[EU]Looking for a reliable conversion kit

[offGridDownUnder]

Many of us here use regenerative braking to good effect. Especially those of us in hilly environments.

I'll second this. I've had regen on three bikes I've converted to electric and used for several years. I don't own a car.

On all but the steepest hills, the larger motors (Grin All-Axle and GMAC) have brought the bikes to a standstill. In an emergency, I'll pull the levers past that to add the mechanical brakes, but for everyday sensible riding, I don't need the mechanical brakes.

Except now with an SX2 as the motor on my heavy trike. That does not generate enough resistance (on serious hills) and I'm pulling in the mechanical brakes now. I'm designing a motor cradle to mount an All-Axle v3 rear now, and I expect this to restore the regen braking abilities.

Grin allows using the throttle to vary the regen strength once it's been invoked by the switch, and with all of my set ups I can put that to good use varying the resistance so I can roll all the way up to the stops.

 

[Az.]

Except now with an SX2 as the motor on my heavy trike. That does not generate enough resistance (on serious hills) and I'm pulling in the mechanical brakes now.

Why won't you install hydraulic brakes?

 

[stancecoke]

Keep it simple, keep it effective.

Hence the recommendation for a direct drive. No gears, no freewheel, no wear except the bearings. Simply indestructible (if you control the temperature).

regards
stancecoke

 

[Akologi]

Hence the recommendation for a direct drive. No gears, no freewheel, no wear except the bearings. Simply indestructible (if you control the temperature).

regards
stancecoke

But direct drive doesnt have the torque for steep hills as far as i understood it.

 

[Az.]

I'm actually fussy about my local legal requirements as I don't want to give any ammunition to the anti-bike crowd here (<= meaning where I live, not ES).

I wish all had the same attitude. Major push back is expected here in UK as to many stupid people are using e-bikes as they please and put others in danger. Already was announced in kings speech.

 

[stancecoke]

But direct drive doesnt have the torque for steep hills as far as i understood it.

Torque is a matter of motor current, as written before, you'll need a controller that is capable of 70-90 amps.

 

[Az.]

Geared Hub Motor Vs Direct Drive Hub Motor Ebike: Differences and Pros and Cons

This guide explains the difference between a geared hub motor Vs direct drive hub motor. We'll also outline the pros and cons of each. We'll cover weight, efficiency, range, longevity, cost, noise, and much more.

wheretheroadforks.com

 

[stancecoke]

sorry, but this article says nothing. Just take a look at the grin simulator, my random choice of a DD and a geared motor shows, that this DD has more torque than this geared motor with the same controller settings.


If you adjust the controller settings, you can get a totally different picture:



If your primary concern is reliability and not weight, you should choose DD

regards
stancecoke

 

[E-HP]

1. 25°

You're mixing degrees with percent.

But direct drive doesnt have the torque for steep hills as far as i understood it.

Checking the terrain in your area, I couldn’t find any hills a direct drive couldn’t climb. And no street close to a 47% grade. If it were that steep then regen would be a must, just to offset the brake cost. Without regen I’m now spending about $100 a year on pads (regen is “worth” $100 a year for me, and I’m about to change out the rotors), where it was zero when I had it,
If it weren’t for your 250w limitation, I think a direct drive would be the preferred motor, since speed/timeliness is how you earn your tips, and a direct drive will climb fast rather than slow.
With the 250W limitation, I think a small geared hub, no PAS, and a button instead of a throttle. 250W isn’t enough to mess around with a throttle, so a button (full throttle) would be easier to conceal and simpler.

 

[Akologi]

You're mixing degrees with percent.

Checking the terrain in your area, I couldn’t find any hills a direct drive couldn’t climb. And no street close to a 47% grade. If it were that steep then regen would be a must, just to offset the brake cost. Without regen I’m now spending about $100 a year on pads (regen is “worth” $100 a year for me, and I’m about to change out the rotors), where it was zero when I had it,
If it weren’t for your 250w limitation, I think a direct drive would be the preferred motor, since speed/timeliness is how you earn your tips, and a direct drive will climb fast rather than slow.
With the 250W limitation, I think a small geared hub, no PAS, and a button instead of a throttle. 250W isn’t enough to mess around with a throttle, so a button (full throttle) would be easier to conceal and simpler.

Hmm so now you guys somehow convinced me away from geared though. others said with a controller that has high amp i can just go for a Direct drive and get enough power. + it has less maintenance + there are some with regen braking (if i want to go for one).

I mean Geared might be slightly more energy efficient, has free pedalling and is smaller/lightweight, these aren't really the major factors for me. I'd prefer a low maintenance bike with enough power to be able to climb hills, if i have to strap on a bigger battery and a higher amp controller I wouldn't mind to do so. If the bike breaks down its not too much of an issue for me to get it back home, i can take it into public transport. I just need to be able to do about 100km per day so a battery with 150km or 200km range would do the job.

 

[E-HP]

Your only real question is how to get the most out of 250W, so you have about 3 choices. A small geared hub, or TSDZ2 or BBS01 mid drive. Sorry your laws suck.

 

[stancecoke]

Your only real question is how to get the most out of 250W

The 250W rated power is often discussed in the german forum. It's just a number on the motor label. Even grin is very creative, to sell the Grin Motor as 250W continous power in Europe.
All-Axle Hub Motor - Grin Products - Product Info

The MAC is sold as 250W, also.

regards
stancecoke

 

[99zip99]

Back to Regen your battery and bms must be able to take current that much in a spike that regen can generate as it's un regulated and chargers are regulated usually three to five amp a motor can Regen over what the BMS and the battery is capable of taking in a spike.

I had a Mxus 3000watt motor a power velocity controller a 72 volt A123 battery no BMS 12 years still working (very big and heavy)and I couldn't reprogram that controller it would hit 2100 Watts going downhill and was real rough on the axle even with two torque arms it wasn't worth the hassle. I got a box of his controllers power velocity not working of course.
Plus we're talking about a 250 geared motor ?

 

[Akologi]

Grin rates their All-Axle hub motor at 250W, and they will laser engrave that on the motor side plates to ease interactions with authorities. The All-Axle can handle 1000w, and Grin has numbers that show it qualifies as a 250W continuous motor.

Their Cycle Analyst permits loading 3 sets of parameters and switching between them while riding - power levels, maximum speed up to which power is provided, etc.

In fact, I can set the boost from cadence to be well above what my legs can provide, and thus my trike is moving faster than I am pedaling - so no load on me. In this way, I am legal as I am pedaling, the speed provided by the motor tops out at 25km/hr. My throttle-input-limit is set to 6km/hr - legal in most States in Australia, and it uses as much power as needed to get me started. Then it backs off and speed settles to the limit, but by then I am pedaling and I don't need to strain at all if I don't want.

I set the power high, and over time I will lower it to pick up a larger and larger share of the load to get my legs in shape. And I'll dial it back up when I am tired, or meet a steep hill.

I looked up the grin all axle, pretty expensive, butit says its a front motor? I havent tryed driving a bike with front motor and i'd guess driving one would feel quite weird

Edit: ah nevermind just found rear version, okay I think I'm sold with the Grin Motor.

 

[E-HP]

The 250W rated power is often discussed in the german forum. It's just a number on the motor label. Even grin is very creative, to sell the Grin Motor as 250W continous power in Europe.

Ya, sort of like the 250W rated Brose I mentioned, 250W “rating”, 800W peak.

 

[Az.]

Your only real question is how to get the most out of 250W, so you have about 3 choices. A small geared hub, or TSDZ2 or BBS01 mid drive. Sorry your laws suck.

That is not true. There are many very powerful motors to choose from (I have TSDZ8).

If you want high voltage battery, check your legislation. In UK max is 50V as far as I remember (but not 100% sure). In Austria it might be similar.

 

[biphaeboh]

You're mixing degrees with percent.

Checking the terrain in your area, I couldn’t find any hills a direct drive couldn’t climb. And no street close to a 47% grade. If it were that steep then regen would be a must, just to offset the brake cost. Without regen I’m now spending about $100 a year on pads (regen is “worth” $100 a year for me, and I’m about to change out the rotors), where it was zero when I had it,
If it weren’t for your 250w limitation, I think a direct drive would be the preferred motor, since speed/timeliness is how you earn your tips, and a direct drive will climb fast rather than slow.
With the 250W limitation, I think a small geared hub, no PAS, and a button instead of a throttle. 250W isn’t enough to mess around with a throttle, so a button (full throttle) would be easier to conceal and simpler.

People often confuse degrees and per cent grade. Plus the steepness of hills is often exaggerated. I was riding last week with some friends in Montana on some paved back roads.. My friend told me the steepest hill was 30 degrees. That is a black diamond ski run and Ken is a skier. The hill was not that steep at all, not 30%, maybe 12 or 15%.
Railway grades are usually less than 3 degrees. As a bicycle tourist, its hard to ride a loaded non electric bike up a 15% grade.

 

[Chalo]

For the motor regen is a totally normal working mode. The torque vector is just pointing in the opposite direction. There is nothing magic or mystic with regen. It's just four quadrant operation.

You are correct. You can use motors to apply torque opposite to the direction of travel. But there are two issues with using a motor for braking:

1) Reversing torque loosens fasteners and closely fitted joints. Fixed gear bikes do this too, when nincompoops decide to use the pedals to slow down instead of using brakes. There are engineering solutions for this problem, but they complicate manufacturing and servicing, increase cost, decrease standardization.

2) They're not good at braking. Compared to, you know, brakes--they lack sensitivity, power, or most often both. None have anything like the force feedback that you get from actual brakes.

I reiterate that regen creates more problems than it addresses. Not worth it. Use a few percent more battery capacity if you need a few percent more range; that has side benefits instead of trade-offs.

 

[stancecoke]

But there are two issues with using a motor for braking

Is that your own experience?!
My experience: It's working flawlessly in my daily commuting for several years now.
BionX IGH3 motor with a Lishui controller, EU legal setup with 25kph. In a flat area you can't harvest many watt hours, that's true, but in a hilly area a range increase of up to 20% is possible.
There are many reports and measurements in the german forum.
@justin_le is a big fan of regen also and reports about it since 2008
For me, the biggest advantage of direct drives is that they are absolutely silent. I gladly accept the indestructibility and the possibility of recuperation as a free bonus

 

[E-HP]

You are correct. You can use motors to apply torque opposite to the direction of travel. But there are two issues with using a motor for braking:

1) Reversing torque loosens fasteners and closely fitted joints. Fixed gear bikes do this too, when nincompoops decide to use the pedals to slow down instead of using brakes. There are engineering solutions for this problem, but they complicate manufacturing and servicing, increase cost, decrease standardization.

2) They're not good at braking. Compared to, you know, brakes--they lack sensitivity, power, or most often both. None have anything like the force feedback that you get from actual brakes.

I reiterate that regen creates more problems than it addresses. Not worth it. Use a few percent more battery capacity if you need a few percent more range; that has side benefits instead of trade-offs.

You should qualify that it's as flat as a pancake where you live, so not much advantage for regen. Looking at Austin, it looks like the steepest parts are measured in feet, or maybe a block or two long at most, so I agree, not much advantage for regen or braking. How long do your brake pads last? More than two months?

 

[Chalo]

Without regen I’m now spending about $100 a year on pads (regen is “worth” $100 a year for me, and I’m about to change out the rotors), where it was zero when I had it,

Your rotors are too small, then. Big rotors (the ones your tires mount on) make brakes much cheaper and easier to maintain, quieter, and longer wearing.

For what it's worth, my first modern disc brake (Hayes HMX-1) burned its stock pads right down to the backings in less than 20 miles of hilly city riding-- two round trips from home. I replaced them with EBC Gold HH+ metallic pads and got 11 years of service from those before they became too thin to adjust effectively. So maybe you could reduce your parts cost and maintenance schedule by trying different pads.

 

[E-HP]

but in a hilly area a range increase of up to 20% is possible.

This is what I've seen. I can get the greatest range by using the hills to my advantage. By taking the right routes while climbing then descending, I end up going a lot further than riding on flat ground. I may try an experiment, without regen, to see if I can get further just using the hills and choosing the right routes, since I think it's a big component.

 

[E-HP]

Your rotors are too small, then. Big rotors (the ones your tires mount on) make brakes much cheaper and easier to maintain, quieter, and longer wearing.

For what it's worth, my first modern disc brake (Hayes HMX-1) burned its stock pads right down to the backings in less than 20 miles of hilly city riding-- two round trips from home. I replaced them with EBC Gold HH+ metallic pads and got 11 years of service from those before they became too thin to adjust effectively. So maybe you could reduce your parts cost and maintenance schedule by trying different pads.

I tried the pads you recommended before and all I did was spend more money. My BB7 pads looked new when I retired them when using regen and they were cheap organic. I'm now just getting cheap semi metallic in bulk, since they last almost as long as the sintered, but a lot less irritating with respect to noise.

 

[Chalo]

You should qualify that it's as flat as a pancake where you live, so not much advantage for regen. Looking at Austin, it looks like the steepest parts are measured in feet, or maybe a block or two long at most, so I agree, not much advantage for regen or braking.

Austin has mostly gentle slopes, with plenty of exceptions. There's slightly more total vertical relief here than in Seattle for instance. I'm recently relocated to the old part of town that was reserved for black folks, because it was hilly and marshy in spots, which were disadvantages in horse-drawn days.

Here's a cross town section that goes pretty much from bottom to top:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/4fxeErCSXm7tAir

 

[rudivb]

I replaced them with EBC Gold HH+ metallic pads and got 11 years of service from those before they became too thin to adjust effectively. So maybe you could reduce your parts cost and maintenance schedule by trying different pads.

I've done 40000km in just 3.5 years with constant stop and go city riding with speeds going up to 55kmph. No way I'm ever getting 11 years out of pads even if they were sprinkled with angel dust. I've tried sintered pads, but they also lasted only maybe 700km.

I might try your "EBC Gold HH+", but I'm scared to waste money on expensive pads as they never seem to last very long.