GNG, 1000W 48V BB-drive, $400

[--freeride--]

Better run high quality bike-parts like Shimano XT hubs or hubs with sealed bearings, if you are running that much power! And don't forget the brakes, some serious DH-disc-brakes should be used.

 

[kifukarider]

Better run high quality bike-parts like Shimano XT hubs or hubs with sealed bearings, if you are running that much power! And don't forget the brakes, some serious DH-disc-brakes should be used.

Interestingly, I'm still using the cantilever brakes that came with the bike and they are working very well at this point and have been the least of my concerns. I haven't ridden in the rain though and I would certainly adjust according to weather. My braking power with the the cantilevers is very good and I can certainly stop faster than a car from my top speed.

I like the idea of sealed bearings. The maintenance on the loose ball bearing hubs is annoying. So far the front hub has been maintenance free though.

Is there a hub that is particularly renown for it's durability? I'll probably want to get a freehub with disc brake capability laced to a rim to use with my cantilevers for now.

I have an interest in the Sturmey Archer 5 speed with built-in drum brake. I would hate to spend the money only to toast it with too much torque though.

 

[zaphod911]

I have an interest in the Sturmey Archer 5 speed with built-in drum brake. I would hate to spend the money only to toast it with too much torque though.

Ditto on that. I read somewhere in another thread that a E-S user recently paired a mid-motor with a Rohloff, but hasn't been able to post regarding long term reliability. The Sturmey 5 Speed, XL-RD5 with a 90mm Drum and a matching 90mm front + Dynamo, XL-FDD, is going to be my first real upgrade once i get my build sorted. Expect a build thread this winter .

 

[neptronix]

```

If you overpower an external derailleur gear-set, the chain will simply skip a tooth or two. If this damages the sprocket or the chain, they are both easily sourced and fairly affordable to replace. A spare wheel is very affordable to keep in stand-by for such occasions when someone is experimenting with max power limits after an upgrade.

I am quite fond of Internally-Geared-Hubs (IGH), but if you break a tooth, an IGH would be more expensive and time-consuming to repair/replace.

Once someone determines the gear-ratios that satisfy your goals in a build, the best move (IMHO) is to use the largest sprockets that will achieve that. This will spread the load over more teeth, and it will also allow more load to be applied before tooth-skipping (or tooth-breakage) becomes an issue.

This is why designing from the very start to have as much motor-reduction as physically possible is the right move. You can always gear-up with the chainring, and after the chainring has been enlarged as much as possible, the rear sprocket cluster can then be enlarged up to the point where your most-desired gear-ratio limits are not exceeded. The end result is the maximum possible number of teeth engaged with the chain. Longer chain and sprocket life, higher power application without breaking anything, and...even just a few extra teeth (and the larger diameter that is included), will make the drivetrain run quieter.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

There is also the consideration of adjusting the phase/battery amp ratio. By adjusting this (when using a controller that allows phase amp adjustment), you will have full power at top-speed, but...when starting out from a stop, the maximum amps will be dialed back a bit. This eliminates the ability to "wheelie" when using that setting, but...it also reduces the amount of stress on each tooth.

^---nailed it on both points - listen to this man!`

 

[--freeride--]

It allways depends where you are riding. In small german cities canti-brakes are for committing suicide when you are riding arround with 3000W... Drumbrakes are even worse, they get hot and are good for nothing... Get a set of Shimano diskbrakes. Even the cheapest Hydraulik 2013-2014-modells are exellent so no need to spend a lot of money.

Shimano XT Hubs are very durable or any cheap Chinese SB hub will do...

 

[kifukarider]

Ditto on that. I read somewhere in another thread that a E-S user recently paired a mid-motor with a Rohloff, but hasn't been able to post regarding long term reliability. The Sturmey 5 Speed, XL-RD5 with a 90mm Drum and a matching 90mm front + Dynamo, XL-FDD, is going to be my first real upgrade once i get my build sorted. Expect a build thread this winter .

My impression reading the forums is that Rohloff hubs are ebike capable. At $1500 a hub, which is more than a GNG and top end battery costs, it better be. 14 speeds is way too many for an ebike though. I think 5 is about right, even 7 seems too many sometimes. The Sturmey Archer 5 speed gear range looks ideal, but it hasn't been tested yet. The thing that really holds me back is a review on amazon where a guy trashed his SA5 hub by shifting while pedaling. If that is all it takes, I don't think it could handle ebike loads. The Rohloff seems to shrug off this type of abuse.

I've had chain skipping, and it actually left the chain and sprockets no worse for wear. Also, now that I'm comfortable with derailer tuning, I fear the black box which is an IGH.

 

[kifukarider]

It allways depends where you are riding. In small german cities canti-brakes are for committing suicide when you are riding arround with 3000W.

I don't know what's going on in the small german cities, but I'll be sure to avoid them.

 

[ferret]

Ditto on that. I read somewhere in another thread that a E-S user recently paired a mid-motor with a Rohloff, but hasn't been able to post regarding long term reliability. The Sturmey 5 Speed, XL-RD5 with a 90mm Drum and a matching 90mm front + Dynamo, XL-FDD, is going to be my first real upgrade once i get my build sorted. Expect a build thread this winter .

My impression reading the forums is that Rohloff hubs are ebike capable. At $1500 a hub, which is more than a GNG and top end battery costs, it better be. 14 speeds is way too many for an ebike though. I think 5 is about right, even 7 seems too many sometimes. The Sturmey Archer 5 speed gear range looks ideal, but it hasn't been tested yet. The thing that really holds me back is a review on amazon where a guy trashed his SA5 hub by shifting while pedaling. If that is all it takes, I don't think it could handle ebike loads. The Rohloff seems to shrug off this type of abuse.

I've had chain skipping, and it actually left the chain and sprockets no worse for wear. Also, now that I'm comfortable with derailer tuning, I fear the black box which is an IGH.

The Nuvinci seems like a viable alternative.

More pocket friendly at around $400.
Stepless, so can have as many "speeds" as the rider wants.
Robust compared to most IGHs.

 

[kifukarider]

The Sturmey 5 Speed, XL-RD5 with a 90mm Drum and a matching 90mm front + Dynamo, XL-FDD, is going to be my first real upgrade once i get my build sorted. Expect a build thread this winter .

I for one am very much looking forward to it. Remember not to shift under power. I would love to see the Sturmey 5 speed succeed!!

 

[zaphod911]

It all depends on how i decide to time the build. Right now i have a Nexus 7speed and roller brakes and might just keep them to keep costs down at the beginning. Seeing i am not ever sure what motor to get (Cyclone, GNG, Bafang) it might take a while. The bike arrived on friday, so my first step is to adjust it to my size, swap tires, and see how she performs. As soon as i have a motor ordered i'll start a thread and report on how the Nexus is holding up.

 

[Joe T.]

The Nuvinci seems like a viable alternative.

More pocket friendly at around $400.
Stepless, so can have as many "speeds" as the rider wants.
Robust compared to most IGHs.

I read here (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22216&p=801575&hilit=Nuvinci#p801575) that the Nuvinci was not up for the task. I have been looking into a IGH but I am still on the fence. Right now I have a low end Shimano 9 speed borrowed from my other bike. The bike shop guy feels a high end derailleur with a friction clutch would be best. Although I agree an Ebike doesn't need a wide range of gearing, that also depends on the application. For me the first 3 gears are nicely spaced when I am in the woods riding the trails. On flat road I basically shift 1,3,5,8. This only happens on my way home after some serious hill climbing. Getting there I use as little battery power as possible to conserve. Also I am using a stock GNG motor and controller with no tricks. So my power output may be very conservative compared to the gang here.

 

[--freeride--]

The Nuvinci seems like a viable alternative.

More pocket friendly at around $400.
Stepless, so can have as many "speeds" as the rider wants.
Robust compared to most IGHs.

I read here (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22216&p=801575&hilit=Nuvinci#p801575) that the Nuvinci was not up for the task. I have been looking into a IGH but I am still on the fence.

I just read the nuvinci thread:

"When you buy the Nuvinci, the first thing you have to do is build a wheel. The company recommends a X2 lacing. My mechanic has built for me a X3 wheel, causing some spokes to be bend. after a while, one spoke was broken."

And had to laugh... maybe there is a reason wie they recommend X2...

The nuvinci is the way to go if you want a foolproof drivetrain. You can use extrastrong BMX or even small motorcycle-chains

 

[LightningRods]

LR those belts and pulleys are looking like a great upgrade.
Do you foresee any crank arm clearance issues with the additional few mm?

Tinto-
The 20mm pulley adds about 7mm with the end flange. There is still a ton of clearance- at least an inch. The 25mm will only be .2 inch wider.

I'm waiting for a quote from the 3D printing service bureau on the big pulley. As soon as I have that prototype printed I'll pull a mold and start casting production pulleys. I'll line up the correct length 25mm GT2 belts and get this upgrade ready to go out as a package.

3/4" to 11mm jackshaft adapters are done and 12 tooth 219 sprockets are ordered. The 219 secondary chain upgrade is also just about ready.

 

[TorEddy]

I'm really looking forward to you having this beltdrive ready.
If i could source the primary belt drive with matching 219 secondary reduction (eno freewheel on primary side, 11t on secondary side?), isis BB with freewheel crankarms, all in a complete package, that would be REALLY nice
Name your price

It's been great to follow the development of this solution, and i really appreciate the work you put in it.

With a kit like this, my bike with standard shunted esc, would be perfect.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=49283&p=728668&hilit=toreddy#p728668

Tord

 

[bee]

I would suggest placing the thermistor closer to the center of the motor, because placing it next to he case means it measures the temperature of a cooler part of the motor.

What is the hottest part of the motor? Would the circled area be a good location for the thermistor? Maybe strapped to the copper coils?

 

[ferret]

I would try epoxing it to the copper coil below the phase wires.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Yes, there is an air-gap between the magnets in the central rotor and the coils on the outer stator. Any part of the steel laminations of the stator, close to the copper coils, will read about the same temps.

I suppose when the motor starts to really get hot, the danger is the clear epoxy on the copper wires, so a blob of epoxy right where the copper touches the stator would be a good place to stick a thermistor.

Just a reminder, I have LM35's, LM335's, and 10K thermistors for sale, Paypal $2 each (postage and heat-shrink included) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=798624

 

[LightningRods]

If i could source the primary belt drive with matching 219 secondary reduction (eno freewheel on primary side, 11t on secondary side?), isis BB with freewheel crankarms, all in a complete package, that would be REALLY nice

The reason this has been taking so long is that I realized that everything needed to be done at once. One part affects another. In order to fit the 219 secondary driver I decided to move the freewheel to the big sprocket on the primary and so on. Right now only the getting the big secondary pulley printed is holding me up. I have worked a deal with Cyclone and will offer their 148mm ISIS BB with 219 drive on it.

Has anyone actually used ACS Crossfire freewheels and White Industries freewheels interchangeably? The ACS is listed as a 1.375" -24 tpi thread and the W-I as a 1.37" -24 tpi thread. Trials cranks are typically 1.37" thread and the BikeMotive cranks are 1.375". The GNG seems to be 1.375" with a metric thread per mm. I've read about Forum members stripping their crank threads all the time. Mixing and mismatching these thread sizes and pitches will do that. I need to confirm with Cyclone what their crank thread is. They offer a heavy duty five bolt freewheel but I would rather use ACS or W-I if I could.

 

[Whiplash]

I can't wait to see what you come up with LR, I already have my brother talked into your stuff as soon as its available. We want to run 12S lipo but turn up the amps a bit with a belt to keep it silent.

For what its worth guys, I got the kits from Conhismotor for $400 each shipped and they only took 4 days to get here!! I also just found them on Ebay and they are even cheaper with the same shipping for 375!! Ill have pics of the kits tonight...

 

[Denisesewa]

[
Has anyone actually used ACS Crossfire freewheels and White Industries freewheels interchangeably? The ACS is listed as a 1.375" -24 tpi thread and the W-I as a 1.37" -24 tpi thread. Trials cranks are typically 1.37" thread and the BikeMotive cranks are 1.375". The GNG seems to be 1.375" with a metric thread per mm. I've read about Forum members stripping their crank threads all the time. Mixing and mismatching these thread sizes and pitches will do that. I need to confirm with Cyclone what their crank thread is. They offer a heavy duty five bolt freewheel but I would rather use ACS or W-I if I could.

I have used the ACS claws and the white and the GT 120 point freewheels on my trials cranks, I can see or feel no differance, I have a GT on my GNG cranks right now and it went on without issue however it did not want to screw easily on the GNG jackshaft pulley adapter, I attributed this to poor machine work ( perhaps not? ) , I think its easy to start these fine threads crossthreaded and that leads to people having trouble, also of note is all my trials cranks are " high end" which means they are probably machined to closer tolorances however I just tried the GT, ACS claws and the original GNG freewheels on a set of cheap cranks from " Sick bike parts" and they all spin right on, Both whites I own are on trials bikes right now, sorry, not going to tear my bike down to test but I know the whites are the same. ALWAYS use Never seize !

 

[Denisesewa]

Just for referance I found a " Pheasent Brand " freewheel hanging on the wall which also screws right on.

 

[justlooking]

If i could source the primary belt drive with matching 219 secondary reduction (eno freewheel on primary side, 11t on secondary side?), isis BB with freewheel crankarms, all in a complete package, that would be REALLY nice

The reason this has been taking so long is that I realized that everything needed to be done at once. One part affects another. In order to fit the 219 secondary driver I decided to move the freewheel to the big sprocket on the primary and so on. Right now only the getting the big secondary pulley printed is holding me up. I have worked a deal with Cyclone and will offer their 148mm ISIS BB with 219 drive on it.

Has anyone actually used ACS Crossfire freewheels and White Industries freewheels interchangeably? The ACS is listed as a 1.375" -24 tpi thread and the W-I as a 1.37" -24 tpi thread. Trials cranks are typically 1.37" thread and the BikeMotive cranks are 1.375". The GNG seems to be 1.375" with a metric thread per mm. I've read about Forum members stripping their crank threads all the time. Mixing and mismatching these thread sizes and pitches will do that. I need to confirm with Cyclone what their crank thread is. They offer a heavy duty five bolt freewheel but I would rather use ACS or W-I if I could.

L,R this is the freewheel i bought to replace the one in the crank and had no problems with it wat so ever,
DICTA-Freewheel-BMX-Sprocket-16t-BRAND-NEW-CHROME
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DICTA-Freewheel-BMX-Sprocket-16t-BRAND-NEW-CHROME-/360402798690?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&hash=item53e9ae4862

 

[Joe T.]

For those who may not have seen my build thread, I built my own freewheel using a BB30 bottom bracket.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52793#p794720

I have a few weeks of riding on the bike and it has been working great. Obviously it took some custom machining and wasn't exactly a bolt on, but the effort going into these bikes it shouldn't be a big deal. The cool part is it's "click" free and silent with instantaneous lock up. On a few occasions I felt some slippage when pedaling from a dead stop. However going up hills on the trails with power assist it hasn't skipped a beat. Plus you get the benefits of a 30mm spindle for strength.

Over the winter I plan to "finish" my bike build which will require a complete tear down. I will try to document everything I can. However right now I plan to hit the trails every chance I get before weather gets too cold.

 

[E-Norco]

Has anyone actually used ACS Crossfire freewheels and White Industries freewheels interchangeably? The ACS is listed as a 1.375" -24 tpi thread and the W-I as a 1.37" -24 tpi thread. Trials cranks are typically 1.37" thread and the BikeMotive cranks are 1.375". The GNG seems to be 1.375" with a metric thread per mm. I've read about Forum members stripping their crank threads all the time. Mixing and mismatching these thread sizes and pitches will do that. I need to confirm with Cyclone what their crank thread is. They offer a heavy duty five bolt freewheel but I would rather use ACS or W-I if I could.

The Try All cranks i use are 1.37" x 24 TPI
( http://www.tartybikes.co.uk/cranks_pair/tryall_expert_isis/c514p11216.html )
the stock GNG freewheel (1.375")was difficult to fit and i think my thread is affected now.
I never mind about different thread sizes till now .
The ACS i planned to use is 1.375". ( http://eclipsebikes.com/crossfire-freewheel-p-1075.html )
The Dicta is 1.37" ( http://eclipsebikes.com/dicta-freewheel-p-1039.html )
What thread size is the stock big belt pulley adapter

 

[LightningRods]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I'm not sure that I'm any less confused but I do have a few more options now.

On the Gen 1.0 that I bought the crank arm thread thread, the BB cup thread and the big pulley adapter are all the same. As I said I believe it to be 1.375" x a metric thread. The Chinese mix and match US and metric sizes depending on where they 'borrow' their tech from. I bought a pulley with a cheap four bolt Chinese freewheel on it and it also threaded into all of the various GNG parts.

I'm going to offer my 90 tooth GT2 pulley with and without freewheel. All of the pulleys will have a 3.07" flange mount in the center. I'm going to have my machinist Steve make freewheel to 12mm threaded adapters and 3.07" to 12mm shaft adapters for those who don't want to switch over the freewheel. I need to decide on a thread size for the threaded adapter. I think I'm going with 1.375" x 24 tpi. It's a standard 1 3/8" die instead of some odd duck proprietary -.005" size that the trials bike parts manufacturers dreamt up. They must think they're plumbers. :wink:

On the BB I'm going to offer both four bolt and five bolt 219 sprocket adapter plates so you can fit whatever type of freewheel will fit your crank arm. I can't possibly know all of the many crank arm thread sizes but I would expect most quality trials parts to be 1.37" which is White Ind compatible, not Chinese four bolt or ACS five bolt compatible.

Bikes are simple, right???