Extreme range e-bike?

ADVJake

ADVJake

1 µW
Joined
Dec 20, 2011
Messages
4
Hi all,

I think about this sort of thing alot and struggle to find people who have done it.

Such as an E-bike capable of 80KMH cruise, with enough batteries for 150-200 miles. That would probably require a trailer, correct?

For the trips into areas with no electricity, i started looking at foldable solar panels. How long would it take for a 140W panel @ 24V to fully charge 200 mile of battery?

something like this: http://www.energymatters.com.au/folding-140watt-24volt-solar-panel-with-reg-wiring-kit-p-820.html

Cheers!
 
150 mile range at 50mph would require a 5000W motor and about 100ah of 160v battery on a standard bike. On a recumbent with good aerodynamics, you could probably do it with less than half that. Cut your speed to 30mph and 100v 70ah will get you there with a standard motor. Cut it to 20mph and 100V 35ah will do it. I'd love a recumbent trike with excellent aerodynamics.
 
That's pretty far into the corner of the "bike" envelope. Beginning with the legal issue of course. In the USA at least, the bike would be illegally fast everywhere. I'd say more of a job for a motorcylce size vehicle.

Since you talk kph, you obviously aren't here though. Where you at?

There was a thread quite some time back about solar power for a bike to ride in Africa. We were discussing much slower speeds on rough dirt roads. Most of the folks in the discussion agreed that it would take quite a bit of panels to charge a bike with a couple kwh of battery daily. So a lot of how to build the trailer was being discussed.

You pulled trailers with bikes at 80 kph before?

Do the math on the solar panel size. Look up the daily average insolation for your area. Then make the adjustment for the season. Here where I live, in solar panel heaven its still only 6 hours a day, maybe to 9 hours in summer. So here, if I kept the panel facing the sun all day in summer, I could expect to gather about 1260 kwh. So figure if you were really lucky you might actually store about 1000 kwh in a battery. That would get you about 50 miles at 20 mph max on a not very areodynamic bike. Likely more like 30 miles towing a heavy trailer.

I can't picture a bike towing enough panels to haul ass around. But if it was a stationary set up you could return to, like a base camp, you could do a lot of riding and solar charge.
 
ADVJake said:
Hi all,...an E-bike capable of 80KMH cruise, with enough batteries for 150-200 miles. ...
Click to expand...
Hello, welcome to the forum. What you have described is a motorcycle. If you tried to build that from bicycle parts, it wouldn't likely hold up for more than one or two rides of that distance.

There is a reason why a moped ment to go 45kph weighs 100kg. Its not because the motor is heavy, its because every part of the bike needs to be strong enough to withstand the forces and stress of 45kph. a motorcycle ment to go 80 will be even stronger, and heavier.
Its easy enough to make a bike do 80kph, but it won't be able to sustain it

ADVJake said:
For the trips into areas with no electricity, i started looking at foldable solar panels. How long would it take for a 140W panel @ 24V to fully charge 200 mile of battery?
Cheers!
Click to expand...

your "bike" setup will need about 20,000 watts of battery to do that kind of speed and distance. so a 140w solar panal could recharge it in 143 hours of direct sunlight. Since the sun is realy only usable for chargin around 10 hours a day, and the average output of a 140w pannel over the ccourse of the day is around 50%, then you'll need 28 days to recharge it once.
 
How about a bike with the possibility of 32kph and 230km?
(a more realistic endeavor)

Sure.. 36v 60Ah battery should do it!
 
50 kph, on the other hand, is quite doable. You'd get about 30 k from a typical ebike battery, such as a 36v 20 ah lifepo4. So at that speed, simple math tells you how many batteries it would take to extend range. Then there is the ass to consider, anything much over 100 k per day will take a butt that is used to such abuse, proper shorts, use of a lube, etc.

My approach to a long range bike was this. (sorry can only think in kph so long) 30 pound battery weight max, so 36v 40 ah of lifepo4 ( about 1500wh) 27 mph top speed, about 40 miles of range at that speed. Ride 3 hours, stop 3 hours to charge at lunch, ride 3 more hours. About 80 mile range, extendable to 100 by riding 25 mph or less. Even out here in the wester deserts, you can usually find a plug every 40-70 miles. The range would stretch to 70 if it needed to, by slowing to 15 mph.
 
You could also go Chevy's idea of an electric vehicle -

Full electric drive, with a backup generator to charge as you go.

But I agree with most people here - Going 80km/h on a pushbike is insanity incarnate. You even look at the 50cc Honda Cubs. Their official top speed is 80km/h. Their tyres are much wider than even mountain bike tyres, the frame is stiff, the majority of the weight is between the two wheels and where the rider sits. It's truly designed to be a more balanced, strong, bike than converting any push bike.
 
sangesf said:
How about a bike with the possibility of 32kph and 230km?
(a more realistic endeavor)

Sure.. 36v 60Ah battery should do it!
Click to expand...

The best realistic i can say is 210km at 32km/h average acheived with 432 makita cells in 4 individual serie battery packs.

I did that with my mongoose ( 2008) http://evalbum.com/1947

and... it was also able to do 47MPH( speed demonstration) and to haul a schoolbus ( torque demonstration)

I have dreamed about it between 2007 when i discovered the E-S and 2008 when i decided to build it!

Doc
 
Sunder said:
....But I agree with most people here - Going 80km/h on a pushbike is insanity incarnate. You even look at the 50cc Honda Cubs. Their official top speed is 80km/h. Their tyres are much wider than even mountain bike tyres, the frame is stiff, the majority of the weight is between the two wheels and where the rider sits. It's truly designed to be a more balanced, strong, bike than converting any push bike.
Click to expand...
While this may be true of most Ebikes that people build here, it is not difficult to beat the high speed handling of a Cub with a good DH bike. I have the experience of both to compare, and the Cub is way behind for handling, braking, and suspension quality. The stiffness of a modern DH racer has nothing to envy to the Cub, most of them can clear 3 in tires, and ride in the dirt the speed that a Cub can barely handle on the street.

The point here, is not if it is feasable to build an Ebike that can ride good and safe at that speed, it is the range that is too much to ask. It wont be a good and practical ride if it can. If you have to ride 50 Mph for 200 miles, you should look at motorcycles.
 
Not going to beat the dead horse, but I can't agree more with the idea that suits your desire best is a hybrid, not in the traditional sense, but the Chevy Volt kind.

Just think of it this way, realistically, oil based fuel is the result of many years of solar energy fueling plants eaten by animals that then decay and become a liquid, (Oil) and in that sense, qualifies as the best known "fuel cell" yet discovered.

Forget the idea that today's tech in solar will get you anywhere near that speed, get a small generator of some sort, some ultra capacitors or non-memory forming batteries (avoid NiCd since they don't like shallow charges) to act as the buffer between generator and electric motor, and your set!

A friend of mine is going to design a generator to run on natural gas since it's so easy to get, it's piped into so many homes these days, and is by far the most cost effective "alternative" fuel out there now.

Biodiesel is neat too, but you're going to have to be making it to sell to justify the time you will spend brewing it (I have a cousin who does this) so, either find a local supplier or make your own, but understand that a generator using it is going to require special considerations in design, not just any diesel motor can run biodiesel.

In truth, the only honest "extreme range E-Bike" is a hybrid with some form of ICE or exotic fuel cell that most of us cannot afford, and even if we could, would not be cost effective, but if I were extremely wealthy, I would make one anyway and try and further the development of the technology.

Just my $0.02
 
As much as i like to stay away from gasoline, li-ghtcycle is right.

The downside is that 1 cyl. motors create a crapload of vibration and that's annoying as hell. They're also pretty loud compared to electric motors. Then... you've got a tailpipe... :(
And they're actually pretty heavy/big compared to electric motors.

But for super long range, gasoline kicks the crap out of even the best lithium battery. It's got something like 50 times the energy density. Over a 50 mile range when lithium on an eBike starts to eat up all available space on the bike ( unless you're strapping batteries to the sides of the frame suicide bomber style ), then gas starts making sense, the more distance you are looking for.
 
Carrying a 1000w generator is definitely possible. I just didn't have any need to, since the very longest distance between two plugs I could find In NM is only about 70 miles. So I could just carry much lighter batteries. If I need to charge in a place with no plug, like the racetrack pits, I can and do carry a generator( by car) to the place I need power.

Everything you want is possible one item at a time. Solar charge, 80kph, long range. It's just toting them all at 80kph for very far that gets to be a problem.

Slower travel with the trailer, then 80 kph travel once at a location where you can leave the trailer seems to me to be the best compromise.
 
dogman said:
Carrying a 1000w generator is definitely possible. I just didn't have any need to, since the very longest distance between two plugs I could find In NM is only about 70 miles. So I could just carry much lighter batteries. If I need to charge in a place with no plug, like the racetrack pits, I can and do carry a generator( by car) to the place I need power.

Everything you want is possible one item at a time. Solar charge, 80kph, long range. It's just toting them all at 80kph for very far that gets to be a problem.

Slower travel with the trailer, then 80 kph travel once at a location where you can leave the trailer seems to me to be the best compromise.
Click to expand...

I have considered the long distance "Extreme Range" Ebike for some time.
I wanted it as a camping rig.
Ride as far as I can. Recharge/have lunch.
Ride as far as I can. Camp. Recharge.
Do it again tomorrow. :mrgreen:
That was the dream.
What Dogman suggests is possible,
but I enjoy the independence of having a small genny.
Around here, finding a sympathetic plug, it hard to come by.
Especially as electricity rates continue to rise.
Because I'm currently $ limited, I can only dream.
Here is my dream.

Firstly slow down. :oops:
80kmh/50mph is fast on a bicycle.
Pushing it on a bike towing around 200lbs.
Minimum weight it would take to get the OP's distance requirement.
64kmh/40mph
Is still plenty fast. and will greatly reduce your amp draw. Aero drag.
Allowing longer travel times/distances.
My current project
Standard Sla installed.JPG.
Towing this badboi
http://surlybikes.com/bikes/bill_trailer
Surly Trailer Bill (long bed) = 63 x 24" (1608 x 610mm)
Maximum tongue load 50 lb (22.7kg)
Maximum total load 300 lb (136kg)
Sweet pivoting mount.
Trailer Bill.jpg
This "only" 47lbs generator ridin' between the rear wheels.$1500cdn from Honda dealers.
2000 watt Inverter Gen. Plenty to run a couple of chargers/packs while on the road.
eu2000icm_camouflage_Honda.png
Then 4 x 24s3p 8ah Zippy packs
1 pack in the bike running 88.8v24ah @ 20-40amps cont.
3 packs charged ready to go, or charging while riding.
Distance would be limited to the strength of ones taint.
6s1p 8ah Zippy.jpg
Thats 48 packs @ $88 =4224 :shock: + shipping
130 lbs of LiPo :twisted:
That may take awhile to ship :roll:
A motor upgrade would be mandatory.
Scooter motor hope you can handle,
The Motivator.jpg
what like, 2000w cont. to tow 250pounds @ 60kmh?
How do you think the Hs3540 would fair @ 2k or more cont.?

A just a dream for now :wink:
 
FWIW, I would never want to be towing a trailer at those speeds. I'd much rather build a vehicle from scratch around the idea of going that far (and/or that fast) with that kind of weight.

Realistically, a generator to charge the batteries if you had to have electric for some reason would be the best option. But if you are going to use ICE anyway, I'd just dump the whole electric option and use a regular ICE vehicle (albeit I'd have to custom-build one for my preferences). It'd be much smaller and lighter, and way cheaper.


But if I were to do it all-electric, and had the budget for it, and could actually obtain the batteries I want, I'd get either A123 or EIG or LG or one of the other large-format pouch cells for the packs. They'd be built into the frame, along with a fast charger(s) with the option for either 220VAC 2 or 3 phase, or 110VAC single-phase, so I could charge either opportunity wherever I stop just a little bit, or full-out fast charge anywhere the higher-capacity outlets exist. Probably woudl build a cord reel into it with at least a 10-foot cord for each type of connection.


I'd be doing a chain- or belt-drive motor with probably a two-speed dog-clutch transmission like Thud's. If I was keeping it as a bicycle for <20MPH operation, then the motor would be a separate drive from the pedal chain that would be there mostly for legality since I rarely pedal anymore due to my bad knees. But if I really had to ride on freeways between cities (the only time I would need >50-100miles of range, that I can imagine at the moment anyway), I would probably not bother with a bicycle, and instead would have a registered motorcycle setup so I could keep up with traffic where necessary, just to stay safe.


It would be a pretty expensive machine, and also pretty heavy (and probably pretty long, given that I'd want it recumbent and the batteries mostly in the middle, in front of and under me).
 
amberwolf said:
But if you are going to use ICE anyway, I'd just dump the whole electric option and use a regular ICE vehicle (albeit I'd have to custom-build one for my preferences). It'd be much smaller and lighter, and way cheaper.
Click to expand...
+1, +2, +3!!!

I would carry the tiny EU1000i Honda generator if I owned an all electric car, just so I don't get stranded. But a generator on a bicycle? Not a chance. I would ride a 50cc motorcycle.
 
The more I think about it the more I like it.
Personally I wouldn't travel much faster than 50kmh/31mph avg.
Traveling paved roads. To a campsite.
The trailer acts as a basecamp.
Camping gear, extra batteries, charge solution, generator, stay behind.
While you ride around on a pack or two. Exploring new terrain.
Generators can be very handy for various purposes.
@47lbs Range extension being one possibility.
There are lighter units, but this is a quality, 2000w per hour. Tool.
My favorite campground is about 220km away
http://maps.google.ca/maps?oe=utf-8...code_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q9w8wAA
Bruce Peninsula National Park.
Or within it, a place called Cypress Lake.
Georgian Bay/Canadian Shield at it's best.
I could do that in a comfortable 10-12hour day.
Stunning views all the way there.
80kmh roads and or farm roads are possible, cyclist are allowed on the parts that they have no choice.
Alas I should stop dreaming for I am broke. :roll:
 
awesome info here guys thanks heaps.

What if the e-bike was capable of 80KMH speeds with alot of acceleration but i could cruise at 60KMH for range?

Not so much the top speed i'm after, rather the acceleration to keep up with off-road motorcycles in the forests, with at least a 100 mile range for those rides.

I want the shock factor of showing up to my off-road rides with an electric bike and keep up. which i certainly think is possible, but the range is the difficulty.
 
Ive looked at zero motorcycles but they are far too big & heavy.
I'm looking at using a DH bike frame. Even 60 miles range would be OK with lots of heavy throttle use for those rides with off-road motorcycles.
But i want the extreme range for remote touring, and cruise at 60KMH or something with a trailer with extra batteries or the generator idea is good.
 
ADVJake said:
Ive looked at zero motorcycles but they are far too big & heavy.
I'm looking at using a DH bike frame. Even 60 miles range would be OK with lots of heavy throttle use for those rides with off-road motorcycles.
But i want the extreme range for remote touring, and cruise at 60KMH or something with a trailer with extra batteries or the generator idea is good.
Click to expand...
You are right, I don't like the Zero either.

60 miles is more reasonable, but it is the limit of good handling that you can build on a DH frame. In fact, the best is more like 40 miles range, with well placed Lipo batteries. You could do better with an RC setup, if you can live with the noise.

Pulling a trailer is PITA, literally.
 
To get extreme range you need to carry a lot of battery.

When carrying a lot of battery the weight goes up, and requires more strength and room in the frame, and the weight of the frame goes up.

To maintain good performance especially at low speeds and steep climbs the motor power and dissipation capability needs go up.

To power this larger motor and move this greater weight even more battery is required.

When you combine these factors and solve the problem the result is something pretty much exactly like a zero motorcycle.

Whether you like it or not, the solution to the requirements you present is NOT a bicycle.

It is very close to the same as a zero motorcycle which is a system optimized for nearly exactly the stated requirements.

A bicycle can temporarily have great speed, but it then won't have a great range at this speed.

It can have good range, but not at high speed.

It can have good power, but if you use it much the range will suffer.

If you strap a lot of batteries on for great range the acceleration, handling and climbing capability will suffer.

Towing a trailer is a significant drag on acceleration, range and handling. Towing a trailer safely with a bicycle is difficult.
 
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