Golden Motor Identification/Programming cable/Issues

Joaqthru

10 µW
Joined
Jun 21, 2016
Messages
6
Hi all,

I was recently given this 26" Nishiki with a GM rear hub motor, internal controller.

The cable has 8 pins.

Can anyone help me identify which version this is? I am thinking its a Magic Pie 1 or 2?

I am looking to purchase a programming cable so that I can play with the clunk/stuttered start that sometimes happens when pressing the throttle from a stop. I was reading somewhere that this has to do with the hall settings. Does this sound right?

Also will ebrake levers be applicable to this motor to improve stopping?

Otherwise I'm just getting this bike together and it's a blast. I'm going to give it a tuneup, brakes, chain, bearings, and make some simple torque arms for my next phase! It's been 8 years since I had an ebike and a year or so before that when I put my first ebike together, and Wow! It is so much fun.

Thank you in advance, cheers!
 

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A more detailed explanation of the "clunk/stuttered start that sometimes happens when pressing the throttle from a stop." would help.

Do you at least pedal from a stop or you just use throttle only?
How long does it last from 0 to what speed does it stop at?
 
The stutter only happens when throttling from 0, usually for 5 seconds or so until it catches enough to move forward and stop the stalling. If I pedaling up a couple mph first, it throttles smooth. I plan on pedaling from start as much as possible. Just curious if its proper behaviour.

Also it's been sitting for quite some time in the rainy willamette valley. Am I able to repack any bearings in there that are probably rusty and lacking grease? I haven't cracked open the case yet to examine.

Thanks for the reply!
 
I am looking to purchase a programming cable
Does the version you have support programming, and does GM have a program available for that specific version? If not, you won't be able to do this. :( If you're not sure, you can ask GM about it at their main Chinese site. If they don't respond (usefully or otherwise), you could try Goldenmotor.ca if they're still around.


so that I can play with the clunk/stuttered start that sometimes happens when pressing the throttle from a stop. I was reading somewhere that this has to do with the hall settings. Does this sound right?

Not the hall "settings" but the hall sensors themselves. If it's a sensored motor and controller, a hall signal or sensor problem means the controller can't tell exactly what position the motor is in, so it can't feed the correct phase current to the correct windings.


Also will ebrake levers be applicable to this motor to improve stopping?

First, if your regular brakes are insufficient to skid your wheels with good tire grip on a surface, I'd vote for improving your brakes first. If you can skid the wheel with them, you can't get any better than that. ;)

The first thing is just replace the pads with KoolStop Salmon, of the right kind designed for your specific type of brake (if you're not sure, KS's website has info on how to choose the right pads). They'll work a lot better, especially if those pads on there now are original, as they've probably hardened up. Then adjust them per the info on SheldonBrown's webpages for your type of brake.


As for applicable, it depends on whether the controller is regen-capable. If it's not, you can open the motor, disconnect hte internal controller, and wire out to an external controller of your choice that has all the features you want.

However, unless you get one with variable regen (like the Phaserunner by ebikes.ca), braking is just on/off at whatever max force the controller is capable of, with no control over it. (some you can choose a level of regen in the setup software or display, but the lever itself doesn't vary this)

Aside from the lack of control it gives you for braking, on/off regen is very hard on the bikes' dropouts and the motor's axle if the regen is sufficient to provide much in the way of stopping power, for almost every motor design out there, because of the very tiny (half your pinky nail or less) surface area that has to transfer all of that torque from motor to frame.

Variable regen means it's just like the way your regular brakes work (except that most regen doesn't go *all* the way to zero and can't hold you there while stopped). Setting this up can be done in multiple ways; thru the brake lever itself, or by engaging with the brake lever and then varying using the throttle, etc. I prefer doing it via the lever since that's already how braking is done, so (assuming you ride bikes generally) the body already knows this and will be doing that in an unthinking emergency stop whether you train yourself to use the throttle for it or not. ;)



make some simple torque arms for my next phase!
Take a look at The Torque Arm Picture Thread for ideas on pinching/clamping dropout plates; much better than a simple torque arm. If you have to go with simple torque arm, make the starting hole slightly smaller than your axle, and very very slowly and carefully hand file the flats out until they so-perfectly-fit your axle flats that you have to tap them onto the axles gently to even get them on, and cannot see any light between the arm flats and the axle flats.

That way you get maximum surface area for torque transfer; normally people have very loosefitting arms and only the very edge of the axle flat where the jagged thread edges are engages the arm at all, which means all that torque goes thru that tiny tiny tiny area. If it doesn't cut thru the arm, it may deform the axle, and allow spinout and destruction of motor wiring or even axle and/or frame. :(


The stutter only happens when throttling from 0, usually for 5 seconds or so until it catches enough to move forward and stop the stalling. If I pedaling up a couple mph first, it throttles smooth. I plan on pedaling from start as much as possible. Just curious if its proper behaviour.

Does it do the same thing when not under load, with the wheel off ground?

Some controllers / motors are sensorless, and those can have a hard time determining motor position until it is rotating above a certain speed, so they may have the problem regardless of load, though they may also start normally from certain positions and stutter from others.

If it only does it when loaded, it might not have enough power to start you from a stop.

That may be the battery dropping in voltage so much under the load that the controller shuts off the motor to prevent damage to the battery, the voltage rising, controller reengaging, and this cycling until the load goes down enough that it doesn't happen anymore. If the problem is worse the emptier the battery is, that's the likely reason.

It could also be poor connections between motor phases and controller, which are likely to be internal to the motor for this GM MP.


Also it's been sitting for quite some time in the rainy willamette valley. Am I able to repack any bearings in there that are probably rusty and lacking grease?
If a bearing is rusty internally, it's damaged and should be replaced, because rust used to be bearing metal (or race metal). ;)

Replacing is typically not difficult, but sometimes requires heating the covers and freezing the new bearings to get them in without damage to them, since you don't want to apply pressure "across" the races thru the bearings. If you can get them in by pressing *only* on the outer race, you can just do it that way.


If water has intruded it could've built up and corroded hall sensors or phase wires (or even windings), and that could be causing your startup issue.
 
I'll reach out to Golden Motors and see if they can tell me which version it is.

How you describe the sensored motors working makes me think that it is sensorless and it just doesn't know where to put power until its spinning.

It does have the same effect with or without load, so that makes me think it's probably not a power issue.

And now I will double check if a full or low battery effects it! And one of the times I rode it, I didn't notice it happening at all, if that is any indication.

The notes on torque arms make perfect sense. The ones I made are in fact not working very well as the motor slipped in the horozontal dropout, so I will look into purchasing or making some better ones based on the thread you mentioned.

Considering this is mostly a fre-ebike, I guess I won't put too much into trying to make this setup something that it isn't. Like upgrading the controller and regen brakes. But I will focus more on the bike itself and see if its something I want to upgrade or if I should get a different base to focus on my ideal logging road/hunting ebike setup when I'm ready.


Thank you for the notes on brakes and ebrakes. They are cantilever, which I've had on my main touring/ATB and when I tune it up, I can skid to a stop on that, so you're right, I should focus on that and it should be enough for my purposes and the power of this setup. I did order some salmon pads. So I'll do that first, and possibly throw on some new cables as well.

I have to replace the headset as well so when I get to that I will look into the motor bearing replacement. I am familiar with the freezing bearing method, so the motors typically have sealed bearings it sounds like?

Thank you so much for your help and such a detailed response!!!
 
Considering this is mostly a fre-ebike, I guess I won't put too much into trying to make this setup something that it isn't. Like upgrading the controller and regen brakes. But I will focus more on the bike itself and see if its something I want to upgrade or if I should get a different base to focus on my ideal logging road/hunting ebike setup when I'm ready.
PIck a bike that does the things you need the bike itself to do, if this one doesn't. :) Then if this motor system will fit it you can move it over; if it doesn't fit or also doesn't do the job, you can pick a new one for it and leave this bike intact for other purposes.

Best way to do these things is to define the complete job the bike has to do for you, under what specific conditions, terrain, etc. Then you can figure out what bike does that best for you, and what modifications you have to make to the bike, if any, to do that, excluding the motor system. Then you can go to a calculator or simulator like those at ebikes.ca to find out how much power it will take for the worst-case parts of the job and conditions. Then you can use that to determine what motor system, controller, and battery will do that job, that will also fit on the bike that does the job, and also has all the other features you need for the job.




Thank you for the notes on brakes and ebrakes. They are cantilever, which I've had on my main touring/ATB and when I tune it up, I can skid to a stop on that, so you're right, I should focus on that and it should be enough for my purposes and the power of this setup. I did order some salmon pads. So I'll do that first, and possibly throw on some new cables as well.
When you do the cables, you should probably replace the housings too; Jagwire is a good cable and housing. (and don't put housings in the open-cable spans between the stops--some people do this for various reasons, and it adds more cable drag that can cause problems with shifters and braking...even worse if you go with continuous lenght of housing for the entire run, bypassing the cable stops on the frame completely).



I have to replace the headset as well so when I get to that I will look into the motor bearing replacement. I am familiar with the freezing bearing method, so the motors typically have sealed bearings it sounds like?

There's a current thread "aheadset" something that has a bunch of useful info for you on that part.

The motor bearings are not always sealed (or not well) but they're cartridge types, not open races like many bicycle wheels have, so tough to repack...but even if they are repackable, the rust will have damaged them, and once damaged bearings will only get worse, with or without grease. Might as well just replace and get it over with ;)

Most likely the motor bearings are 6802z or similar; it's probably stamped on the bearing face or seals, someitmes laser etched into the OD of the outer race. Some use two different sizes, like in this post
 
I was looking at a used Surly Karate Monkey that sounds like it's my perfect bike with or without a motor. Steel, takes big tires, fairly upright MTB geometry, but that's an expensive can of worms, as I'd want to throw a BBSHD or a nice torquey geared hub motor on it as well. I have the battery though I suppose.

My neighbor has a bafang mid-drive, I'll have to see if its the 02 or HD. It's sweet, but the power going into the little 9spd drivetrain kind of unnerves me and it has had a few issues. It's ideal for the terrain I'm after though.

I will definitely do the housings too! I was a mobile bike mechanic for a few years back when. I love tinkering with bikes, but dang was it hard to make money in that business.
This bike is setup with a full housing run to the rear brake but I think it may be designed like that. I really haven't given it my full attention yet. I will look into and see if the housing holders are actually meant for ferrules and an open cable run on top of the top tube.

Ah not sealed bearings, but cartridges. I can dig it. Thanks for the link and the possible bearing model.

And I spent over an hour looking at all those clamping torque arms..... Man. Overwhelmed slightly, but so many good ideas and I will try and design one for my bike because the axle is definitely slipping around in the horizontal dropout. My torque arms are in fact not torque arms and moreso just oversized washers with hose clamps at this point. Confirmed. My buddy has some scrap aluminum and a porta-bandsaw and drill press, so I'm sure I could rig something up fairly decent after a couple tries. I'll mock it up on some wood first.

Thank you amberwolf!
 
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