Fun with a Heinzmann

[hinv]

I have an EVG 36V bike, and the stopping power is amazing. I was going to build a full suspension bike, but after getting LiPo's in this one, I am impressed enough with the stability and braking power that I may just just put a 5304 motor in front to get up to my 40mph top speed goal. The 36V Heinzmann is real torqy at low speeds, and will pull me up my drive all by itself, which is quit steep. If I then have a crystalyte for the higher speeds as a front drive, I would have the best of both worlds...except for the added weight.

Anyway, before I go to the 5304, I wanted to see how much I could get out of the Heinzmann. On 12s2p LiPo, it has quite a bit of power and brings it up to speeds of 22mph on the flats.. which is pretty good. I was warned not to put too much power through that little stock EVG controller, so I was wondering if I could bypass the EVG controller at full throttle with a relay that connects the batteries to the motor directly. This, in theory, would take the heat off the EVG controller, which would then only be used for slower speeds and starting off, and I could see what the heinzmann could do at full power. Of course, I would like to integrate the thermal cuttoff switch, but I would like to get your input.

 

[Ypedal]

it is NOT a good idea to install an X5 on the front for 40mph.... at all.

 

[hinv]

Please tell me why. I am a noob, so I appreciate warnings BEFORE I do something stupid ;^)

Thanks,
hinv

 

[blueb0ttle2]

I am running a Heinzmann on 36 Volts on a Europa (more details on my lithium noob thread). I get the same performance: 22Mph and good torque. That motor is on a very good wheel, and stops well with V brakes.
I am running low on the green stuff as a consequence of my lithium battery purchase (more details on my lithium noob thread). So I will not be putting my other Heinzmann motor in a new wheel after all. I'll wait a little, and keep it as a spare for my other bikes (more details on my lithium noob thread).
Thanks for all the suggestions. At least i have some other bikes (more details on my lithium noob thread).
BTW there are some more thoughts on Heinzmanns on my lithium noob thread.

 

[blueb0ttle2]

Putting a torquey beast like an X5 on the front is a sure way to wear out your front forks, and have the motor run away from you, resulting in your hitting the ground at a high speed, and becoming a bloody pulp.
Torquey beasts go in the back, with a torque arm.
One of the things that attracted me to Heinzmann's was the built-in torque arm. Not all motors come with that. I think you need to buy or build one if you get a Crystalite.

 

[hinv]

After looking at my ebike Heinzmann motor, I only found 2 conductors (red and black wires) coming out of my Heinzmann motor. I was hoping to find the thermal sensor wires that were mentioned, but I did not. Is there possible a thermal cutout circuit in the motor to protect it, or does my motor just not have that sensor?
I would like to push a bunch of watts through it, but I certainly don't want to burn it up. Right now, I am running it on 12S lipo, which fully charged is 50V. The controller and the motor seem to take it just fine on in garage tests(Bummer it is raining today), but it is a wee bitty stock ebike controller that doesn't look fixable.

Thanks,
hinv

 

[hinv]

Just did a test run on my ebike, and it seems that the controller is the limiting factor. Even at 50V, the motor only assisted up to around 20mph.

These measurements were taken with a Turnigy meter between the batteries and the controller.
77WattHours/1.9 miles with tough hills.
28mph max
1241.6 Watts max
27.55Vmin way lower than expected!
25.46Amax
1.593Ah (previously used .9Ah since charge before this test)
cold out, so no high temps felt on the controller.
My next step is to bypas that controller. I have to find the right relay and micro switch.

Anybody know weather this controller is a low side switcher or a high side switcher?

 

[hinv]

Just rode to work, but I forgot to reset the Turnigy power meter and odometer, so the tests below include the previous run above.
Part way through the ride, I found the performance<->economy switch and switched it to p and things got better. Maintained 20mph with pedaling up a .75mile hill!

154.1Wh, 5.96miles
35.1mph max (downhill, motor only good to about 23mph currently)
2788.3Wmax (Isn't this motor rated at 650watts?!?)
27.55Vmin (I think is bogus because that averages out to 2.25V/cell which is scary, but if it didn't get that low in performance mode, it is probably an anomaly. I will clear it for my way back home, which should be on full charge)
62.66Amax (more than twice as much
3.263Ah (which calculates out to 9.13miles for 50% DOD on my 10AH pack after testing with 16s controller bypass, it should be enough)

I am pleased, but not completely satisfied. I need to do a controller bypass relay and 16s lipo. Hopefully my motor can take it!

 

[hinv]

Rode home from work last night, in the dark. This required that the headlight be on, which lights my way pretty well, but sucks power. Several times my controller went beep beep beep. Dunno what that means, but it stopped when I let off the throttle a little.

127.7Wh, 4.8miles
2.678Ah
28.5mph max (downhill)
2490Wp, 52.41Ap
46.09Vmin (much less scary!)
47.4V at the end of the trip

 

[blueb0ttle2]

Congrats hinv! You seem to be getting very good performance out of that Heinzmann on 12S. Better than mine (granted, I'm using LiFePO4, not LiPo).
My 36V Heinzmann motor does not have a thermal switch either. I think only some models do. That being said, that "36 V Heinzmann" I mentioned earlier says 24 Volts 235W on the side, but I thinks that's to make the European market happy :wink:
I'm not sure what'll happen on 16S. I would think that you would need some other controller for that. A controller designed for "36" will often not have the right caps for anything above 12S.

 

[hinv]

Yes, I am pleased. I pushed 3890 watts through mine today! At least according to my Turnigy 130A Meter. I think I heard my hub slip when I did a jack rabbit start(and unintentional wheelie!). The torque on this thing is incredible!
Time to get that hub epoxied and get my other ebike(24v) going for the wife.
For 16s, I was planning on bypassing the controller with a hefty relay that would be triggered by a microswitch behind the thumb throttle. Once engaged, I suspect it would boost like switching from E to P mode.
I was planning to use the 3rd schematic down here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=278
Anybody know where I can waterproof connector like the motor has on it now? I really don't want to hack into those wires, just want to insert another connector.

 

[hinv]

I was going to epoxy my hub today, but after looking at it, I don't know if it will work. I forgot about the freewheel being in there an I just mistakenly remembered the gear press fitted to the hub, not the much smaller inner diameter of the freewheel being press fitted to the aluminum hub. So, I don't know if there is enough surface area for the epoxy to really work. What have you guys done to remedy the hub slippage problem?

 

[Ypedal]

I was going to epoxy my hub today, but after looking at it, I don't know if it will work. I forgot about the freewheel being in there an I just mistakenly remembered the gear press fitted to the hub, not the much smaller inner diameter of the freewheel being press fitted to the aluminum hub. So, I don't know if there is enough surface area for the epoxy to really work. What have you guys done to remedy the hub slippage problem?

limit them to 500w lol..

 

[passpato]

To reply to all with what I now know about the Heinzmann
The Thermistor is NOT a switch it is a resistor that increases resistance as it gets hot. In the genuine Heinzmann controller it cuts current to the motor so that it never overheats. The motor has a steep heat up rate so the Thermistor can be used as an overheat device by wiring it to your throttle to cut power when its resistance reaches 100%. It can only handle signal currents and low voltage (5or 6 volts)
I use a 4qd controller with the potentiometer throttle wired through the Thermistor. It cuts throttle signal when the thermistor is blocked by resistance.The maximum temperature in the motor should not exceed 150 degrees c to protect the motor and the brush springs but mine probably exceeds this breifly using this system.
All motors have a thermistor. New 2 wire motors have the 2 wires thermistor buried in the loom just under the new connector.Cut off the plug to find them.

You can use a cheap thermometer wired to the thermistor to measure motor internal temps. The cheap reptile/greenhouse thermometer on ebay operates in the same field using a a similar thermistor to the one in the Heinzmann and gives accurate temperature measurement.
You can over volt but not over amp a Heinzmann for very long. The stated amps are to protect the insulation on the motors windings. They are coated in plastic and if they get too hot the plastic breaks off and your motor will short.
The Heinzmann has very powerfull magnets inside it and it is difficultbut not Imnpossible to dismantle.Although I have yet to find out how to get the rear gear off and remove the armature.
Motror Parts are not available from Heinzmann but new brushes have been privately made and thermistors can be found. The brushes last for ever really, as the voltage and rpm is low ( think about a washing machine at 240v 1000+ rpm)
The motors with nylon gears wear the gears out after about 8000/10,000 miles but can be replaced from Heinzmann.Motors with Metal gears have never been known to wear the gears out. Even on post delivery bikes in Germany.(metal gears are noicey)
The 4qd uni 8 controller is an excellent match for the Heinzmann (available in 36volt on request) But it needs a resistor soldered into it to limit maximum ampage.
The Heinzmann is an excellent motor and comes in many different powers to match your cycling ability and the energy you wish to use. The more you pedal the longer your battery range.

 

[DCMotorworks]

maybe I am necroing an old thread, sorry, but I just hooked up 16s lifepo4 to a 36v heinzmann 500w hub at 30 amps and rode it around a bit. It's not a build I am proud of, just threw it all on a 26" wheel steel mountain bike frame i had, battery pack on a rear rack kind of nonsense. This thing is a wheely machine. Accentuated by the battery pack weight on the back and all but holy crap. It has tried to buck me off every time I hit the throttle from a stand-still. Really just put it together for S & G. And giggles I have had (figure out what the "S" stands for ok). Nine continent 2808's on 50'ish volts don't feel like this on 24" wheels from my experience. I should probably just tone it back down to 36V but since I don't actually care about the heinzmann I might just push it farther. Like till the smoke comes out or it tosses me onto the pavement, or both. Or until the internal gears start slipping and I have something to fix?

Question: I usually just toss volts/amps at direct drive hubs. Are geared BL MAC (ish) motors extra stupid powerful and comparable torque-wise to the hienzmanns?

DC

 

[dogman dan]

Well, use a thermistor, or at least monitor the heat inside with a thermometer. I cooked off a heinzmann in about 30 min running just 1000w.

Wheelie machine allright, they really to have the torque. Too bad they bust gears and overheat so easy, or I'd still be using them for trail riding. Noisy too, but I could live with it for that kind of torque.

Good as my 2812 9c runs in the dirt at 72v 40 amps, it still doesn't want to wheelie like the heinzmann did on 36v 30 amps.

 

[Ypedal]

I recently bolted mine up with 36v of lipo, and a 40 amp clyte brushed controller.. they do fire off well off the line !!. i was surprised.. loud but a good sounding loud to me..

i expect short life at 72v

 

[blueb0ttle2]

It's been ages since I last posted.
All I can say is that the Ping battery in the Europa is still going strong.
BTW what's up with this thing?

 

[arkmundi]

Just saying it was indeed fun putting together an ebike with the 500 watt Heinzmann (and a battery pack that could manage the current draw). Then with my encounter with an idiot car driver, it wasn't fun anymore. Then with that mime excised from my brain and back in the saddle, its fun again, albeit with added precaution. Road warrior ethics rock.

 

[arkmundi]

My new MAC 10T, OSN A123 48V on Trek Shift 3 build is temporarily out of commission due to an axle spin-out and destruction of the drop-outs. Hence, for the moment, I'm back on my Gitchee with the Heinsmann 500w front hub. Problem was the battery has been sitting unused for 6 months and I had not thought through safe storage, so dead battery. 36v battery. Well, so why not throw on my 48V battery pack from the Trek, the most excellent A123 AMP20 pack? Had no idea what might happen in exceeding voltage spec, for the motor or controller. Turns out its running fine at 48V. Should anyone be interested in the bit of information.