GNG, 1000W 48V BB-drive, $400

[t0me]

I can add that the controller that's doing this weird stuff was working perfectly on the bike I took it off (where it was attached to a 48v 1000w brushless hub motor).

I can't ride it like this very well. I have to slow right down to get the speed down before braking will make the motor kick in properly.
When it does kick in its running right, but as soon as I let the throttle off completely it goes back to only giving 5% power (previously said 20% but its nowhere near that, its drawing about 0.8A max at that point - draws up to 38A at full throttle when working properly).
Applying the brake is only to offer resistance to turning the motor at low RPM when it feels that resistance something seems to change and it kicks in and gives proper throttle response until the throttle is released completely and then it goes back to only giving 5%.

Made a little video to try and demo what its doing.

 

[t0me]

More interesting stuff.

I believe its a hall/phase wire issue.
Hunting back through this thread I found a post by Denisesewa talking about settings for a Lyen controller:
HALL:
Yellow Yellow
Green Blue
Blue Green

PHASE:
Yellow Yellow
Green Blue
Blue Green

Well in the spirit of experimentation (and desperation) I tried that.

Wow!

Well that solved the throttle issue. It would accelerate from 0 throttle, but strangely, the RPM was higher than usual. A tonne higher.
I took it for a spin up and down the road. I didn't measure speed but I know its a LOT faster than usual. It pulled 43A and peak watts of 2070!!!
However, whilst the RPM and therefore top speed was much higher, the torque wasn't as high as usual.
The controller got fairly warm. The wires to the motor too. A couple of times from 0 throttle it wouldn't turn and the motor gave a bit of a whine, I manually turned the motor a little and then it started.
The motor sounded noisier than usual.

For my purposes, I'm after torque not speed. I'd rather limit myself to a bit under that, say 38A. I figure that means going to a controller that's configured for that specifically.
In the mean time though, until such a device is found and ordered and arrives (still hoping for other recommendations - Lyen recommends his 3077 9FET controller - will cost me about $125 to get it here within a couple of weeks) I want to get this controller working for me.

So, I'm fairly certain that says I have a hall/phase wire issue.
Can someone give me a quick lesson or point me at a primer on the right way for me to work out what's the right combination.
I'm assuming that red/yellow/blue are the only relevant wires and that the red and black on the hall wire block are power.
I'm also assuming that what I learn here with this controller will be relevant to any new controller I get too.

It also means that a standard 48v 1000W controller from Ebay could be a solution for some that offers up to 2000w from this motor (I may have splashed a little solder on the shunt of this controller while I had it apart the other day...)

 

[Wishes]

More interesting stuff.

I believe its a hall/phase wire issue.
Hunting back through this thread I found a post by Denisesewa talking about settings for a Lyen controller:
HALL:
Yellow Yellow
Green Blue
Blue Green

PHASE:
Yellow Yellow
Green Blue
Blue Green

Well in the spirit of experimentation (and desperation) I tried that.

Wow!

Well that solved the throttle issue. It would accelerate from 0 throttle, but strangely, the RPM was higher than usual. A tonne higher.
I took it for a spin up and down the road. I didn't measure speed but I know its a LOT faster than usual. It pulled 43A and peak watts of 2070!!!
However, whilst the RPM and therefore top speed was much higher, the torque wasn't as high as usual.
The controller got fairly warm. The wires to the motor too. A couple of times from 0 throttle it wouldn't turn and the motor gave a bit of a whine, I manually turned the motor a little and then it started.
The motor sounded noisier than usual.

For my purposes, I'm after torque not speed. I'd rather limit myself to a bit under that, say 38A. I figure that means going to a controller that's configured for that specifically.
In the mean time though, until such a device is found and ordered and arrives (still hoping for other recommendations - Lyen recommends his 3077 9FET controller - will cost me about $125 to get it here within a couple of weeks) I want to get this controller working for me.

So, I'm fairly certain that says I have a hall/phase wire issue.
Can someone give me a quick lesson or point me at a primer on the right way for me to work out what's the right combination.
I'm assuming that red/yellow/blue are the only relevant wires and that the red and black on the hall wire block are power.
I'm also assuming that what I learn here with this controller will be relevant to any new controller I get too.

It also means that a standard 48v 1000W controller from Ebay could be a solution for some that offers up to 2000w from this motor (I may have splashed a little solder on the shunt of this controller while I had it apart the other day...)

You are correct with your assumption on the HAL connector, the red and black are power and ground and only the other 3 matter. There is no magic process for finding the right HAL wire combination. Somewhere on the forums, there are instructions on the steps to follow that basically try every possible combination until you hit the right one. Keep in mind, that some wrong combinations can cause a short that has for effect of generating over current. You might see only 43 amps from the battery, but the short will deliver much more to the motor. I'm sure there are members that can explain why this happens better than I. But it does, and if you say the motor and controller is heating quickly, then likely you are not running with the right HAL combination.

If you sustain 43amps for any prolonged period you will heat the motor. It doesn't like anything current above 40 amps for anything but short bursts. I have my Lyen controller set to 38 amps max, it hits peaks of 41 amps before he limiter kicks in.

As for the torque, there is a phase current setting in the controllers that can affect that. It is why you can have 2 different controllers, with same total AMP and total Voltage but one will provide more torque on take offs. That setting is adjustable with the Lyen controllers.

I've been using the Lyen controller on this kit for some time now. It was the best upgrade I put on it. I highly recommend them.

Wish

 

[t0me]

Thanks Wish. I found the diagram (by user Accountant) for testing hall/phase combo's and will be trying that tomorrow.

What model Lyen controller do you have?
How do you adjust settings on it (do you need a cable and program?)

35-40A was what I had in mind too.

I found a circuit for testing the hall sensors too, I haven't found any info yet about the symptoms of a broken hall sensor. If I can't get a phase wire combo that works right I'll have to check them next I reckon.

 

[Denisesewa]

tOme, Have you done the resistor mod to the throttle ? I had a simular thing happen while adjusting the resistors with the stock controller, If there is too much resistance applied to the Cermet that controls the Low speed starting point the controller doesnt wont to start properly.
Might try swapping throttles just for the heck of it as well. if you were stateside I'd send you another throttle and controller.
I have purchased 2 12 FET lyen controllers which have worked perfectly , you do need a cable and computor to change parameters but Lyen will set it any way you want before he ships it. I highly recommend buying the Magura throttle as well and do the resistor mod.

 

[Wishes]

Thanks Wish. I found the diagram (by user Accountant) for testing hall/phase combo's and will be trying that tomorrow.

What model Lyen controller do you have?
How do you adjust settings on it (do you need a cable and program?)

35-40A was what I had in mind too.

I found a circuit for testing the hall sensors too, I haven't found any info yet about the symptoms of a broken hall sensor. If I can't get a phase wire combo that works right I'll have to check them next I reckon.

I used 2 different Lyen controllers but neither was for 48 volt applications. I started with 75 volts, and now i'm running on 24s, 100 volts.

As for the programming of them, it can be done 2 different ways. With a computer and a special usb adapter. I think it is 20$ option the usb adapter. The second method is with a C.A. You can change all these settings on the fly using the LCD screen and buttons. That is what I use. The second best upgrade I put on there was combining Lyen's controller with a CA. Much more pricey than a cheap ebay controller, but if you can afford it, well worth the investment.

Wishes

 

[t0me]

I did try a couple of throttles, same response from either. Both have been working on their respective setups previously. I have two working ebikes, one died so I started swapping parts to determine that its the controller that had died. So now I'm trying to get the controller from one to work on the other. I did try the suspected broken controller on the other bike too, it gave no response at all again so I'm fairly certain its dead. I have a mate who's going to let his electronics guys at work look at it, they apparently like component level diagnostics. Also, having now got the GNG to now fire up (noisily but) from 0 throttle onwards I'm hoping that means the throttle is fine. I had a look at the magura ones and will re-investigate but I've got my throttle cut down to less than a half throttle. I'd use a thumb if I thought it would fit with my gear changer (and I've got another one coming for me to experiment with) cos I get a sore wrist with the twist throttle at the moment.
I will probably re-visit the magura options when I've got this controller issue sorted.

At the end of the day I need to get a new controller to replace the broken one, but if some wire swapping will get me running I'd like to do that so I can get some riding in while waiting for the new one to arrive, and that also affects the shipping cost of getting the new one - whether I need to get fast shipping or can let it take its time getting here. The Lyen ones seem the go and I've been exchanging PM's with Edward about them.

Ahh those Cycle Analysts are pretty pricey the ones I've seen - but link to the one you've got anyway Wishes. Never know what I can convince St.Nick to let me buy myself for xmas.
100v 40A how are you keeping the rest of the bike and yourself in one piece!!!

 

[Denisesewa]

I did try a couple of throttles, same response from either. Both have been working on their respective setups previously. I have two working ebikes, one died so I started swapping parts to determine that its the controller that had died. So now I'm trying to get the controller from one to work on the other. I did try the suspected broken controller on the other bike too, it gave no response at all again so I'm fairly certain its dead. I have a mate who's going to let his electronics guys at work look at it, they apparently like component level diagnostics. Also, having now got the GNG to now fire up (noisily but) from 0 throttle onwards I'm hoping that means the throttle is fine. I had a look at the magura ones and will re-investigate but I've got my throttle cut down to less than a half throttle. I'd use a thumb if I thought it would fit with my gear changer (and I've got another one coming for me to experiment with) cos I get a sore wrist with the twist throttle at the moment.
I will probably re-visit the magura options when I've got this controller issue sorted.

At the end of the day I need to get a new controller to replace the broken one, but if some wire swapping will get me running I'd like to do that so I can get some riding in while waiting for the new one to arrive, and that also affects the shipping cost of getting the new one - whether I need to get fast shipping or can let it take its time getting here. The Lyen ones seem the go and I've been exchanging PM's with Edward about them.

Ahh those Cycle Analysts are pretty pricey the ones I've seen - but link to the one you've got anyway Wishes. Never know what I can convince St.Nick to let me buy myself for xmas.
100v 40A how are you keeping the rest of the bike and yourself in one piece!!!

Dont run the bike with the halls swapped, your description of a harsh running motor, higher RPM,s and more heat indicate it isnt right.

 

[Wishes]

I did try a couple of throttles, same response from either. Both have been working on their respective setups previously. I have two working ebikes, one died so I started swapping parts to determine that its the controller that had died. So now I'm trying to get the controller from one to work on the other. I did try the suspected broken controller on the other bike too, it gave no response at all again so I'm fairly certain its dead. I have a mate who's going to let his electronics guys at work look at it, they apparently like component level diagnostics. Also, having now got the GNG to now fire up (noisily but) from 0 throttle onwards I'm hoping that means the throttle is fine. I had a look at the magura ones and will re-investigate but I've got my throttle cut down to less than a half throttle. I'd use a thumb if I thought it would fit with my gear changer (and I've got another one coming for me to experiment with) cos I get a sore wrist with the twist throttle at the moment.
I will probably re-visit the magura options when I've got this controller issue sorted.

At the end of the day I need to get a new controller to replace the broken one, but if some wire swapping will get me running I'd like to do that so I can get some riding in while waiting for the new one to arrive, and that also affects the shipping cost of getting the new one - whether I need to get fast shipping or can let it take its time getting here. The Lyen ones seem the go and I've been exchanging PM's with Edward about them.

Ahh those Cycle Analysts are pretty pricey the ones I've seen - but link to the one you've got anyway Wishes. Never know what I can convince St.Nick to let me buy myself for xmas.
100v 40A how are you keeping the rest of the bike and yourself in one piece!!!

I got both my controller and CA from Lyen. As for keeping in 1 piece, not the bike, not at those power levels, your replacing chains, freewheels, sprockets, chain rings ect... on a regular basis. And for myself well only 1 concussion this summer after being clipped by a car

Wishes

 

[goa604]

I wonder what you guys think. I found a certain information and i wonder if it is true.

It can take 30A before it reaches saturation. Saturation is where a certain size of coil has been fed the maximum amps it can convert into work (28mm wide stator for the GNG and the well-known 9C hub-motor family), any additional amps over 30A are simply turned into waste-heat.

Is it true or can GNG take more amps?

 

[Denisesewa]

I wonder what you guys think. I found a certain information and i wonder if it is true.

It can take 30A before it reaches saturation. Saturation is where a certain size of coil has been fed the maximum amps it can convert into work (28mm wide stator for the GNG and the well-known 9C hub-motor family), any additional amps over 30A are simply turned into waste-heat.

Is it true or can GNG take more amps?

I have ridden both my bikes from stock ( approx 22 amps I think) up to 45 amps and everything in between searching for the best power to efficiancy, there is definatly noticible power increases achieved above 30 amps, I settled on 38 amps ( which peaks about 41 amps) as the most effecient and still have great power, so, even though the power level at say 45 amps is really fun you lose effeciency so it sucks the batteries down quickly, I did not notice any dramatic rise in heat in the motor but it did get warmer at 45 than at 38 and pretty much ran cold from 34 amps and less.
but thats just my experience. others here are pushing way more amps than me.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Thanks for posting this denisesewa, this motor continues to impress with it's performance capability per volume/weight. I can't wait to get my hands on an actual LightningRods kit, so the kit will match this awesome motor.

 

[exco]

I tried setting my personal speed record today ... then my motor wouldn't work right anymore.
Upon inspection ... the core magnets were scraping on the metal winding cores.
The scratching magnet broke in half.

Maybe the hall's also got damaged.


Any chance to get some of those magnets anywhere?
Has it happened to someone else?

 

[Wishes]

I wonder what you guys think. I found a certain information and i wonder if it is true.

It can take 30A before it reaches saturation. Saturation is where a certain size of coil has been fed the maximum amps it can convert into work (28mm wide stator for the GNG and the well-known 9C hub-motor family), any additional amps over 30A are simply turned into waste-heat.

Is it true or can GNG take more amps?

I disagree with that statement. There is clearly an increase in power above 30 amps. Some people have gone as far as swapping out the Phase wires for larger gauge and are running with 60+ amps, with clear increases in power.

I also ran it stock, then at 30 amps with the soldier mod, then I started with the lyen controllers at 40 amps, all at 48 volts. I then i increased to 60 volts, 75 volts and now 100 volts. There were clear increases in power at ever step. But if you do not change the phase wires, I highly recommend you do not exceed the 40 amp peak.

Wishes

 

[t0me]

Bloody frustrating!!!

This morning I've built a small circuit and tested the Halls - all good.
Then I tested all 36 possible Hall/Phase wire combination (reasonably safely, used small wires, and an inline fuse to reduce the risk of damaging anything).
For each Hall wire combination there were 2 phase wire combinations that made the motor move - one forwards, one reverse, but every one of them at only 5% throttle.
That made 6 forward and 6 reverse combinations that made the motor start easily and go 0-5% throttle smoothly without making any weird twitching or squealing noises (which every other combination did).

I'm no closer to making this bloody controller work.
Seems the 5% throttle problem might be something other than hall/phase?
I couldn't actually replicate the high RPM low torque connection I had yesterday with my smaller wires.

Is there any other possibilities?

I've already ordered a Lyen controller (and got the CA too - just don't tell the missus), but it'll be 2 weeks away at least. Another 2 weeks with no ebiking! The whole bloody xmas break!

 

[Wishes]

Bloody frustrating!!!

This morning I've built a small circuit and tested the Halls - all good.
Then I tested all 36 possible Hall/Phase wire combination (reasonably safely, used small wires, and an inline fuse to reduce the risk of damaging anything).
For each Hall wire combination there were 2 phase wire combinations that made the motor move - one forwards, one reverse, but every one of them at only 5% throttle.
That made 6 forward and 6 reverse combinations that made the motor start easily and go 0-5% throttle smoothly without making any weird twitching or squealing noises (which every other combination did).

I'm no closer to making this bloody controller work.
Seems the 5% throttle problem might be something other than hall/phase?
I couldn't actually replicate the high RPM low torque connection I had yesterday with my smaller wires.

Is there any other possibilities?

I've already ordered a Lyen controller (and got the CA too - just don't tell the missus), but it'll be 2 weeks away at least. Another 2 weeks with no ebiking! The whole bloody xmas break!

Hard to tell without knowing exactly why model controller your currently using. Squealing noises are usually a sync issue, which is related to the HAL sensors. A wild guess, not that i have ever come across one myself so i have not seen what happens, but there are 2 types of controllers with hal sensors, 60 degree and 120 degree. I believe our gng motors and controllers are 60 degree versions.

Wishes

 

[t0me]

Previous posts say 120, and testing the hall sensors confirmed that.
Yup, not knowing more about the controller makes it difficult.
The controller is from this kit - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/48V-1000W-Electric-Bicycle-E-Bike-Conversion-Kit-LED-Light-Motor-Front-Wheel-/140899723826?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item20ce472a32
Unfortunately there isn't any other information about it.

 

[exco]

I'm looking for a broken motor if anybody has anything for sale ...

Also - where do I get this motor cheapest at the moment?

 

[LightningRods]

Here are the magnetic armatures listed on Taobao: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=16511392647

 

[LightningRods]

Christmas came early!

100 beautiful 1.375"-24tpi to 12mm bore adapters, machined from 6061 aluminum alloy.

They fit the freewheel perfectly, no forcing a mismatched thread, and have exactly the right offset for the pulley. We are in business! Dec 26th I start filling orders for the complete 25mm wide GT belt drive.

 

[skyungjae]

Awesome! How's the other stuff coming along?

 

[LightningRods]

Awesome! How's the other stuff coming along?

I now have around 30 25mm GT2 belts ready to ship. I have 20 Cyclone ISIS BBs ready to ship. I have upper and lower adjustable sheets. I have about a dozen 219 chain secondaries ready to ship and can get more within a week. I cast the 25mm GT pulleys as they are needed and have the materials to make hundreds of them. We are ready to go.

For you specifically John, I'll make that no-freewheel hub adapter after I've shipped all of the orders I have in. That will probably be the beginning of January.

If you've been waiting for your order it will ship between Dec 26 and 31. Thanks for your patience.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Mike

 

[Whiplash]

Great job! Hey LR, sorry I missed the bank today, had to work late but I'll get that payment for that deal we talked about to you tomorrow!!

 

[Muapeia]

Happy, happy Christmas. Today I decided to make my own kit gng joined some used and with two small aluminum plates, 0.75 mm thick but very hard aluminum parts this is even used to make toothed wheels of our bikes made ​​it on one of my bikes

 

[Muapeia]

The engine cover had to stay out of aluminum foil so the challenge now 0 silicone will stretch the chains without the adjustable plates Mike, will be a little headache