Florescent bulbs suck, sorta.

D

deronmoped

10 kW
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
706
Is everyone buying this dribble on florescent bulbs.

I mean they have their place like everything else, but the crap that some people are putting out about them is, you know, crap. Sure they come along way, but to try to force them to totally replace the incandescent bulb is just stupid.

So here in California they have what is called "title 24", supposed energy saving codes that you have to follow. Certain areas in the house have to be florescent. My job as a electrician now is to follow this code and then after the inspector is gone tear the junk out and put in what the customer wanted in the first place. Wow that just saved a lot of energy.

What about the pro-ported energy savings? Sure their energy savings might pay for the extra cost of them in the long run, but this is not true in every case. Closet lights, attic crawl space lights... that are in areas that get used infrequently are better served by a cheap ten cent bulb.

What about the cost to you of recycling them. You know it is illegal to throw them away in some areas, right, and you would never throw them in the trash because you want to save the environment, now would you? So what do you do, save the dead ones in a box in the kitchen cabinet till you have enough of them to make it worthwhile to go find a place to recycle them? Wait till there is a neighborhood recycle event and hope you remember.

I expect to see all the light manufactures to look for loop holes and probably even drop the Edison base fixtures when they ban the incandescent. Gone will be all the fixtures that used the florescent screw in bulbs, now the market will consist of a million different stupid bulbs that do not fall under the "energy saving laws". Right now there are already a slew of bulbs that makes it impossible for anyone to carry the replacement on their truck. "Lady you are going to have to order that bulb, might take a few days to get here".

Deron.
 
The fluoerecent lamp in an invention of the year 1900.
http://tinyurl.com/kkbgjh
It is a mercury vapour, high voltage, arc lamp.

What made it practical: in later years, rare earth phosphors dusted the inside of the glass tube,
phosphors mixed in various and sundry 'recipes' for an overall colour; this phosphor mix, same as on old CRT tube-faces,
emitting its own spectrum of light colours when excited by the bombardment of excited, mercury ions.

But, it is a POISONOUS-when-glass-smashed, mercury vapour that glows/activatesthe phosphours to light up;
without the phosphor, the fluorescent lamp emits but greenish blue light, and ghastly in tone, and, therefore, is no good source of light.

On the plus side, tubular fluorescent lamps are the most lumen/Watt efficient of all, including of today's LED lamps.
This efficiency ratio will change in time, LEDs are getting better, and are the useful type for "spot" applications, or flood, depending on the design,
but for now, tubular fluorescents still rule, as they have since the nineteen thirties.

PROBLEM: all fluorescent lamps contain a small-ish amount of mercury, most of which is slowly consumed (amalgamated, inactivated) during the life of the lamp.

Fact: CFLs are curly-cue make-do, imitations of goblular incandescent lamps.
They contain mercury. They often die premature deaths, and, if the glass is broken by accident (fallen desk lamp?),
put mercury tainted phosphor dust into your home;
can't be cleaned up. Mercury becomes part of your body, forever.

How many CFL's really live their advertised life spans, anyway?
I know that I've crashed and broken many of these lamps, which I use in shop lights, like my "medusa" head fugly photo and work light torchier.

Efficiency of the CFL? screwed to the garage ceiling, old porcelain Edison based socket, is a "50W (150W incandescent equivalent) CFL.
CFL, in this size and type, even that ""150" giant type, does not make -anywhere near the light output of an old style tubular fluorescent, of say, 75W consumption.
And, even if the CFL lives ten thousand hours...a specious lie in most cases...it gets trashed eventually, not "recycled, and it still
contains a modicum of mercury: the most life-toxic, common heavy metal; a neurotoxin to all of life.

STUPID lawmakers are trading one devil (the power wasting incandescent, for the POISONOUS, usually shoddy, CFL) : for another DEVIL, much worse!`

TUBULAR bulbs, and I recently installed a $55, eight foot, T-12 type fixture in the shop, is a boon: consumes 160 Watts or so,
but the light (I chose 'daylight' phosphor lamps) is brilliant and lets me work on bikes at night in the shop, without fussing with portable CFL lamps,
which, invariably, I kick over and POP: shards of mercury laden glass, all over the place.

This world-wide shift from the inefficient, but environmentally friendly, incandescent, to CFL is something of a boondoggle.
I hope for the day when (phosphor-doped LED lamps can replace CFLs, economically. CFLs are evil, bottom line:

so much of their lumen output is wasted, shooting light BACK INTO its own coils of glass.

Well, they are still better than incandescents, for the much higher lumen/watt efficiency.
But, the curly-cue CFL is a kluge, a make-do. I hope that they go obsolete very soon.
Mercury is bad stuff. It damages your brain in ways you might not even notice.
And the damage is irreparable....

my thoughts, not perfect. I like very much the newly fitted eight foot long twin fluorescent with reflector.
TONS of good light: THE most efficient light source, of good CRI (LED lamps/arrays still offer only a relatively poor CRI, halogen incandescent being the "best", nearly).

hth,
r.
 
parking space for addressing some of the issues raised in the post number one.

Point, to be elaborated upon later: the Edison Base common though so much of the world, will not be fully obsoleted in our lifetimes.
(reid, note to self: investigate the time-lines, and cite bulb-base options of today, such as pin-base mini-halogens.

There is nothing to fear but fear itself of the TOXIC curly-cue, in particular, CFL of today, that often fails in just a few hours.
And then does it get "recycled? NO, it goes into the landfills, each busted-glass CFL, ripe with a minute amount of mercury to go into the landfill and groundwater forever.

Bottom line: the CFL is a boondoggle. Tubular fluorescents willl remain the de-facto standard for lumen efficiency, if not "kool" appearance,
for decades to come.
T-(tubular) fluorescents, just as in the original tubular of 1900, are "line sources" of line, usually, instead of point sources.

Each type of light (point, flood) has its reasons for being.

Don't worry, really, about the mercury, short term? But...it's best not to break a fluorescent bulb, old or new, in your home or in the trash pile.
CFLs are particularly delicate, easy to fumble, and crash to the floor. Now you have mercury, forever, in your dwelling place, if and when that happens.

Right?

MERCURY TOXICITY
http://tinyurl.com/m8etm8
 
Home depot will take your dead CFLs and dispose of them properly. (Try getting rid of your other home-toxics (responsibly) as easily.)

Here is a CFL-Incan cost comparison:


LEDs are now available for home use. Most suck, but some are quite good. They cost much more, but last >15,000 hrs. Lm/W is comparable or better than CFL, depending on make.
 
I really like my CFL bulbs. Been using them for 15 years. Saves me lots of money. Have broken only one in fifteen years.
I think the light can be better than incandescant if you buy good bulbs. I recyle the old ones when they get weak, they go into a container that one got sold in, and i happen to go by the recycling place every week.

They keep my house cooler in the summer, and, I dont have to worry about turning lights off all the time. People are amazed at my low electric bill. CFL's save lots of bad stuff going into the environment from excess energy being generated. I have converted Churches and other peoples houses. We participate in energy shows that help folk understand the efficiency gains and how to select the CFL bulbs they would like.

OK all that stuff having been said. IT IS A PERSONAL CHOICE!! JUST LIKE EBIKES! What is with forcing people to do this?

There is all kinds of ways to save energy and money on lighting; motion detectors, timers, LED"s, and dont forget natural lighting. And some elderly people are really irritated by CFL's, as are people that get seizures. Some folks like the simplicity of incandesants and would prefer other energy saving techniques. We tell folks not to use CFL's in places that the light is on less than 8 hour a week!

We give tax rebates here, other places give nice CFL's away for free to get people started. Boy scouts in some places install CFL's free for handicap and senior househods. Many hotels use them, as do some fine art and jewelry stores- What is with forcing people to use them in their homes? Some are waiting for LED's.

This aint like people dying from lung cancer and still smoking; or smoking around oxygen tanks and gasoline. I am a big CFL advocate, but it is a choice. (wait, if you are dying in just a few months and still want a smoke, thats ok too. Just dont blow smoke in my face) Pretty soon they will tell me I drink enough beer at home.

Did CFL makers have a meeting with MADD? (MADD is just a way to move to total abstinence for everyone, there are better ways to save lives than making pretty blonds scared to have a glass of wine after work with her fellow wage slaves)

I am a democrat.

I have an old dark colored minivan. The paint started peeling off the roof, so I painted the roof white, myself, with rattle can paint. This has started more conversations about energy, being a DIYer, a non conformist, enegy choices, personal initiative and money saving than I could have imagined. Watch out. It may turn into a law, but, your auto dealership has to do it. Kinda spoils the idea though.

d
 
The bans on incandescents are as justified as bottle/can deposit laws; people are in willful denial about how easy it is to take stuff back to the store and keep their communities cleaner.

Assuming the CFL mercury issue is 'a wash', the energy conservation is overwhelming.

Unfortunately, people cannot always be expected to exercise common-sense in safety, conservation and other benefits that do not offer instant gratification.
 
I have some CFLs in my house, they work OK and save bucks on energy, however...
You have to get good bulbs of the right CRI (As Reid pointed out), the kind with a thick phospher so you won't see the flicker. That being said, I am looking forward to LED lights of the "warm" variety. Lumisys has a large die LED that is out, punches 2,250 lumens and lasts 50,000+ hours. Cree has the XR-G LED that puts out 132 lumens at one watt which beats the CFL very easily.
Some company out there made a "liquid cooled" lightbulb that uses 4 LEDs on a heatpipe in the center so maybe with 4 of those XR-G LEDs, it can be viable. The bulb runs at 4 watts so 520 lumens would be great! A 60 watt incan bulb punches 860 lumens so two of those 4 watters will put out more total light. I am waiting for the XR-G versions to come out with a "warmer" CRI and give them a shot. Downside is they cost $35 each but the price is going down slowly. Expensive, but 4 of them would really light up a room and with much less heat produced, save on AC bills.
As LEDs put out more lumens per watt, they produce less heat per watt. My first "big" LED was a Lumileds Luxeon that produced 18 lumens per watt back in 2002. Now they are moving to 132 lumens per watt in 2009 so I'm not complaining. An electric bike with two of the Lumisys LEDs would be great! One for a normal flood beam and the other "high beam" for throw. 2010 will be an interesting year as the LEDs from Cree and Lumisys get put into off the shelf components.
You can't use a CFL or LED as an oven light...
 
EVnewbie said:
You can't use a CFL or LED as an oven light...
Click to expand...
I think this might be quite "do-able"... I am reminded of "light pipes" that install through roof and attic to admit sunlight:
light-pipe.png


...or even just fiber optics... where the light source is removed from the area illuminated.
tks
Locc
 
Lock said:
One analysis from 2007 suggested it's about a "wash" comparing mercury from unrecycled CFL bulbs versus mercury not released where energy saved is from coal power generators:
http://www.energyrace.com/commentary/more_on_mercury_coal_and_cfls_updated/

This report from last year says mercury "production" from coal powered plants (in the USA) has actually been increasing in recent years:
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/nov2008/2008-11-21-092.asp

Pretty sure LEDs are the way to go...
tks
lLOk
Click to expand...
Catching up on this thread. Cleaning up my poor postings of last night.
Yes! Agreed! It appears that LED array-lamps are the best, ultimate solution.

Home Depot recycles CFLs? Well, that's jolly-good.
But what about the SIX of them that I smashed when I tripped-over my ugly "hydra headed" work-light torchier?
I've got a bit of a mercury problem.

Mercury: wonderful and safe as long as it's in glass:
 
[youtube]KGb-nUK41tc[/youtube]

and this demo is of my making. Wanna buy the duck? (joe penner comic tag line).
Cannot be mailed. Pick-up only. Cheap. Works.
[youtube]eEeE3YDwJpo[/youtube]
This is, in essence, not only a rectifier, but a lamp, sans the phosphor coating that would make it
virtually, with less mercury needed, a fluorescent lamp.


the very light, nearly, of the sun: emits SMOKE and CO as it, literally, burns,
and lots of white light.
[youtube]iJeJtDcHEww[/youtube]
this ca.1930 version was made to be a sun-therapy lamp.
No mercury. Not Watt-lumen efficient in small sizes like this,
but nearly equal to incandescent. This consumes about 1kW
and gives off...mucho light, plus UVA, B, C, to beat your retinas blind.
 
Now, look at the header's original title, now restored?

I ever, no :D , NOT EVER de-rack another man's tread, NOT one iota :wink:

farther out than from th' planet, Jupiter! :evil:

Cheers and a bright future to all; eat more tuna: rich in MERCURY, often :lol:


Reidums, light emitting gollum under this bridge.

:wink:

[youtube]Hi7uifnYFvQ[/youtube]
It is truly FLAME, plasmatic FLAME.
 
monster said:
CFL's rule ok. buy a house energy meter and see.
Click to expand...
Disagree, in basic principle.
TUBULAR fluorescents rule, but are fugly and are not "drop in" replacements for your old, incandescent fixtures.
Curley-cue CFLs project MOST of their light right back into their own coils! Yet, they are more lumen-efficient than incandescent.

RIGHT, true! There is no reason to have one, single CFL break in your home, ever.
But, sometimes a table lamp cord gets tripped-upon, and CRASH, the CFL may break.

-----------------
Here's my lousy, but useful, shop light. I've dumped it over twice now, busting the glass of FIVE CFLs.

Did I ever mention before than my nickname is "STUFU"? :lol:
WHY I bust CFLS on occasion. Why I am "the mad hatter" of E.S., prolly!

[youtube]Q7BF01AAgXc[/youtube]
fresh and unbroken mostly piggy-tail blubs :wink:

PS: I use the CFLs in the home, in general.
For this portable, photo-flood and work light, CFLs are ideal, nearly:
very little IR is projected by them.

IF I load that lamp with, say, 60W incandescents...then most of the "light" is IR, and so, I SWEAT IT.

----
It was for sale at usa's The Home Depot about six months ago.
Its reflectors have been cut off and its dimmer switch, is left FULL on
because this type of CFL is not dimmable without ruining the power circuitry in the lamp bases.
It is awkward, tip-able, but useful for diffuse lighting. IF it could be made shorter at will,
and IF I did not back into the thing and tip it over: a nearly ideal work light for dimming eyes.
 
I changed half the bulbs in my house to CFLs, the ones that are used the most. Saved a box of filament bulbs. I guess I will sell them on EBAY or Craigslist when they are banned from manufacture.

Fluorescents dont work well when very cold, so outdoor CFLs are called "capsule" bulbs and have a cheap plastic shell over the curly part (to help keep them warmer). These are also good for those folks who are concerned about a mercury bulb breaking inside their house, such as a babys room. They come in several sizes.

12419.jpg


Every truck stop market for 18-wheelers has 12V LEDs using a standard 12V socket for tail-lights (socket type-1157, $13).

310ePq9TWeL._SL500_AA280_.jpg
 
spinningmagnets said:
Saved a box of filament bulbs. I guess I will sell them on EBAY or Craigslist when they are banned from manufacture.
Click to expand...
You can save them for when you move and take your CFLs & LEDs with you.
 
TylerDurden said:
spinningmagnets said:
Saved a box of filament bulbs. I guess I will sell them on EBAY or Craigslist when they are banned from manufacture.
Click to expand...
You can save them for when you move and take your CFLs & LEDs with you.
Click to expand...
I saved a box of 1920s-era 2 candle power (15W) carbon filament bulbs! Still have most of 'em.
Not for sale. Use 'em in the Violano Virtuoso. MADE IN JAPAN, and when they were made, their style and type, was totally obsolete: Japan, then was using OLD USA surplussed equipment and techniques of circa 1902.

I do detrack. One track leads off to another.
Apologies to the thread starter!

AM LOOKING FORWARD in particular to new generation LED array, Edison-based lamps (they are already on the market),
that FLOOD light, like a CFL or round-type, old fashioned incandescent.

Halogens are wonderful too: I think they are THE most lumen per watt efficient, if run at over-voltage (14v instead of 12V),
but, again, no incandescent bulb is more than something like 2 percent efficient; most of their "light" is in the useless form of IR:
useless unless your little girl has a toy "E-Z BAKE" toy oven from the 'sixties. :D

Let's see some images of LED cluster bulbs, of the "Round Array" type? THOSE will bury CFLs in time, in due time.

-----
I am waaaaay out of date on me, "know whut",

which is , amateur, which is to say...to say that I...

...I do this for the show and share and joy of being alive,

for now,

r.
 
One of those odd numerical coincidences that saves a few neurons for old age is that 1eV = 12000 Kelvin = 12000 angstroms. The temperature is linear in energy, the wavelength is inverse, so 2eV =24000 K = 6000 angstroms which is around the wavelength of yellow light. To get sunlight equivalent with an incandescent filament requires duplicating the Sun's surface temperature of around 6500K, which as can be seen puts most of the radiation into the infrared and has has the same abysmal 2% efficiency of the Sun. Higher temperatures can get more efficiency, with bluer light and correspondingly shorter bulb life, and I am sure manufacturers would be happy to sell them, but consumers would certainly not be happy with the product (imagine an arc light that needed replacement every week).

On the other hand, in compact fluorescents any desired color temperature can be had through selection of phosphors, and because the plasma temperature is ~40000K the conversion to visible light is reasonably efficient, around 10%. Since they operate at >40KHz complaints about flickering would seem to have no basis.

The best efficiency possible would be direct conversion from electrons in conduction bands of ~2.5eV tailored to the desired optical wavelength. We live in exciting times, improvements are made every day and efficiency so far is around 20% for white light. Buy more LED's to stimulate research, I say!

Getting rid of incandescents is a no-brainer IMO. The mercury released by coal power plants and inhaled by everyone exceeds that from breakage or improper disposal of any number of CFLs.
 
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