Going back to a bike-like-bike

[Chalo]

I also have an order in for a Mavic A119 rim, Schwalbe Marathon tire, rim tape and tubes.

I'm now ready to order the outrider kit and custom spokes from ebikes.ca. I'll try lacing it myself, 2 cross pattern.

Cross-2 lacing is usually too oblique for a hub motor (spokes approach the rim at an angle the nipples can't tilt over to match). Some rims are more restrictive than others in this regard. I built a wheel for my wife that used a 700c rim and a Rohloff hub (which is smaller than a hub motor) with cross-2 lacing, and it occasionally breaks spokes at the threads because they don't exactly line up with the nipples.

Cross-1 is plenty for any hub motor I have ever seen. Sometimes even that is too much.

 

[cal3thousand]

I also have an order in for a Mavic A119 rim, Schwalbe Marathon tire, rim tape and tubes.

I'm now ready to order the outrider kit and custom spokes from ebikes.ca. I'll try lacing it myself, 2 cross pattern.

Cross-2 lacing is usually too oblique for a hub motor (spokes approach the rim at an angle the nipples can't tilt over to match). Some rims are more restrictive than others in this regard. I built a wheel for my wife that used a 700c rim and a Rohloff hub (which is smaller than a hub motor) with cross-2 lacing, and it occasionally breaks spokes at the threads because they don't exactly line up with the nipples.

Cross-1 is plenty for any hub motor I have ever seen. Sometimes even that is too much.

The only hub motor that I have successfully built 2 cross was a 700c rim and a conhismotor mini dd hub (which is as large as an IGH)

 

[El_Steak]

Cross-2 lacing is usually too oblique for a hub motor (spokes approach the rim at an angle the nipples can't tilt over to match). Some rims are more restrictive than others in this regard. I built a wheel for my wife that used a 700c rim and a Rohloff hub (which is smaller than a hub motor) with cross-2 lacing, and it occasionally breaks spokes at the threads because they don't exactly line up with the nipples.

Cross-1 is plenty for any hub motor I have ever seen. Sometimes even that is too much.

I haven't ordered the spokes yet so I can change to 1 cross if need be. I used the ebikes.ca spokes calculator which on my 607mm ERD rim and tiny outrider motor (118mm hub flange diameter) gives me 260mm spokes at an 81.6deg angle using a 2 cross pattern. Is that angle fine? A 1 cross pattern on that same rim/motor would be 248mm spokes at an 85.3deg angle.

 

[Russell]

With a conventional pattern of alternating in/out spoke heads the cross-2 is best with small motors in the big 700C rims though cross-1 works fine too. The Bafang motors I used the most were both laced cross-2 and went many thousands of miles with no breakage. Here is one I still use (on a different bike than shown);



One thing to consider when lacing a small geared motor if you're using disc brakes is caliper clearance. With the Bafang shown above (~122mm flange hole diameter) a caliper will strike the spoke elbows unless I go to a 203mm rotor. The EBK motor I use has almost identical dimensions but is laced 1X with ALL spoke heads facing out allowing the spokes to clear the caliper even with a 160mm rotor.



I presently use the Bafang on a bike with V-brakes now so it doesn't mater but it's something to keep in mind. The Q100 motor I have is laced cross-2 with alternating in/out spokes but it is so small (108mm flange hole diameter) that caliper clearance is no problem.

-R

 

[El_Steak]

Thanks Russell. I have V-Brakes so I will do cross-2 with in-out heads. It should look really similar to your first picture (if I manage to lace it properly )

 

[cal3thousand]

Thanks Russell. I have V-Brakes so I will do cross-2 with in-out heads. It should look really similar to your first picture (if I manage to lace it properly )

Pro-tip: Inserting all of your inbound spokes first before lacing will greatly reduce your headaches. Outbound spokes are not big deal. :wink:

 

[Racer_X]

Alright, I bought the bike (2013 Specialized Sirrus) and should get it on Thursday.

I am working on a 2013 Specialized Sirrus as well. I am going rear wheel drive using a Q100 geared motor, so I am subscribing.
Keep us posted El_Steak.

 

[El_Steak]

For spokes did you guys use 13G or the butted 13-14G ?

 

[cal3thousand]

For spokes did you guys use 13G or the butted 13-14G ?

I used double butted 15G - 14G. 14G at both ends and 15G in the middle for stretch.

 

[El_Steak]

Well, it sure took me a while, but I finally got the time to put the bike together.

The quick review is here:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=62232

 

[dgk02]

check out ypedal.com. looks like a excellent kit but i have not personally used one but would highly consider it for a front hub build. jmo.

Looks ok but doesn't seem to include pedal assist so it's going to be throttle only.

 

[bowlofsalad]

I have not tested a Q100H yet ( i want to ), but i would see it as comparable to the outrider motor, at least on spec sheets.

It may be a better choice due to it's slower winding and the fact that you're going to run 12S.

Also about 0.4lb. lighter.

Be careful with the controller choice however, it's a very very high RPM motor due to the reduction; a 6fet infineon-type EB3 would probably handle it best. If an EB3 6fet infineon can handle a MAC motor ( high pole count plus 5:1 reduction ), it should handle the Q100H just fine.

Has anyone used one of these controllers, "6fet infineon-type EB3", with a Q100H or a SWXH? I've been looking around for an ideal controller for various small geared hub motors.

 

[Russell]

Has anyone used one of these controllers, "6fet infineon-type EB3", with a Q100H or a SWXH? I've been looking around for an ideal controller for various small geared hub motors.

With their 5:1 reduction ratio any Bafang geared motor (MXUS and the OP's Outrider too) should run nicely with any controller out there. My favorite until the most recent board revision (which won't now run a Q100) has been the 36/48V 9-FET KU93. It's cheap and versatile (I have 3 of them). The smaller, less powerful KU63 is also good but some come with 50V main caps and some with 63V (I have 2 of each).

Presently I run a 48V/14A KU63 with a standard Q100 (8.1:1 reduction), a late model 36/48V KU93/22A (at 36V) with an E-BikeKit (Fast-wound MXUS) geared motor, and an earlier model 36V KU93 (tweaked to 26A) with a Bafang BPM geared motor at 48V. ALL are run in sensorless mode

I have an older model Infineon "cellman" 6-FET 4110 controller that I did run with the BPM...until a hall sensor failed. It spun up the Q100 just fine but since it's programmed for 27A peak I didn't run with it.

The Q100H has a higher reduction ratio (12.6:1) than the standard Q100 giving it even a higher commutation frequency than the 5:1, 16 pole MAC so I wouldn't say it's a given the latest "cellman" Infineon controller will run a Q100H satisfactorily.

Personally I like cheap controllers. Since I have had 3 hall failures in 5 years I also prefer to run sensorless. Furthermore I like a minimal amount of cables so I usually strip the controllers, sometimes leaving only the power, phase and throttle connections. However if you want programmability, a Cycle Analyst connection and higher quality FETs then the Infineons from EM3ev are the way to go and worth a try on the Q100H.

-R

PS, for best response to your question you should ask it in a more appropriate thread or start a new one.

 

[motomech]

I'm not sure the "ideal controller for various small geared hub motors" exists.
But in answer to your question, I am currently running a first gen. Infineon\Grin 20A(limited to 15A W\ a C.A.) 6-FET(w\ Halls) on a standard Q100(8.1:1 red. ratio) with no problems.
But that really doesn't answer the question if this controller can "clock" fast enough for the Q100H or Q100C with their 12.2:1 red. ratios. I think it's almost a situation of "trial, case by case" for various controllers with those two motors.
I am also using a Sine-wave controller on a Q100C and it is smoother and noticeably more quiet than the Q100\infineon combo. To what degree this is a function of the greater number of motor poles or the sine-wave controller, I am not sure.
As to the "Ideal" controller, my experience is other factors steer me towards one controller or another. Things like pack Voltage, motor wind, the need for for a controller LVC, size or the ability to live in an enclosed space.
In other words, the specific motor-application dictate which controller.
In terms of value, toughness(I have the older ones w\ 63V cap.s) and compatibility, it's hard to beat the KU63's and Ku65's. They just don't have the features the newer models have.

Sorry for the thread hi-jack

 

[bowlofsalad]

PS, for best response to your question you should ask it in a more appropriate thread or start a new one.

Too true, sorry for the thread hijacking.