Geared Ebikekit upgrade suggestions?

[wineboyrider]

Okay I have this Ebikekit geared front motor setup and I want a little more speed. Hmm. I have a 36v20ah Ping battery. I would rather upgrade the controller at this point than up the voltage. What kind of controllers can I use on this motor? Should I up the voltage instead? Can this controller handle 48v? I think mwkeefer answered this in his post, but I want to hear it from someone who has experience first. Can I series a Lipo battery with my Ping Lifepo4 and make a higher voltage battery? I thought about trying this as I play with lipo (boom?)

Okay ES suggestions?

 

[wineboyrider]

Pics

 

[Drunkskunk]

More speed needs more voltage. That controller is pretty small for handling more power, so a basic 6 FET Inferon type controller is needed and a 48V battery

 

[mwkeefer]

Actually the stock controller will handle 15S Lipo but when you engage HIGH speed mode, I believe the throttle is returning > 5v as the resistor network was intended for 36v but the manufacturer claims they will run at 48v nominal.

The easier alternative is to do away with the stock controller, pick up a 6-9 fet infineon and program it for around 20-22A primary current.

Then you should be able to run 36-55v nominal without mods, to go above that voltage will require new caps and perhaps new fets.

I will tell ya - stay below 35A primary and 70A phase currents on those motors, any more and you could have problems as the phase wires are a bit small... Begin at 18-20A and see how it feels, bump a tiny bit if needed until your happy!

Feel free to PM me or post back here, I haven't completed the documentation on those silver controllers which come with the kit but I have tested them at 36, 44 and 55.5v nominal - none broke anything, but again 55.5 and high mode seems to cause a cutout around 20mph - could just be an internal speed limiter function based on wheel speed (hall input) perhaps?

-Mike

 

[wineboyrider]

I was going to buy a 9c kit from ebikes.ca , but than this deal showed up and for $200 it's a good deal.

 

[69tr6r]

I picked up a front kit too and I'm really happy so far! I am still in the experimental stage, first E-bike, so I'm testing using a bunch of SLA's. I ran the motor at 48V and it was fine with the stock controller, so go for it. I gotta take some pics this weekend and post them up. Good luck!

 

[dogman dan]

Leave it alone in our climate, till winter.

 

[wineboyrider]

Leave it alone in our climate, till winter.

Took it on a long hot relatively flat ride from Tularosa to Alamogordo and back 30 plus miles on one battery charge! A 36v 20ah ping v2.5! This thing sips electricity! I don't have my turnigy meter hooked up to it yet (it's still on my cyclone)
After the 30 mile trip on 36v the motor wasn't even warm. How do you measure the heat of the motor? I love it for long trips it is very efficient compared to what the other 2 bicycles I have.

 

[wasp]

More speed needs more voltage. That controller is pretty small for handling more power, so a basic 6 FET Inferon type controller is needed and a 48V battery

not always the case because when using a infinion controller you can goto 120% throttle to get more speed without more adding more >olts

 

[mwkeefer]

On a geared motor with as much reduction as these have, the boost to top end using the Infineon over % speed settings is minimal. I see perhaps 2-3mph gained @ 26" wheel, using the same with a DD motor and you see 5-9mph boost depending on other factors like Primary and Phase Current limits.

I've been playing with a 20" rear the past 2 days on a Downtube Nova and using a 6fet lyen controller (after testing the stock unit)... Stock draw @ 16A peak vs Infineon 116 @ 29A. The top end using an 18S pack is about 31mph with 120% and 29 @ 100%... very little difference.

As a side note, the limit is an accident... I have this unit programmed for 24A primary but it lets through nearly 30, when I have time I will reprogram it as the geared hub makes a bit of "noise" at this level of current / voltage.

I also reconfigured a stock controller with new power resistors to work within the 15-18S range even with the high speed setting selected at WOT without throttle cutout... Once I have confirmed a few discharge cycles of abuse/use through the controller I will post back the exact mods I made to enable it.

-Mike

 

[wineboyrider]

Sounds to me like the answer is on it's way. Just keep me and us posted!

 

[mwkeefer]

Okay well here goes!

First and foremost... I see very little to be done with these controllers unless you are willing to solder and desolder - little in terms of upgrade that is.

It took me forever but I identified the FET used on these 6FET boards (with no linear voltage regulator I might add... seems to pull down via power resistor network then through a few Diodes to clamp various voltage for 5v MCU power and 12-15v gate {not confirmed}.

Since I toasted one unit I thought it prudent to fully dismantle one (working and document all the parts and components)..

So for the fets (be ready for dissappointment):

AOT430 are the actual FETs used x 6

Now for the intersting part:

All ratings at 25C unless noted (bullshit temperatures!)
Drain Source Voltage: 75v (seems good right?)
Gate Source Voltage: +-25v (this means the gate and source voltage must be within 25v of each other? I think - fechter, knuckles, methods??? anyone confirm this?)
Continuous Drain Current: @25C = 80A (this looks good right?)
Continuous Drain Current: @100C = 78A (not too terrible for motors such as this, if 100C can be maintained!)
Pulsed Drain Current: 200A - This seems amazing and not believeable.
Power Dissipation: @25C = 268w
Power Dissipation: @100C = 134w

Then I noted this:
VDs (V): 75V - again possibly encouraging
Id = 80A - again encouraging then... (VGs = 10v, assuming gate and source are within 10v of each other or is this for a 10V Gate and Source)
RdsOn = < 11.5mohm - AND HERE IS WHERE YOU LOOSE ME!

IRFB4110 would be:
VDs (v): 100v
ID = 180A (Silicone Limited)
ID = 120A (Package Limited)
RDS(on): 3.7 mOhm (typical)
RDS(on): 4.5 mOhm (max)

If I can confirm the gate drivers on these PCB will drive the IRFB4110 it would be a nice upgrade and has 1/3 the RDS(on) and 10kw burst ability in theory... more realistically it could deliver 2000-3000w efficiently and cooly.

Okay so next bit... Still haven't IDed the MCU working on that.

Realized the case is about 3mm longer than typical infineon and heatsink bar (aluminum) is not as thick (not sure it matters). Oddly FETs have hitemp film behind them (not the silicone junk) but when I removed the heatsink from one to disassemble... there is no thermal paste between the rear of the FET and the heatsink! Totally clean, at 36v and 16/18A I suppose it doesn't matter but... that will need to be rectified by those wishing just to upgrade the power using the stock fets and for sure if others can be substituted.

Still playing with options for the power resistor situation - I am at this moment, adding a LM317 (there was a position on the heatsink for the tab so why not!) and a better R1/R2 selection which will require a tiny drill bit or dremel press to adapt... Using this method will give us a template the Infineon already uses and which thanks to Knuckles is very well documented..

Next will be the anyvoltage Transistor Tip122 mod - should handle up to 75v max (18S at that point but efficiently).

I'm also working to gather pad data and what they expect should anyone desire to use these with other accessories.

-Mike


http://www.ic-on-line.cn/IOL/datasheet/aot430_1145085.pdf

 

[wineboyrider]

All the controller stuff is over my head? But, I am going to order some lipo soon and was wondering if I want to run 15sp I should get 2 6sp 5000mah and one 1 3sp 5000mah to build a 55.6v 5 ah pack?(I was thinking the zippy) 30c rate ? I am reviving my old grasshopper rc car and want to put some lipo in it too? So i thought about starting small buying the charger so I can charge all the lipo batteries with the same charger? Should i get a low voltage cutoff or a buzzer for each battery??

 

[dogman dan]

Re the motor temps, I use indoor outdoor thermometers from wallmart or whatever. About ten bucks, they are in the auto section. Take the outdoor sensor and tape it to the axle stub, and tape some kind of foam insulation over it. Now you ge an idea of the axle temps outside the hub, and add 30F to the reading in summer, 40 F to it in winter or if it's wet. 180 is the max you want inside, so stop if you see 140 or so on the readout.

Cruising on flat ground, even in hot weather, that motor was drawing no more than 400 watts, maybe less. So no way it would get all that hot. Climbing a hill is another story. So you overvolt it to 1500-2000 watts and you will get hot a lot faster. So put a high volt high amp controller on it and zip up to Apache Summit and you could melt the motor easy. I set out to melt some motors this summer and the gearmotor went pretty quick climbing San Augustine pass in 105F weather. I just don't think these small gearmotors are designed with enough abilty to shed heat for hot rodding. They are going to melt.

But 48v 20 amps might be possible if you are carefull on the hills. If you want fast and cheap, you might look at the Aotema kits from High Tech bikes for your next motor. 48v gets you 30 mph with no modifications.

You might look at these for lipo. they are in stock.http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6502&Product_Name=ZIPPY_Flightmax_4400mAh_5S1P_15C

 

[wineboyrider]

Thanks Dogman. Both my v2.5 pings are out of commission I think I fried the BMS board on the one yesterday as I accidentally put the positive and negative leads and heard a loud pop and voltage and smoke coming out of my BMS? I checked the voltage of the pack and it is fine? Then I tried to charge it through the BMS...no luck!? I know ping can and will send me replacements if I ask, but is there another BMS out there that will work?

 

[wineboyrider]

Well officially fried my orginal controller today. I had 2 sla's in series 24v and one 18v nicd for around 60v . Worked great for a little while and then ppoooooof! So I about the infineon controller suggestions? the 9fet or 12 fet? I really don't want to go super fast and probably will never go over 48v..??? What about the throttle will I be able to use it on a new infineon? I was looking at lyens controllers...coool. :|

 

[dogman dan]

OMG, you're worse that I am with stuff! The infinieon controllers used with the Ebikekit 9c motors takes 48v fine. I bet you have something else with the gearmotor eh? Maybe a 36v controller with 50v caps in it?

 

[wineboyrider]

Sucks! But, I think I want the Lyen controller as he rates his up to 72v. I probably won't go beyond 60v anyways. 25 is fast enough.