good hunting for those who are into risking it.

Will not tell you how I know this, kinda spoils the fun. But like you I have been wrong in the past, but in my case it happens very very seldom

The Chinese are making their profits on the smaller Sub 25Ah Packs, if everyone stops buying them then they move onto making electric toothbrushes or farm equipment and whatever Warranty you have or need for replacement cells goes out the window.

Since I don't want to see anyone lose their money and Lifepo4 ain't cheap, then my advice (based on my Prediction) is don't buy any Lifepo4 till at least May 2008 and if you really feel the need to be a Guinea Pig and can afford it, then sure go buy all you want now.

You could also look at this avoidance period as time to let the Chinese figure out what they are doing wrong and maybe by May they will have stopped screwing up and will have a Lifepo4 worth buying---don't hold your breath on that happening though

As for NDA's and such, I cannot tell you what I hear coming from the factories. I'd like to really since some of it is funny as all hell. The people you and everyone here are dealing with are Vendors and Vendors will not have the slightest clue what is happening at the factory level and some who might know have a financial incentive to keep quiet about it.

And this has nothing to do with Don Harmon or LifeBatt, LifeBatt will weather this because they are involved already in large format cells and are using a U.S. Government testing lab unlike the Chinese who will not risk that.

Oh and I have absolutely nothing to be gained by any of this in case anyone wondered. Hell if I was in it to make some cash I'd be telling everyone to buy Lifepo4 and selling them myself with an amazing Warranty and promises up the wazoo

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

ElectricRider is trustworthy

Yeah Right

Also it's technically correct to state it's the same chemistry as A123s, because they're both LiFePO4. It's the molecular structure of some components that makes A123s special, but the chemistry is still LiFePO4, and that chemistry does not explode.

Nope it is incorrect, just cannot tell you why or I'll be getting fan mail from Dr. Goodenough

Technically all Lifepo4 are the same as A123 in that A123 is in the Lifepo4 family, but Ethically it is totally wrong for Electricrider or anyone to associate their Lifepo4 with the reputation of A123 who have over One Million Lifepo4 Power Packs in use. It is like saying a Ford Pinto is the same as a Lamborghini because they both have 4 wheels and are a car. Ethically it just does not wash and I was surprised Electricrider felt the need to have people make that association....it is a bit creepy

Lifepo4 does not Explode is correct and if done properly it will not burst into flames--if done properly. A123 will not combust.

 

[Ypedal]

Hey.. can i play too ? :?


How's this for speaking of experience.

I ordered my Lithim packs in march, paid in full.. at the time there were very few players publicly in the game as there is now..

I based my desicion upon the fact that Andy from FalconEV who was in Taiwan at the time for a trade show would know about the industry better or as well as anyone else.. and gave it a go.

My 48v 25ah pack was promised for July 07. Well.. september came and i was told that 2nd generation cells and BMS were now delaying things and it would be a bit longer.. fine.

In october i received my Battery pack.

This is what you may get from China :

 

[Ypedal]

Now, the above is not what i did to the pack.. it's how the pack was sent from the factory !

And both chargers failed within 4 hours of use...

How's that for 1700 $ US ! ( when the canadian dollar was 0.90 $ ! )

Most of you who have been here for a while will recognize these as the same as Oatnet's Cheer-Ocean pack.. made by GEBattery !

 

[EMF]

I ordered my Lithim packs in march, paid in full..

When I was scouting around, trying to figure out what batteries to use, I came across the FalconEV site. I spoke with him about the Lipos on his site at the time. I was interested...

Then I was told that I would have to pay up front for the batteries and then they would be ordered but I needed to hurry bla bla bla.

My "spidey sense" kicked in and I did not call him back. I think this guy should get his product himself, then look at it or test it or something, then.. he can sell it.

With a little research, you can bypass this step and speak directly with a vendor in China and have about the same chance of success IMHO. I actually had a couple emails go back and forth with some Chinese rep and the price was very, very good and nearly pulled the trigger on a pack. But, it was not Life so I said, to myself, I don't want to burn my house down. I think I will go with A123.

I'm not picking on this guy at FalconEv and at least he is trying to get things for a very niche group that is deadly expensive. Having said that he has no control over what he gets, any more than you or I, I suspect. Did he not even look at your pack prior to you receiving it?

Here is a picture of a Li-on battery from GUANGZHOU MARKYN BATTERY I wonder if anyone has heard of them? The price was so tempting at ~700 with 4a charger for the 20 amp our. The 30 amp hour weighed like 14.7 Kg!

 

[green hornet]

yes I got smacked, and ypedal too
Lesson learned is; it's a big risk
We'll recover and be smarter next time
Never let price be a reason to buy / not to buy

Taiwan all the way from here out

I'm not dead yet!
just wait

 

[recumbent]

metalairhead,

If you only purchase the cells & BMS from LIFEbatt you get 2 years warranty and only (relatively speaking) about $2100 cost plus your charger of course, for 48volts/20ahrs & BMS boards which is not as costly as your figures suggest. Plus the better warranty and hopefully more solid chemistry and manufacturing.
I know from working in the manufacturing sector for many years, that things such as, curreing time, finer grinding, and things that just cost more but look the same on the surface make the difference between a great product and an acceptable short term gratification, read, cheaper product.
I'm in the same boat as you when buying batteries two months from now. Good luck with your purchase.

Looks as though we are going to find out soon enough who rules with the best batteries, and boy oh boy are they going to win big time in the long run.

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

GMB do not manufacture the battery you posted a pic of. GMB makes small consumer cells and they act as Export Agent for a variety domestic manufacturers with zero interest in exporting abroad. In the past they refused to honor warranties citing the fact they were not the Manufacturer but they will not say who the Manufacturer is, so the Warranty is crap

When you start into dealing with the Chinese you'll discover if you dig deep enough most of the companies who describe themselves as really Big manufacturers are actually one guy in a room above a Noodle Shop

IF you see a website showing an ultra modern manufacturing complex, remember that photo and as you surf longer you will see that same complex in different Provinces supposedly owned by the company doing the website you are now on.

In China In their Culture they project an image that they hope someday to acquire. North Americans see the photos and assume it is their factory.

Would you buy Li-Po or Lifepo4 from one guy above a Noodle Cafe'? So to get rich and someday have that nice big factory they put on the face of success.

It is a crap shoot, one really good manufacturer I am familiar with probably had the highest quality Li-Po in Asia, great warranty and one large shipment was defective, 80% of the container was bad. Their Warranty fell apart because they could handle a few returns but hundreds in one shot overwhelmed them and it took months to get it straightened out. They had to dissmiss half their workers and sell equipment to cover their losses.

 

[EMF]

GMB do not manufacture the battery you posted a pic of.

Oops! I guess they fibbed a little then, or borrowed a picture. Take a look at page one Item One = Scope. Of course, "produced" can mean many things. The translation is pretty rough throughout.

So, do you think this webpage is a fake and these folks are actually residing above a noodle shop? http://www.gmbattery.com/English/About.asp and http://www.gmbattery.com/English/About.asp?ID=20

 

[jondoh]

With all this talk about lithiums not being ready for prime time, i feel that I should say that i've had my milwaukee's for over a year with almost 2000 miles. I use the stock batteries with a custom cable. I use my e-bike as a second car so reliability is very important and the emoli's have delivered. I use six of the 28v packs (I have 8 total) which gives pretty close to 500 watt hours of power. This is good enough for 12 miles at top speed and acceleration or over 20 miles of 20 mph. I've had no problems with chargers or with the bms. I have 8 packs total and i've only noticed that 2 of them have a voltage little lower than the rest (0.3 v). That's about it.

The milwaukee warrantee is pretty good too. I made a cable for my buddy joystix2. He bought 6 batteries from ebay but one of them didn't charge properly. He took it to the local service center. They had a special tester that just snaps into the pack. The tester can test individual cells. It read that one cell was bad and that the pack only had 11 charges. They gave him a brand new battery still in the package no questions asked! You're not going to get that kind of service from a factory in china.

 

[Beagle123]

oatnet wrote:

Great! Here is your big opportunity demonstrate your assetness, impress us all with your knowledge, and point to these testing reports that detail all of the major LiFePO4 failures. Don was unable to find them to back up his claims, maybe you will do better.

Joshua Goldberg resopnded:

I know it is frustrating my saying most of these affordable Lifepo4 producers are exporting garbage when I cannot provide details & reports listing the names of the companies and describe the failures themselves.

oatnet responded:

Wow, that is pretty weak... Earlier in this thread you posted otherwise: "Have seen the testing reports on all the major Lifepo4 products (8 of 10 failed). Maybe you are on the wrong e-bike Forums not to be seeing it." Please point us to these reports on the 'right' ebike forums.

Joshua didn't give any links to these "right" forums.

Now, I've heard Joshua claim that all these chinese manufacturers are producing sub-standard batteries that can catch on fire, but has no data to back it up.

Then he said:

When you start into dealing with the Chinese you'll discover if you dig deep enough most of the companies who describe themselves as really Big manufacturers are actually one guy in a room above a Noodle Shop

So my question is: If you know of anyone who's 'just a guy above a noodle shop' then why can't you identify them? How can you be sued? Does this 'noodle guy' have a bunch of high-priced lawyers? What are you scared of? Last time I checked, we had freedom of speech in this country. Just tell the truth, and you have nothing to worry about.

Can you name one 'guy above a noodle shop?' Please include link.

Also, I haven't heard of any LiFePO4 explosions/fires. Maybe you can link to one of those too.

You may post your vague, evasive answer below.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

Joshua didn't give any links to these "right" forums.

Now, I've heard Joshua claim that all these chinese manufacturers are producing sub-standard batteries that can catch on fire, but has no data to back it up.

To quote a line from Star Trek:
"You do not perceive the honor we bestow upon you. (klak-klak)"

When JG spews trash it is high praise indeed.




That's because he craps his shorts when a competitor releases an obviously superior product to anything he has on offer.
Only then does he crawl out of his <A HREF="http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=347957">cesspool</A> to come here & issue dire warnings of fire & armegeddon to scare off customers from the competition until he has his product offering in place.

Explosions, fire, brimstone, NDA's, all SOP from ole JG, it's the same strategy over & over.
<A HREF="http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/lithium-polymer-battery-volt15-hour-p-165.html">Texas Electric LiPo's</A> being BBQ starters was a previous target of his, all because JG was soo keen to find out who is the chinese supplier.
To date not one incident of flame, even when T.E./EVTech's <A HREF="http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1482">shop burned down</A> from an exploding propane tank, the LiPo was the only thing that didn't catch fire.
So much for finger-wagging prognostications of doom.
Interesting also how his attitude on battery warranty has done a 180.


http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/message/47263
As for EVTech saying their Li-Polymers won't shoot flames, I have to
question this because Li-Polymers do cause fires. Having claims of 100%
safety made by the Chinese means nothing. Bench testing in Texas also means
squat unless that testing is extensive and the batts have been cycled
through several hundred times and used to power different motors under
varying loads that mimic e-bike riding in all weather conditions



Warranties are wonderful, but on batteries the Warranty is "Limited",
meaning the vendor will "replace" the battery, but not the house the battery
was charged in and said house is now reduced to smoldering rubble




http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/message/54769
Too bad you ignored the question of who makes your Li-Po batts.

I certainly hope you are not basing your statement that Li-Po are
Non-Combustible because it was only Lithium-ions that had reports filed with
the CPSC. Li-Po DO shoot flames---wanna see some pics of a fried Li-Po
powered Xtracycle?



http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/message/55030

My particular issue is having a vendor declaring a product safe for use
without providing a shred of evidence to support that claim other than
stating his years of experience with other products. The vendor does 2
things, the obvious is he sells product, the less obvious is his Claim is
counter to what everyone in the Industry has been claiming and stressing.
The later is more dangerous because it is declaring that chemistry safe for
use and users thinking the product won't shoot flames means they won't take
precautions they would normally when they are hearing everyone and their dog
saying the chemistry is dangerous.



Dragging this out further, do we name the vendor (when we cannot name the
product itself because the name of the product manufacturer is kept hidden
by the vendor)??



Do we as a Community continue to declare this battery chemistry as a
potential BBQ starter because this is what the Industry is saying or do we
Hush Up since we have a Vendor saying the opposite and his sales will suffer
if we continue saying the opposite to what that Vendor is declaring.



I am getting a slew of emails and phone calls now from people telling me
that Li-Po are now 100% Safe because XXXX in Txxxs is saying so and they
want to start buying them too from other companies that have less expensive
Li-Po.



Even have one Vendor who wants to stock Li-Po now and using the "Safe
Non-Combustible" statement from XXXX to sell Li-Po from another company and
I know those Li-Po have cremated e-bikes and torched the front half of 2
houses (that company recalled their Li-Po and vanished for 6 months and are
back with an improved BMS)



What value is Power Assist Group if people come here asking are these Li-Po
safe and all they hear from P A Members (that this Vendor has convinced)
that they are safe?



You censor Power Assist Members who are saying Li-Po are still dangerous and
this XXXX Vendor is making misleading statements and you only allow Members
to voice the opinion of this Vendor, then the Group has zero value to anyone
but that Vendor.



All I want here is for the Vendor to STRESS "due caution" BECAUSE the Li-Po
(may not) be as Safe as he believes them to be and he name the Manufacturer
and date of manufacture. How hard can that be??



I'd love there to be a totally safe Li-Po battery for e-bikes, we'd be
beating a path to the Vendors door if it was true and he'd get filthy rich
really fast. Keeping secrets is NOT the way to get rich.



joshua goldberg





sound familiar?

The pony only knows the one trick & it's obviously proven very effective for him in the past
At least with noobs that don't know any better, actually believing & trusting anything he has to say.
For anyone that isn't a noob, we know the score & don't need to waste our time reading how the lithium boogie-man is gonna come & burn our house down.

So nothing new to see here.
Move along... move along...
That is all.

 

[Beagle123]

It seems to me that there is an effort to discourage people from building lithium ebikes by sscaring people with images of explosions and fire. Of course, if there was real danger of fire or explosion we would have heard about it already.

I use this site to learn about building ebikes and moving the whole coomunity forward. When trolls come onto the site spreading dis-information, they are causing a major set-back to our efforts. They are also damaging endless-sphere.com by tainting our pool of information.

I hope the people running this site will ban anyone who's not helping our cause.

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

Members on the TidalForce Forum report fires with their Li-Po packs. First pack Richard Papa installed died. Li-Po DOES catch on fire and always has. An e-motor company in Portland OR had 30% of his Li-Po packs fail and he recalled the packs and sent them back to Singapore.

DLMenergy in OZ recalled his Li-Po from GBP after fires. DLMenergy then left the e-bike biz.

A Monkey Island Member in Chicago had 1/4 of his house destroyed after his 5 Lithium packs caught fire while charging. The heat was so intense it reduced his aluminum trike to a puddle

GMB do NOT make any Battery chemistry above C Cells, they act as overseas Export agents for other companies. Dr. Mark Lund is a Partner of GMB.

GEB is now 2 companies, due to an internal squabble last summer the company split into 2 with one doing LIFEPO4 and the original doing Li-Po, both chemistries are failing.

YESA = One guy named Sam with a Hotmail email account acting as export agent. If there one company he deals with? It is anyone's guess but he will not say who that company is.

ATEN is having BMS issues (not published) but it will be used at some point as an excuse for delivery slowdowns

ABF the export Agent is Robert Chang, would not go anywhere near ABF simply because they have a dreadful track record with Li-Po and Ni-MH

LAZHI is good (no website), they build packs on License for SAFT and Toshiba. SAFT has decided to delay offering LIFEPO4 because of all the problems with getting the chemistry to stabilize.

Think about that kiddies, a Huge company like SAFT decides it is too soon to launch LIFEPO4

Peace Bay is a fairly good company doing Lithium and Ni-MH but again they are primarily making batteries under contract for other companies

Greensaver doing Silcone Batteries, good company and now that the Chinese Military have stopped using them they are now exporting to Europe and America....not Lithium but figured I'd mention it for anyone looking for an affordable alternative to Ni-CD

Hi-Power and China Hi-Power CN do Lithium and are getting into the export market but both primarily act as manufacturers for all the Distributors people think are actually manufacturers.

PointOne in Singapore is NOT a manufacturer, they are a Distributor of Li-Po, there is a Point One also in Singapore who do make Li-Po, but what people are buying is from the Distributor. I assume the use of 2 almost identical company names was done on purpose by the Distributor.

Distributor in China simply means one guy above a Noodle Shop up to a husband wife team in an office.

58% of ALL Battery Manufacturers in China are companies owned by American, French and German companies. THESE companies do not rely upon Distributors to flog their batteries and they do NOT have pretty websites with amazing specifications.

What you are seeing in most cases are Distributor Websites and Distributors are there to make cash and most will make their products look as good as they can because that is what Americans want to see.

Let me explain this a bit further since it isn't common knowledge. You have Manufacturers who have traditionally supplied the Domestic Market. They have never even thought about exporting overseas. They have zero experience dealing outside of China and for most the idea of selling abroad scares them.

Enter the Distributor who contacts these Companies and offers to handle 100% of their Overseas Exports and promises nice big cash returns. These Companies love it and go for it. They are still lost about how all this works but trust the Distributor. Now the Distributor makes his profits getting Americans or Canadians to buy the products the Manufacturer makes, but the Distributor will act as Export Agent for many Manufacturers. He will then look for the company who has the lowest prices of a Battery that may or may not be what his Website says it will be. The lowest price he can get from the Manufacturer ensures him a greater profit, so what incentive is there for him as a Distributor to get you the Customer the BEST battery out there?

Gets better, when the Distributor posts Graphs and Specifications and photos. This will seldom be from the Manufacturer he represents. Distributors will hijack pics and graphs from other Distributors.

I believe Zak Lee is the President of GBP and you can call him, he speaks English as do a lot of the Heads of the newer Manufacturers who have their own Overseas Export Agents. Those who do not speak English tend to use Distributors who are the people to watch out for and Distributors are also the ones who attend Trade Shows. End result is often an American Buyer thinks he is buying Direct from a Manufactuer and that ain't the case.

There was an e-bike seller last year in Paris who gave up after his shipment of Li-po had packs catching on fire as he bench tested them. More recently (3 weeks ago) an e-motor seller in Yugoslavia had his shipment of Li-Po sent back because of the fires.

Question time: How do you know that the LIFEPO4 you are buying is not Li-Po??

When you buy battery packs from any Dealer in Canada or the USA or wherever you have to assume that Dealer will go to bat for you when your battery pack fails. You buy Direct from China and you are totally on your own and if the Distributor wants to build up a good reputation he will honor the Warranty but this does not happen as often as you'd expect or hope for.

What bothers me about all these people here saying they have all these fantastic battery packs and how I am just blowing smoke is for how long have these packs lasted so far without a failure. You get 100 people preaching about a fantastic Li-Po that has only 100 or 200 cycles and everyone and his dog rushes out to buy them and then those 100 people start having fires?

Bottom Line is ONLY LifeBatt has the Balls to have their Lifepo4 subjected to Independent Lab testing by Sandia Labs and by BATSO. Both are established and recognized internationally. IF your ATEN or YESA or ABF Lifepo4 are so wonderful, then why are they not being Tested by Independent Testing Labs?

Why are you people so eager to mess with a chemistry that is failing so badly? IF Lifepo4 ever does stabilize and manufacturers get a handle on how to make quality packs, then buy them but why play Guinea Pig this early on?

Almost forgot, why companies are taking your cash and then promising delivery dates that seldom materialize is the Lifepo4 they assumed was ready to be exported has failed. These Distributors will then order from another supplier who has stock on hand but the Distributor hasn't a clue about the reputation of these backup suppliers and so you could end up with Li-Po instead of Lifepo4, you can end up with Lifepo4 that was ruled unsafe and has so far been picked up by several companies, a whopping 75 Tons of impure Phosphate reputable companies won't go near.

PS has anyone asked ATEN or YESA for a copy of their Liability Insurance coverage just to see how well they stand behind what they sell. Distributors won't be Insured, Manufacturers will be and that is one way to tell them apart.

This is soo much fun I can see why people use Endless-Spear

I am seldom here and will be here even less from now on, so you can sleep easier and reduce your Prozac intake. The Lifepo4 project I am working on will take up most of my time for the next 6 months.

Final Note: I don't care if anyone believes me or not but I do worry about some of the incorrect information being tossed around here by people who have been conned and are too thick to realize it.

 

[TylerDurden]

Mmmmmmmmm........ Prozaaaaaac......


All the information shared here is open to question. Independent validation is achieved by building a body of evidence.

Kudos to those who bring in firsthand primary data at their own expense and risk.

Kudos to those who can point us to other verifiable resources.

Until indpendent lab tests show better choices, the cells used in powertools are the best bet for safety. But don't forget even the monolithic Sony got stung on bad batches... so there is no such thing as a certainty, just better odds.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

Members on the TidalForce Forum report fires with their Li-Po packs.

Totally false, deliberately misleading.
A member (singular).
One of the first LiPo's ever hooked into a TF puffed due to excessive regen.
So that was part of the learning curve, need to disable regen.
Not even close to flaming.
No other incidents to date on dozens of packs & thousands of cumulative miles.
Provide the link & prove me wrong.

Just because you can point to some isolated incident doesn't mean you're free to paint with a wide brush to condemn all without placing it in it's proper context.
That's a Republican tactic of fanning flames.

 

[Beagle123]

Why are you people so eager to mess with a chemistry that is failing so badly? IF Lifepo4 ever does stabilize and manufacturers get a handle on how to make quality packs, then buy them but why play Guinea Pig this early on?

Joshua, let me explain something to you: the people here aren't cowards who shy away from new ideas. We love experimenting with new products. I just spent $3000 building my scooter, testing many, many new ideas. I've written many times, "o.k. I'll be the guinea pig this time." and tested something new to me. So when you ask, "why play guinea pig?" you obviously don't realize that you're speaking to a huge heard of proud guinea pigs! All we ever do is sacrifice our money to test new things.

I don't care if there's some distributor out there who's not totally honest, or a new battery company that makes mistakes. We guineaa pigs know that stuff goes with the territory.

So, I would ask you to let the guy named Sam sell batteries, and please don't discourage my fellow guinea pigs from trying new things. I don't want to be the only one screwing-up so everyone can learn what not to do.

Here at endless-sphere we don't harass or scare our guinea pigs. We revere them. Guinea pigs are there to be appreciated. So the next time you read about someone spending their hard-earned money on a hare-brained project, just say, "thank you" because he's taking the fall for the rest of us.

 

[fechter]

All batteries will have failures. Even A123, Moli, Valence, Saft and Kokam.

As long as the manufacturer or distributor will make good on defective product, I don't see it as anything unusual.

Anything electric can start a fire. Way more houses are burned down by toasters than batteries. I'm not too worried. Chargers are more likely suspects than the cells themselves. A properly designed charger will not allow the batteries to self-destruct. A crappy charger can fry even the best batteries.

I'm willing to take some risk to save thousands of dollars.

Greensaver silicone batteries are total crap, or at least no better than run-of-the-mill SLA batteries. Lead is dead (almost).

 

[efreak]

Has anybody ever bought anything from this guy?

he is in toronto.

efreak

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

anyone care to rebut this?
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/message/67990

We are accustomed to having a few Ni-MH or Ni-CD cells go bad in the first
few months and we remove them and install new ones and we're fine. You
cannot do that with Lifepo4 and expect the pack to work.

I think this may come as a surprise to DoctorBass whose entire packs are comprised of recycled cells & are working fine.






I've been watching the Endless-Sphere Forum lately and it is a riot how much
misinformation is tossed around



He would know, after all he is an accomplished mæstro of disinformation.
So if you need a good chuckle about Lifepo4 check out the rantings of the profit Joshua who can divine the future & we're all gonna burn.

 

[TylerDurden]

Well, I guess that explains why he's shutting down the group... everybody left.

:lol:

 

[fechter]

I've been watching the Endless-Sphere Forum lately and it is a riot how much
misinformation is tossed around

He didn't specify who was posting the misinformation.... :wink:

That's OK. I like to figure things out for myself the hard way. It wouldn't be any fun if nothing ever blew up.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Great. So we've gone from Girlscouts to guinne pigs.

 

[marty]

Joshua Goldberg got you Guinea Pigs all riled up with his negative comments on batteries from China. Guess I am a Guinea Pig too?

Come on all you Guinea Pigs lets all keep buying and testing batteries till we find the lightest, smallest, cheapest, and most powerful battery on this planet.

You want some proof of problem with a battery? Don't know what country it come from? See picture of Ypedal's battery.

 

[Ypedal]

Wanna hear someting ironic ?

Joshua was the one who led me to Andy !

I'm ok with that tho, i don't like wasting my money, but i do like to learn and move on, you can read about something forever from the comfort of your computer chair.. but until you get your hands dirty and test this stuff your opinion is nothing more than someone elses experience.

Some people should NOT be experimenting with this stuff.. you have to know the limits of what you can and can't do safely, or within reason.

A house fire is as serious a problem as it gets, i don't care if it's batteries, a toaster, or an electrical short in your house power panel... shit happens.. no one wants to burn down their house. obviously.

But.. that being said.. i've lived a fairly dangerous life and have hurt myslef enough to learn my limits.

IF information was shared freely i would not have to do this, but what's the fun in that ? :wink: