GM Volt Rules!!!

[TPA]

.....Or not.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/550957/201010191855/Volt-Fraud-At-Government-Motors.htm

I'm all for an electric car, but you can't just ram it through. It needs a lot of R&D, a decent starting price, good reliability, and a stable market, which it would have if the first three things are there. Gov. subsidy is not always the answer.

 

[StudEbiker]

Uh, but their intentions were good, so everything is copacetic. They'll be lucky if they sell a dozen.....maybe a baker's dozen if they are REAL lucky. Jay Leno will buy one, but trying to find 12 other customers for that electric Edsel is going to be difficult.

 

[liveforphysics]

It's such an epic fail.

 

[neptronix]

It's such an epic fail.

I'm completely with you.

8.8kWh of 16kWh of the battery is used.. the rest is some sort of reserve? what the fffffff..

They promised ~50mpg from the range extender and only got 30-40mpg when the car runs out of electric range. I wouldn't say that's being wasteful of gas, but any economy car could pull that sort of MPG out of it's hat. And a Prius could do better.

3800+lbs and not as aerodynamic as the prius..

Drives the wheels via the engine only at certain speeds ( 70mph+ i think )... well, that's kinda silly. They told us it would not drive the wheels. Now there's extra hardware to occasionally drive the wheels just sittin' there as dead weight..

For $41k, GM could have sold us an EV that goes 125-150 miles.
But what do we get? as always. The mediocre product.

 

[neptronix]

by the way, GM helped write the tax credit incentives! The US government still owns ~60% of GM right now.

Part of the tax credit is that 16kWh gets you the maximum federal tax break on an EV..
Funny how the Volt has 16kWh but only uses a little over half of it, eh?

Here's another thing.. the Volt is certified as a ULEV vehicle. Not SULEV.. not PZEV.. like most hybrids!

So many fishy things about this car.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I'm seriously disappointed with the way the Volt has turned out. I was hoping it would mark a turn-around amongst non-Japanese car makers by being a genuine step forward in electric vehicle technology, which might, in turn, push other manufacturers to invest more in EV technology to compete. Instead it seems to be a backward step, at least as far as fuel consumption is concerned.

How do they expect the Volt to sell against the stiff, well-established, hybrid competition from the likes of Honda and Toyota, for example? Come to that, how do they expect it to sell against some of the much better fuel consumption conventional cars?

What incentive (other than brand/national loyalty) do buyers have to go for the Volt over some of the much cheaper and more economical offerings?

I guess it's time for all the conspiracy theorists to come out with reasons for the Volt being such a bodged, poor, compromise. Personally I smell a hint of oil industry rat in amongst there somewhere - I don't believe for one minute that GM doesn't have engineering knowledge and expertise that at least matches that at Tesla, which makes you wonder why they had to make the Volt a gas guzzler. Surely they could have at least equalled the range that Tesla get, albeit with less performance, couldn't they?

BTW, they almost certainly only use a small part of the battery capacity to ensure longevity by massively increasing cycle life. Toyota (and I assume Honda) do exactly the same - you can only use a bit over half of the battery capacity in the Prius, for example.

Jeremy

 

[neptronix]

I guess it's time for all the conspiracy theorists to come out with reasons for the Volt being such a bodged, poor, compromise.

It is hard to tell whether or not it is typical GM incompetence or something malicious, IMHO

BTW, they almost certainly only use a small part of the battery capacity to ensure longevity by massively increasing cycle life. Toyota (and I assume Honda) do exactly the same - you can only use a bit over half of the battery capacity in the Prius, for example.

Keep in mind, Toyota and Honda keep the battery at about half charge as much as possible because they're using NiMH batteries, and that's the only way for them to have a good lifespan.

The Volt has a Lithium Polymer pack. I think only using half of a LiPo pack is criminally wasteful. Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't think LiPo needs that kind of margin at all.

 

[liveforphysics]

The volt didn't fail for GM.

It got them the hundreds of millions of dollars in grants.


The volt failed for anyone who thought it was going to a good/useful product.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Keep in mind, Toyota and Honda keep the battery at about half charge as much as possible because they're using NiMH batteries, and that's the only way for them to have a good lifespan.

The Volt has a Lithium Polymer pack. I think only using half of a LiPo pack is criminally wasteful. Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't think LiPo needs that kind of margin at all.

The same applies to lithium cells. If you look back at all the crap Don Harmon was spouting forth about the thousands of cycles that his wondrous LiFePO4 cells would deliver, as proven by testing done at Sandia, some of us who took the time to delve into the Sandia test results spotted that they were only getting a cycle life up in the many thousands of cycles because they were treating them the same way that Toyota and Honda do with their hybrid packs, limiting DoD to a modest value. Running lithium packs into deep discharge (greater than about 90% of rated capacity) brings their cycle life down markedly, depending on the exact chemistry. RC type LiPo cells may have a cycle life of around 300 to 400 cycles, LiFePO4 tends to be better at around 1000 to 1500 cycles, maybe up to 2000 for really good cells. Limit DoD to 50% and the cycle life for LiFePO4 goes up to maybe 5000 to 8000 cycles plus. Restrict it further to around 30% and you can get into the tens of thousands of cycles needed by a hybrid vehicle.

My guess is that GM were assuming a daily charge regime and wanted a battery life longer than maybe 3 years or so. By restricting DoD they can probably get 8 to 10 years from the pack.

The volt didn't fail for GM.
It got them the hundreds of millions of dollars in grants.
The volt failed for anyone who thought it was going to a good/useful product.

Cynical, but true. Not only did those grants help to bail GM out of the dire state it was in, but they may also have helped bring the company a bit nearer the technological level needed to be competitive in the world vehicle market. Pity they didn't take advantage of that with the Volt. I don't know what the US car market is like, but here in the UK we're pretty much dominated by Japanese and Korean cars, with a healthy dose of German/Czech ones thrown in for good measure. GM and Ford really seem to have lost market share over the last few years, probably because their cars generally lack innovation and style and are pretty much as boring as hell.

Jeremy

 

[dogman dan]

Obamas Chevy volt eh? Oh, they didn't start working on it or get any govt money till Bush left office? Am I the only one that see's an attack ad for the election next week here?

And what's suprising about having to cut all EV manufacturers performance claims in half?

I agree though, too heavy, and not relying on the electric enough. But if they did make the battery bigger etc, then they'd just have another EV that costs as much as the Tesla. No magic wand yet that would make a 32 kwh pack cheap. They could have put a way to allow a bit deeper discharges though, like 75%.

 

[Harold in CR]

Anyone in the rest of the world see adverts on the Chevy SPARK ?? Made in India. I have checked around, and, can't actually find what powers it. Funny name for a gasoline powered car ??

 

[liveforphysics]

Anyone in the rest of the world see adverts on the Chevy SPARK ?? Made in India. I have checked around, and, can't actually find what powers it. Funny name for a gasoline powered car ??

It's always been Daewoo's try at a geo-metro. Started in 1998.

The current model is the Daewoo Matiz Creative M300

1L or 1.2L ICE engine.

Sold under these other names:

Daewoo Matiz Creative (South Korea)
Chevrolet Spark
Chevrolet Spark GT (Chile and Colombia)
Chevrolet Spark Eco Logic (Italy)
Chevrolet Beat (India)
Holden Barina Spark (Australia)

 

[bigmoose]

If I recall the stories right the Volt has a 1.4 L engine in it. 1.4L and 3800 lbs do not play well together in my estimation. GM is no Honda... lets see how long that engine lasts lugging all that steel around once you are outside the battery range.

I was born and bred on GM... about 3 years ago we inherited a 1 year old Chevy Cavalier. My daughter got her choice and picked an 8 year old Honda Civic with 120,000 miles over the Cavalier with 3,000 miles on it. Our family is all Honda now except for my GM truck for towing.

Volt = Obama's Edsel

 

[liveforphysics]

My daughter got her choice and picked an 8 year old Honda Civic with 120,000 miles over the Cavalier with 3,000 miles on it.

8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


That is a very smart choice.
You raised a wise daughter my friend.

 

[TylerDurden]

Recent/related:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/10/12/chevrolet-volt-electric-drive-propulsion-system-unveiled/

 

[number1cruncher]

I was raised on Fords. They have had their many problems, such as the Edsel, Pinto, early model Taurus. However in recent years they have really turned around. I have a 2000 Ranger that I just replaced the front brake pads for the first time since purchase. And the rear are still fine. My 2007 Escape has had not one problem. I wanted the hybrid, but the wife wanted the V6. You can guess who won .

Anyway, it really seems Ford is on the right track and will hopefully bring an all electric to the field soon. They were the first to bring a hybrid SUV, the Escape, to the American market.

Plus, being a loyal customer, I bought ~250 shares of Ford for ~$500 in October 2008. It's now worth about $3K. At this rate, Ford will have given me the money to buy the next one. 8)

Ford = NoBama!

 

[grindz145]

Going with the theme: I just read that the Leaf does 0-60mph in 7 ish seconds. The volt takes 8.8. WTF? It has 2 motors! It's nothing short of pathetic.

 

[julesa]

Yeah, its performance is probably gonna be unimpressive when running only on the engine. But if it can go 50 miles on the battery alone, then all these complaints would only apply when you don't have the opportunity to charge it. For me, that would be less than 10% of my driving time per year.

Honestly, it seems kind of silly to complain about city mileage when it hasn't been charged. How often is that really going to happen? They're building charging stations... http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20019159-54.html.

Yeah, GM has a long history of sucking, and I own a Honda and a Toyota. But I'm going to reserve judgment on the Volt until I have a chance to drive one.

 

[yopappamon]

Here's a slightly different take on the Volts drive train

http://gm-volt.com/2010/10/11/motor-trend-explains-the-volts-powertrain/

It sounds like the ICE can be decoupled from the wheels, run a generator to power the electric motor, or aide the electric motor in turning the wheels.

Looks like 3 power modes:
- Main electric motor only
- Main electric motor with generator acting as motor assist
- Main electric motor with ICE assist

 

[amberwolf]

I don't believe for one minute that GM doesn't have engineering knowledge and expertise that at least matches that at Tesla, which makes you wonder why they had to make the Volt a gas guzzler. Surely they could have at least equalled the range that Tesla get, albeit with less performance, couldn't they?

They were halfway there with the EV-1, and that was with LEAD, and with NiMH.

For $41k, GM could have sold us an EV that goes 125-150 miles.

This was nearly what the EV-1 would have had with the NiMH pack. How long ago was that?

But as LFP points out (quoted below), GM is not interested in selling *us* anything. They are only interested in selling the *government* a proposal that will net them money they can pocket. It's irrelevant if they ever produce *anything* useful.

Plus, they'll probably decide to only lease them, not sell them, then do exactly what they did with the EV-1: claim that they can't keep making parts for however long the law requires, and thus must take them all back and destroy them. Not that anyone will really care, with the Volt, like they did about the EV-1.

The volt didn't fail for GM.
It got them the hundreds of millions of dollars in grants.
The volt failed for anyone who thought it was going to a good/useful product.

^ This. ^


I wonder how much more range they'd've gotten if they took the space and weight they stuck that engine in, and filled it with batteries.

 

[DAND214]

I sure hope they don't use the same PLANETARY gears the hub motors do!
The big complaint to electric cars is, they don't need service like a ICE does.
If they sue those gears it will
Dan

 

[neptronix]

Lollers, turns out the CARB considers the Volt to put out more grams of CO per mile than the Subaru WRX STI, and they have classified it as an ULEV.

Here is some interesting data concerning the emissions of the Volt, in range extender mode:
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii-2010-prius-main-forum/64518-emission-comparison-prius-hs250h-insight-civic-hybrid-jetta-gas-tdi-wrx-sti-5.html#post1199560

 

[veloman]

My daughter got her choice and picked an 8 year old Honda Civic with 120,000 miles over the Cavalier with 3,000 miles on it.

8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


That is a very smart choice.
You raised a wise daughter my friend.

My ex-gf, who is well intentioned, but a daughter of a Detroit big wig (he's now retired), she believes that the reason American car companies don't match the Japanese with reliability and quality cars, is because.....get this:

"American's spent their money on foreign companies, neglecting and hurting the US auto manufactures, who in turn couldn't produce an equally good car."

My 97 Civic has been the best auto purchase I've ever made. It's average yearly total cost, including purchase price and accounting for current value, is now down to about $500 a year (so that's depreciation, maintenance and parts/labor). I probably wouldn't own a car anymore if this thing wasn't so economical.

BTW, my Dad who bought an '08 Mustang just lost $10k in depreciation in less than 2 years.

 

[dequinox]

Yeah I have to say I am certain this is a stunt by GM that is going to end up exactly the same way that the fiasco with the EV1 ended. *SMASH*

 

[Lessss]

The BIG American car manufacturers DO NOT WANT electric cars of ANY variety PERIOD. Ignore the propaganda.