going electric, converting one of my bikes

[knut7]

I know ppl have been reported for asking US ebay sellers declare low value on the shipment. Don't think I'll bother.

Seems I found my answer

The small Q series motors don't work well sensorless, so that rules out the S06P and LSW-675. They all definitely work with the KU63 and KU65, and should work with the S06S; however, I haven't personally tried one yet.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&start=75#p853392

S06S it is then, if I'm able to establish contact with BSMb in time. My order status just changed to "Testing", not sure how to interpret that

 

[mlt34]

My order status just changed to "Testing", not sure how to interpret that

Yea, it will change to a couple different updates, followed by a 'checking' and perhaps an 'ok go' before 'shipped', at which point it probably won't ship for another couple days. oh, china....

 

[motomech]

Are you still getting the bottle battery with the intergrated controller?
That would be OK.
The SO6P does not work with the cute.
The SO6S is nice, but you would need to get the LCD3 display or modify the controller to stand-alone operation.
The display is very nice! You can download the manual to see what it does.
The KU63 is the least expensive. It is basic, but still does PAS and cruise.
The KU65 is a little fancier than the KU63.
The SO6S, KU6363 and KU65 can be easily modified(shunt mod) to increase the Amps from 15 to 17A. This does not add speed, but adds acceleration and climbing power.
I ran the Q100H, 36V batt. 15 A controller thru the Ebike CA simulator. Top speed looks like 32 Kph. The DNP freewheel small sprocket of 11T and your big chainring of 44T will give very good pedal count at this speed and you should be able to add several Kph to the top speed.
The bike will climb well too. up to 10% grade without over-heating the motor.
Hope this helps.

 

[mlt34]

The cute motors are in the simulator?

 

[motomech]

One of them, the 328.
But I subéd the EZEE orig., the same motor I use for the MXUS geared.
Those two, plus the Q100H, all have the same no-load RPM, 255 to 260 @ 36V.
That gave me the road speed.
Since the Ezee weighs quite a bit more, I interpolated the Overheat Time from what my MXUS on 17A did.
It might be a little optimistic, but it sounds like the OP is young and strong on the pedals.
My experience is, the Cute, like my MXUS, doesn't heat up that much. but the controller sure does.
I once melted the phase wire connectors where they go into the controller on the Cute kit, but I weigh 255 lb.s..
They could soldered directly together, but then the phase wires would likely melt in the motor.
Many think the gears are the weak link with mini's, but really it's the wires.

 

[knut7]

Are you still getting the bottle battery with the intergrated controller?
That would be OK.
The SO6P does not work with the cute.
The SO6S is nice, but you would need to get the LCD3 display or modify the controller to stand-alone operation.
The display is very nice! You can download the manual to see what it does.
The KU63 is the least expensive. It is basic, but still does PAS and cruise.
The KU65 is a little fancier than the KU63.
The SO6S, KU6363 and KU65 can be easily modified(shunt mod) to increase the Amps from 15 to 17A. This does not add speed, but adds acceleration and climbing power.
I ran the Q100H, 36V batt. 15 A controller thru the Ebike CA simulator. Top speed looks like 32 Kph. The DNP freewheel small sprocket of 11T and your big chainring of 44T will give very good pedal count at this speed and you should be able to add several Kph to the top speed.
The bike will climb well too. up to 10% grade without over-heating the motor.
Hope this helps.

Thanks, it helps. I like the idea of having the controller integrated in the battery case, more compact, stealthy and easy to install the battery. You recommend getting the S-LCD3 display, this battery pack comes with S-LCD1, that will work fine too I assume?
http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/567-bottle-ebike-battery-controller.html

I'm close to 150lbs, so I guess I'll be able to avoid overheating

 

[motomech]

The LCD3 is cool, but it's $27.
The LCD1 would be fine.
You can download the owner's manuals to see which has what.

 

[knut7]

We've established the Q100 doesn't work (or work well) with the S06P. But the Q100-kit I initially ordered does come with the S06P
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/577-250w350w-q-85100sx-motor-e-bike-kit.html
(4. A integrated S06P controller.)

What's up with that!? Why are they selling a kit with parts that doesn't work together? The reason I chose that complete kit was to make sure I didn't pick any incompatible parts.

 

[mlt34]

The SO6P should work fine with the cute Q100. Why wouldn't it work?

[edit] nvm, I just found this:

I tried the S06P with a Q100CST. It kept losing sync. Get a S06S.

 

[knut7]

The SO6P should work fine with the cute Q100. Why wouldn't it work?

Dunno why it wouldn't work, but this has been written previously in this thread.

The small Q series motors don't work well sensorless, so that rules out the S06P and LSW-675. They all definitely work with the KU63 and KU65, and should work with the S06S; however, I haven't personally tried one yet.

Are you still getting the bottle battery with the intergrated controller?
That would be OK.
The SO6P does not work with the cute.
(...)

 

[mlt34]

Maybe ask them to throw in a ku63 or ku65 instead.

I love the KU63. it's a bulletproof little workhorse controller for the cost of a couple starbucks coffees...

 

[knut7]

I'm going with the bottle battery with integrated controller, so it's gotta be the S06S. Being new to this I thought it would be safe to get this complete kit to be sure I would get something that works. But it seems compatibility was not a priority when composing that kit :/

 

[mlt34]

Welcome to our world

 

[knut7]

Welcome to our world

Why thanks, seems I need a bit more guidance dealing with this world, or should I say continent :-o

This is the kit I initially ordered
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/577-250w350w-q-85100sx-motor-e-bike-kit.html
As far as I can tell, all I need to get this to work is this S06S controller, without the LCD1 display as that's supplied in the kit. This controller can easily replace the S06P in the battery case.
http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/668-36v-s06p-integrated-controller-for-new-bottle-case.html

My commute to work is about 10km, 5 of which is semi steep uphill. Will the 201rpm engine have any advantage over the 260rpm one when it comes to maintaining speed in climbs? Or will the 260rpm running at 201rpm perform exactly like the slower wound engine?

I know, I've posted these links before, but I really need confirmation that what I buy will work. If I decide to change my order then I'll get the Q100H

• Q100H 260rpm motor http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/633-250w350w-q-85100sx-motor-e-bike-kit.html
  
  Bottle battery pack with S06S and LCD1 http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/567-bottle-ebike-battery-controller.html
  
  Speed sensor? http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/550-s-led770-e-bike-led-meter.html
  
  PAS cadence sensor, 5, 8 or 10 poles? SM-3A or AM-3A plug? Will this be ok? http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/570-pas-pulse-padel-assistant-sensor.html
  
  Half twist throttle, won't need a display for this, right? http://www.bmsbattery.com/accessory/395-thumb-level-throttle.html
  
  Not sure I'll use the brakes, but I'll get some handles anyway http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/52-brake-grip.html

Will this work? Anything else I need? I really wanna make it work at first try, can't waste weeks waiting for more parts, summer is short around here.

I finally found a freewheel at a good price, ordered this one
http://www.amazon.com/DNP-Epoch-Freewheel-Nickel-Plated/dp/B007CCBJ5O/ref=pd_sim_sbs_sg_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1R31CS3XW30PJXKX2YH6

 

[d8veh]

The KU63 used to be the controller of choice for the Q100. It can run sensored and sensorless with most motors. Those that tried to run the Q100 sensorless with it, which includes me, found that it was rough, noisy and lacking power.

BMSBattery say that the S06P is OK with the Q100. The one I tried was the 328 rpm Q100CST. It was OK up to medium speed, but then kept losing power and making that grinding sound that you get with a bad FET or phase connection.

Maybe the S06P will be OK with the Q100H or 201 rpm Q100. The rotor in the Q100 rotates very fast, so you need a controller that can handle the high commutation speed, which many can't.

Those bottle battery integrated controllers are sealed, so you can't solder the shunt to get more current, plus, it's a pain to get all the connectors in the compartment, so IMHO, it's better to get a separate controller and stick it in a box somewhere.

 

[mlt34]

technically slower rpm motors are always better at hills, since they will stay in a more efficient speed and lose less energy as waste heat. They'll also keep your controller happier and cooler. And you'll get better overall range.

All those advantages come at the cost of speed though.

I built a 201 rpm Q100 36V bottle battery ebike with a KU65 for my wife's uncle and it's a great little bike, but it's just not a speed demon.

 

[silentflight]

Looks like I'm too late to this thread. You mentioned that a local dealer sells Bionx kits, were you able to test ride one? There is a world of difference between torque sensing and cadence sensing pedal assist- speaking from firsthand experience and many miles on each in all types of terrain. You own three nice bikes, so it seems fairly likely that you enjoy biking/pedaling and simply want some extra power to fight the hills and wind and go farther. Your first post is almost a perfect case for a Bionx system. Cadence sensing is clunky and doesn't feel natural, torque sensing works like a bike should in all conditions, no throttle because bikes have always had a "pedal harder to get more power" interface you won't miss a throttle at all if you enjoy riding normal bikes and aren't looking for an electric moped/motorcycle type of ride.

They are somewhat flexible, you can use any battery you like, and of any size (regen may not work, but that is not very useful anyway) and you can remove the speed limit as well on either the old I2C or newer canbus models using a tool discussed on the german pedelec forum and sold by one of the members there.

If you enjoy DIY projects, then going with a Thun sensor and a Cycle Analyst is also a good choice.

There are some torque sensing mid-drive bikes which you might enjoy trying, the Trek Powerfly and Haibike models with the Bosch motor are available in Europe. Even if you aren't interested in buying one a test ride would be fun and educational.

Bottom line is that trying some bikes is a good way for people new to electric bikes to find what is best for them. The advice here at the sphere can be very useful, but it doesn't replace getting on a few bikes and seeing for yourself how they perform.

A used Bionx kit would likely be perfect for you, at least until a solid-performing torque-sensing mid-drive kit is available. The new BIonx kits are somewhat expensive, but when you compare the quality and reliability with other options it is evident why they sell fairly well. I think a torque sensing mid-drive would be even better, but I haven't ridden one yet myself.

 

[knut7]

Maybe the S06P will be OK with the Q100H or 201 rpm Q100. The rotor in the Q100 rotates very fast, so you need a controller that can handle the high commutation speed, which many can't.

Those bottle battery integrated controllers are sealed, so you can't solder the shunt to get more current, plus, it's a pain to get all the connectors in the compartment, so IMHO, it's better to get a separate controller and stick it in a box somewhere.

Yeah, realize I'm not getting the most out of the controller by picking this battery pack, and the battery cells are not all that. But I'm in a recovery process and can't wait to get on my bike again, so I just wanna have an easy solution that can be installed quickly, while it's still summer. No patience for DIYing battery/controller cases now. I might regret not being able to get to the shunt, but at least it will be good for range Under normal circumstances I've got no problem DIYing, been etching PCBs, building headphone amps, etc. But I haven't got the energy for it atm.

technically slower rpm motors are always better at hills, since they will stay in a more efficient speed and lose less energy as waste heat. They'll also keep your controller happier and cooler. And you'll get better overall range.

All those advantages come at the cost of speed though.

Maybe getting the 201rpm won't be that bad, I'd rather go 15mph everywhere than dropping below 15mph uphill.

Looks like I'm too late to this thread. You mentioned that a local dealer sells Bionx kits, were you able to test ride one? There is a world of difference between torque sensing and cadence sensing pedal assist- speaking from firsthand experience and many miles on each in all types of terrain. You own three nice bikes, so it seems fairly likely that you enjoy biking/pedaling and simply want some extra power to fight the hills and wind and go farther. Your first post is almost a perfect case for a Bionx system. Cadence sensing is clunky and doesn't feel natural, torque sensing works like a bike should in all conditions, no throttle because bikes have always had a "pedal harder to get more power" interface you won't miss a throttle at all if you enjoy riding normal bikes and aren't looking for an electric moped/motorcycle type of ride.

They are somewhat flexible, you can use any battery you like, and of any size (regen may not work, but that is not very useful anyway) and you can remove the speed limit as well on either the old I2C or newer canbus models using a tool discussed on the german pedelec forum and sold by one of the members there.

If you enjoy DIY projects, then going with a Thun sensor and a Cycle Analyst is also a good choice.

There are some torque sensing mid-drive bikes which you might enjoy trying, the Trek Superfly and Haibike models with the Bosch motor are available in Europe. Even if you aren't interested in buying one a test ride would be fun and educational.

Bottom line is that trying some bikes is a good way for people new to electric bikes to find what is best for them. The advice here at the sphere can be very useful, but it doesn't replace getting on a few bikes and seeing for yourself how they perform.

A used Bionx kit would likely be perfect for you, at least until a solid-performing torque-sensing mid-drive kit is available. The new BIonx kits are somewhat expensive, but when you compare the quality and reliability with other options it is evident why they sell fairly well. I think a torque sensing mid-drive would be even better, but I haven't ridden one yet myself.

Not sure the Norwegian BionX dealer is still around, but I found the price for the 250W24V kit, it was ~$2700 incl vat. I can get an electric Haibike (I belive it was) for about that ammount.

My experience with ebikes is limited to test riding the sad looking
Flyer T5 Deluxe http://ginnersport.com/shop/e-bikes/flyer-t-5-deluxe-elektrofahrrad/
I could live with that speed and power since I haven't tried a faster bike The torque sensor was functioning very well, and I fear the lack of this sensor would be a bigger problem than the lack of power/speed.

But the order is placed at BSMb, and the price suits me fine. So I'm trying to make the best out of that, and ensure that I get everything I need on first attempt. Thun and Cycle Analyst could be the next step.

 

[silentflight]

I think you'll have a great time with the gear you ordered, and the sphere will be here to make sure you do!

Norway is a very expensive place (I've paid as much for a burger in Oslo as a steak in Chicago.) That Bionx kit is $1199 (without shipping or tax) at jvbike.com. I don't know about the whole line of electric Haibikes, but the new ones with the latest Bosch mid-drive seem to be $4000-$8000 US or so. Expensive bikes, but I'm looking forward to trying one, and as a european, you might have that chance now as they have been for sale in europe for some time. The US market has been ignored by nearly every manufacturer of Bosch mid-drive bikes, including Trek. These bikes get high praise on the German forum and look like a technology that will take a major bite out of the market worldwide once the price comes down.

I've never put together a Thun/CA bike, and I'm not sure if anyone on the sphere has posted about doing it themselves. Perhaps someone here knows. It seems like a great option, with lots of room to experiment and customize your ride. Perhaps Justin did it once.

Ebikes are still rare enough that test rides of the latest tech are sometimes difficult to come by, but very worthwhile when possible. Have a great time watching your part of Norway glide past while you ride!

 

[motomech]

I just placed a big order with BMS Battery, it shipped the next day.
Stay with the Q100H and get a KU63 or KU65 as a back-up. Cheap insurance

 

[knut7]

I think you'll have a great time with the gear you ordered, and the sphere will be here to make sure you do!

Norway is a very expensive place (I've paid as much for a burger in Oslo as a steak in Chicago.) That Bionx kit is $1199 (without shipping or tax) at jvbike.com. I don't know about the whole line of electric Haibikes, but the new ones with the latest Bosch mid-drive seem to be $4000-$8000 US or so. Expensive bikes, but I'm looking forward to trying one, and as a european, you might have that chance now as they have been for sale in europe for some time. The US market has been ignored by nearly every manufacturer of Bosch mid-drive bikes, including Trek. These bikes get high praise on the German forum and look like a technology that will take a major bite out of the market worldwide once the price comes down.

I've never put together a Thun/CA bike, and I'm not sure if anyone on the sphere has posted about doing it themselves. Perhaps someone here knows. It seems like a great option, with lots of room to experiment and customize your ride. Perhaps Justin did it once.

Ebikes are still rare enough that test rides of the latest tech are sometimes difficult to come by, but very worthwhile when possible. Have a great time watching your part of Norway glide past while you ride!

Yeah, I was confused, the electric Haibikes are way more expensive. Here's what I get for less than the Norwegian price of the BionX 250w24v kit
http://www.finn.no/finn/torget/annonse?finnkode=48729590&searchclickthrough=true&searchQuery=el%20sykkel
500w rear hub, 15Ah and max speed 37km/h. Not very legal, but no one seems to mind.

This one is about $1000, no info offered other than what the photo shows
http://biltema.no/no/Fritid/Sykler/Sykler-og-vogner/Elsykkel/Elsykkel-28-herre-271306/
But I guess I want a decent bike

So bike prices aren't the most expensive thing in Norway, but restaurant food is, or even fast food, how about $17 for a Big Mac meal?

Anyways, I'm hoping the kit I'm getting will be okay, the throttle will have to make up for lacking a torque sensor. The $1200 ex vat BinoX kit might have been better for me, but the order has been placed with BSMb a few days ago.

 

[knut7]

I just placed a big order with BMS Battery, it shipped the next day.
Stay with the Q100H and get a KU63 or KU65 as a back-up. Cheap insurance

Currently I'm staying with the Q100 actually, I've tried to establish contact with BSMb and asked for the Q100H, but they haven't responded. My order was placed 4 days ago, status is still "Testing" :/

 

[silentflight]

how about $17 for a Big Mac meal?

and that wasn't at Gardermoen airport either, I bet. Fortunately friends and family in Norway along with the scenery make it a must visit place anyhow.

Bionx was originally designed with rehabbing riders in mind, that is one reason I brought it up. The 36 or 48 volt systems might be better if you do decide to get one someday- not sure how the Norsk police would ever know the difference once you got it in country. They don't show up used too often, but I was able to buy a 24 and 36 volt system used from another member of the sphere. I think most Bionx buyers balk at the price at first, but if they are into riding normal bikes (most of my miles are unpowered) they don't regret the purchase as they are typically high quality kits that last. Mine are about 8-10 years old now and seriously overvolted with my own battery packs.

I should also say that many members here at the sphere consider BionX to be overpriced and are also addicted to their throttles. That's OK, there is room for everyone under the endless sphere tent. Bionx kits can come with a discreet thumb or button throttle as well if you like.

Anyway, sorry to go on and on about Bionx. You will have a blast with your bike and maybe you will lead us into the world of Thun/CA bikes someday as well.

To be sure BIonx is also not the latest tech - the mid-drive Bosch bikes look very tempting.

 

[knut7]

Lunch is easily $35+ at Gardermoen... Oh well, I'll stop talking about food for a while The Bosch mid motor looks sweet. If I ever get my kit to work I think I better get out of here right away, and never look back

(...) and get a KU63 or KU65 as a back-up. Cheap insurance

Took a while for this to sink in, I definitely should ad one of those to my order. The KU65 I guess...

 

[knut7]

So the 201rpm engine along with the rest of the kit arrived Thursday July 3, about 3 weeks after placing the order. Got home from holliday (part1) yesterday and picked it up today, started wiring a bit, but holiday (part2) starts tomorrow at 5am, so I didn't have the time to finish it.

The rear wheel needs redishing, and I needed spacers to keep the disc brake mount from rubbing the rotor, then there's the issue of the bottle battery fitted upside down due to space shortage. Lot's of small things keeping me from finishing it, and one bigger issue.

I can't find any info on how to connect these wires (between motor and controller), controller DOC says the 3 big wires are for 3 phase motor. Do the "3 phase wire" replace the "pwr wire"? How are they connected?

Also, there are 5 smaller wires which I can't find a description for, there's also a plastic socket to slide them into. Do I need these? Can't find anywhere to connect them on the controller doc.



Here's the controller DOC, the wires named "power wire" can't be found among the equipment I received. Do the "3 phase motor wire" replace them?