GNG 350w vs 450w brushless

[patallen]

Hi, i am about to buy one of theses kits mid drive "mud guard"

I am in contact with Jon but its hard to communicate with him, i need to know if themotors are the same, and what differences in both kit, ie just the controller ?
and also what is the accepted voltage range for both units. Jon told me the 48v wont work with a 36v battery pack.
I guess all the limitations are into the controller and the motor is the same on both kit ??
Any help on this would be greatly appreciated !!

 

[d8veh]

Have a look at the threads in the "non-hub motor" section, where there's loads of details. I'm pretty sure that mine's a 48v one and I run it with a 36v controller and battery. I'd guess that the motors are the same.

Have you looked at the GNG Gen2 crank-drive at the bottom of the list. It's not quite as powerful as the one you showed, but it's much cleaner and more reliable.

 

[patallen]

Have a look at the threads in the "non-hub motor" section, where there's loads of details. I'm pretty sure that mine's a 48v one and I run it with a 36v controller and battery. I'd guess that the motors are the same.

Have you looked at the GNG Gen2 crank-drive at the bottom of the list. It's not quite as powerful as the one you showed, but it's much cleaner and more reliable.

hi, thanks for the reply, i havent seen that one yet gen2...their web page is all fu*#@$ up.

Jon just replied me
36v kit, controller accep 36-39v
48v kit: controoler accept 48-50v
:?
this is very narrow operating range i would say, maybe he didnt understood my question.

 

[spinningmagnets]

The GNG website lists TWO kits that are 350W. I would personally recommend that you get the kit that looks like the 450W kit. The only difference in the 350W kit is that the controller has a Low-Voltage-Cutoff (LVC) that is set for a 36V battery. The 48V controller will not work at all with a 36V battery.

The other 350W mid-drive uses a Currie brushed motor with a noisy integrated gear-reduction. that motor does not take heat very well, and it cannot run at higher volts or amps. If you raise the volts or amps, the components will have problems. The brushLESS 450W motor has a more expensive controller, but...it will run well at anywhere from 36V to 72V, and it seems to handle 30A well.

This means you can run it at 36V and be happy, but...if you want to try out more power later, you only have to change the battery and controller, because that motor will be fine.

Here is the OTHER 350W kit. It costs about $245, but it is noisy and you should not raise the amps or volts over the stock setting.

Here is the $401 kit that is labeled as a 36V/350W, or a 48V/400W. So his labels add to confusion. I actually like the reports about this kit at 36V X 25A = 900W, plus it's mount seems to be pretty trouble-free from the factory.
http://www.gngebike.com/36v350w-48v400w-gen2

 

[patallen]

The GNG website lists TWO kits that are 350W. I would personally recommend that you get the kit that looks like the 450W kit. The only difference in the 350W kit is that the controller has a Low-Voltage-Cutoff (LVC) that is set for a 36V battery. The 48V controller will not work at all with a 36V battery.

The other 350W mid-drive uses a Currie brushed motor with a noisy integrated gear-reduction. that motor does not take heat very well, and it cannot run at higher volts or amps. If you raise the volts or amps, the components will have problems. The brushLESS 450W motor has a more expensive controller, but...it will run well at anywhere from 36V to 72V, and it seems to handle 30A well.

This means you can run it at 36V and be happy, but...if you want to try out more power later, you only have to change the battery and controller, because that motor will be fine.

Hi, thanks very much for thoses info, yeah i was very worried about the noise of the geared one versus the one with the toothed belt. Since i am making my own controller for another purpose (Mars Me0907 motor 15hp peak ) i think i could fix the controller upon my needs
Will focus my ideas on the 450w brushless...
THANKS !!!

EDIT: i was hoping to get enough info the get the brushless 350wkit/36v with the toothed belt/mudguard, and later upgrade to 48v, but Jon told me its a different motor as well.
EDIT #2, i want to do the exact oposite...lol...get a 48v/450w kit and use it at 36 temporary, the ONLY reason is because i already have a 36v pack, later if i like the set-up i would get 48v.

 

[d8veh]

I don't know whether things got a bit muddied by the brushed motor discussion. The Gen 2 has 350w brushless motor and internal planetary gearbox. It runs relatively quiet - about the same as the the toothed belt version. The toothed belt version is not very suitable for general commuting. In the wet, you get grit in the jackshaft bearings and it makes a terrible noise. I can't see it lasting long in those conditions. The Gen 2 is all nicely sealed, so much better from that point of view. I have both the Gen 1 and Gen2 at 36v.
This is the Gen2. If you can't see the motor, press "Ctrl"+"-" to zoom out:
http://www.gngebike.com/36v350w-48v400w-gen2

 

[patallen]

I don't know whether things got a bit muddied by the brushed motor discussion. The Gen 2 has 350w brushed motor and internal planetary gearbox. It runs relatively quiet - about the same as the the toothed belt version. The toothed belt version is not very suitable for general commuting. In the wet, you get grit in the jackshaft bearings and it makes a terrible noise. I can't see it lasting long in those conditions. The Gen 2 is all nicely sealed, so much better from that point of view. I have both the Gen 1 and Gen2 at 36v.
This is the Gen2. If you can't see the motor, press "Ctrl"+"-" to zoom out:
http://www.gngebike.com/36v350w-48v400w-gen2

well, their web site clearly mention its a brushLESS motor. Unless they made a mistake, thats what i am asking for, ie, brushless motor kit, either belt drive or planetary gear reduction.

http://www.gngebike.com/36v350w-48v400w-gen2

 

[d8veh]

Sorry, I meant to say brushless. Pre-senile dementure I think. I'll try and edit it.

 

[patallen]

FWIW
i bought the 350w GEN2 and have made a lot of runs with it on my bike, realy like it. no problem reported so far. only complain for now is the throtle twist that is cheapo and no on/off switch provided.

 

[d8veh]

I just finally finished my GNG Gen 2 bike. I've been running it as a bit of a lash up until now.

I swapped the controller for a Conhismotor 750w one with LCD diisplay and 5 levels of PAS. It's a tiny bit too powerful. I guess iy gives about 30 ampd. I think the 500w one would be better. I'm using a 36v 20 aH Ping battery.

This combination with the variable PAS makes the bike much more pleasant to ride.

 

[patallen]

I just finally finished my GNG Gen 2 bike. I've been running it as a bit of a lash up until now.

I swapped the controller for a Conhismotor 750w one with LCD diisplay and 5 levels of PAS. It's a tiny bit too powerful. I guess iy gives about 30 ampd. I think the 500w one would be better. I'm using a 36v 20 aH Ping battery.

This combination with the variable PAS makes the bike much more pleasant to ride.

what is a PAS ? can you tell me more please. thanks.

 

[d8veh]

I just finally finished my GNG Gen 2 bike. I've been running it as a bit of a lash up until now.

I swapped the controller for a Conhismotor 750w one with LCD diisplay and 5 levels of PAS. It's a tiny bit too powerful. I guess iy gives about 30 ampd. I think the 500w one would be better. I'm using a 36v 20 aH Ping battery.

This combination with the variable PAS makes the bike much more pleasant to ride.

what is a PAS ? can you tell me more please. thanks.

PAS = Pedal Assist Sensor
You can get the sensor from Conhismotor too:
http://www.conhismotor.com/ProductShow.asp?id=6
You have 5 levels of power that you select on the display. The power comes automatically when you start pedalling. It's based on crank speed so you can pedal as hard or lazily as you like. When you slow down going up a hill, the controller feeds in more power in an attempt to maintain the crank-speed> Your gears then brcome a speed controller, because each time you change up a gear, you get a surge of power as the crank-speed is increased back to its set speed. The power stops when you stop pedalling. You can still use the throttle any time to over-ride the PAS. It sounds sort of strange, but actually makes riding much more relaxing .

With the throttle only, you tend to use more power than you need, so using the PAS extends your range a lot.

 

[wayover13]

I've become interested in these GNG kits as well. Something I can't really tell from the photos and descriptions I've seen, though, is whether the cog mounted on the motor spindle freewheels. From the photos found in this thread, I'd guess not. Can anyone clarify this point for me?

More specifically, I realize the specialized cranks that come with these units have a freewheel built into them. This, as I understand it, is to make it such that the rider needn't pedal while the motor spins the chainring. That could be a helpful safety feature, though not pedaling while on the bike is nothing especially appealing to me. But I ask about freewheeling at the cog mounted to the motor spindle because I wonder how the reverse scenario is handled, i.e., what about when the rider is turning the pedals with no power going to the motor? A freewheel on the cog attached to the motor spindle would allow that.

So, how do these kits work in this regard? When the motor is unpowered, does the rider experience some added drag from having to turn the motor spindle with his pedaling motion, or does that part of the kit freewheel somehow? Since there are different models of this GNG kit with slightly differing designs, perhaps some have differing capabilities in this regard than do others?

 

[d8veh]

On the Gen 2, there's two free-wheels: One in the motor and one in the crank. You can pedal without power like a normal bike or you can keep your feet still and let the motor do the work.

There's also two free-wheels on the Gen1, which works the same, but the primary free-wheel is on the jackshaft rather than in the motor.

 

[wayover13]

So both (maybe all?) these kits have some free-wheeling mechanism both at the cranks and at the motor? I don't really understand to which part you refer when you speak of a "jackshaft": can you clarify? Thanks.

 

[wayover13]

And another question. I note that these kits have various types of mounting hardware. None of the kits I'd seen so far could be easily adapted for my use (recumbent tandem with non-standard bottom bracket locations). Then I spotted a different variation today that seems like it should be readily adaptable to my rig--see the attached file. So, what's the standard for mounting brackets on these motors? Is there an old style and a new style? Could I be ensured, were I to order the kit, that I'd get the sort of bracket that should be more compatible with my bike? Thanks.

PS I think I figured out what the jackshaft is, so no need to respond to my previous question about that.

 

[wayover13]

And yet another query: is the kit listed for sale on this ebay ad http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-450W-ELECTRIC-MOTORIZED-E-BIKE-CONVERSION-KIT-/200737981630?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ebcea84be a Gen 1 or a Gen 2? It looks like probably a cog gear-reduction system rather than the quieter belt drive gear reduction.

 

[patallen]

I just finally finished my GNG Gen 2 bike. I've been running it as a bit of a lash up until now.

I swapped the controller for a Conhismotor 750w one with LCD diisplay and 5 levels of PAS. It's a tiny bit too powerful. I guess iy gives about 30 ampd. I think the 500w one would be better. I'm using a 36v 20 aH Ping battery.

This combination with the variable PAS makes the bike much more pleasant to ride.

what is a PAS ? can you tell me more please. thanks.

PAS = Pedal Assist Sensor
You can get the sensor from Conhismotor too:
http://www.conhismotor.com/ProductShow.asp?id=6
You have 5 levels of power that you select on the display. The power comes automatically when you start pedalling. It's based on crank speed so you can pedal as hard or lazily as you like. When you slow down going up a hill, the controller feeds in more power in an attempt to maintain the crank-speed> Your gears then brcome a speed controller, because each time you change up a gear, you get a surge of power as the crank-speed is increased back to its set speed. The power stops when you stop pedalling. You can still use the throttle any time to over-ride the PAS. It sounds sort of strange, but actually makes riding much more relaxing .

With the throttle only, you tend to use more power than you need, so using the PAS extends your range a lot.

So then the only question that remains to me, the GEN2 doesnt support plug-in PAS feature isnt it ? one need to get a proper controller to go along with that. What is yours if you dont mind, id like to see that !!
thanks for the clever explanation.

 

[wayover13]

Here is the OTHER 350W kit. It costs about $245, but it is noisy and you should not raise the amps or volts over the stock setting.

That photo looks the same as this auction I found on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/36V-250W-MID-ELECTRIC-MOTORIZED-E-BIKE-CONVERSION-KIT-3rd-version-/200900038918?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec6935106 But the Ebay listing says it's a 250 watt motor, and the price is a bit lower than what you've quoted. This eBay listing looks interesting to me because it looks as though the mounting hardware would, with minimal modification, work on my (unusual) bike. I'd probably have to extend a little further back the arm that's meant to afix to the chainstay, and then run a dedicated chain from the pulley on the motor spindle around the chainring (rather than that drive cog being within the chainline as it would be on a typical bike). I guess the noisiness and amperage/voltage restrictions apply to this 250 watt version as well?

 

[d8veh]

So then the only question that remains to me, the GEN2 doesnt support plug-in PAS feature isnt it ? one need to get a proper controller to go along with that. What is yours if you dont mind, id like to see that !!
thanks for the clever explanation.

The GNG supplied controllers have the connector for a standard PAS sensor. The power algorithm for the PAS in the controller is IMHO not very good. It gives too much power when you don't want it.

I'm using this controller now, but I haven't got it to display the right speed yet because it uses motor speed.
http://www.conhismotor.com/ProductShow.asp?id=323

 

[d8veh]

And yet another query: is the kit listed for sale on this ebay ad http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-450W-ELECTRIC-MOTORIZED-E-BIKE-CONVERSION-KIT-/200737981630?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ebcea84be a Gen 1 or a Gen 2? It looks like probably a cog gear-reduction system rather than the quieter belt drive gear reduction.

That's neither. It has a brushed motor. The Gen 1 is the brushless with toothed belt. The Gen 2 is the brushless all enclosed with planetary gears.
You should go to the GNG website and look at all the different options. It'll answer most of your questions. There's lots of different kits that mount in different ways.

 

[wayover13]

Actually, I'm thinking that what spinningmagnets refers to as "the OTHER 350W kit" might work best for my bike. The mounting hardware looks like it could be adapted to my unusual bike with minimal modifications and the motor, though apparently subject to voltage and amperage limits as well as being on the noisy side, is a bit more powerful than the eBay model I found. Coupla questions about it: how weather-resistant are these GNG kits in general, and this "OTHER 350W kit" in particular? How do they compare with hub motors in the weather-resistance department? Also, those crank arms look from the photos to be steel: so, are they steel, or perhaps polished aluminum?

 

[LightningRods]

Coupla questions about it: how weather-resistant are these GNG kits in general, and this "OTHER 350W kit" in particular? How do they compare with hub motors in the weather-resistance department? Also, those crank arms look from the photos to be steel: so, are they steel, or perhaps polished aluminum?

I received one of the first if not the first of the 'waterproof' GNG Gen 1s imported into the US. The new jackshaft is considerably better. More sturdy as well as much more water and mud resistant. I also found that the closed jackshaft that I had spun with much less resistance than the open jackshaft. The outside of the bearings are still somewhat vulnerable to water but could be protected fairly well with an external coating of heavy grease. There is also a plastic splash guard which will help keep dash from the front wheel off of the motor, etc.

IMO, the 48V GNG has the most potential to be a GREAT e-bike kit but is not properly sorted from the factory. In particular the primary drive is terribly designed and made. If you want a reliable commuter that works fairly well out of the box, buy a Gen 2. If you are more interested in high power and performance and don't mind some fiddling, the Gen 1 has way more potential for hot rodding.

The Gen 1 comes with alloy crank arms as does the Gen 2.

 

[wayover13]

Thanks for your helpful pointers, LightningRods. I'm not sure the kit I'm referencing has a jackshaft: it looks like a cog on the motor spindle engages with a larger cog which, in turn, has a spindle at its center to which the cog that engages with the chain is affixed. Splash guards don't really apply to my installation either, since the motor should end up about a foot above the front wheel (plan on mounting it at the captain's crankset on a recumbent tandem). And thanks for describing what sort of material these crank arms are made from.

I'm looking at the 36V 350W ELECTRIC BIKE KIT (brushed) because its mounting hardware looks like it will be usable on my bike with only minimal modifications (there will be no chainstay to which to affix the mounting bracket; rather, it will have to be affixed to the boom to which the captain's bottom bracket is welded). That said, I looked at the link in your signature and see that you appear to be fabricating mounting hardware for these motors, correct? Can you do custom mounting brackets that might allow me to use some other GNG motor kit on my unusual bike?

 

[wayover13]

Another question. Does the right side crank arm on these GNG kits have threads on it where it slides onto the bottom bracket spindle? In other words, does it thread into that freewheel to which the chainring bolts?