GoldenMotors Manufacturer

[GoldenMotor]

Philf, you are so damn helpful Your kindness will be rewarded!

 

[philf]

Maybe you can help ME out...

I've recently laced a Golden "Mini Motor" into an Alex DM18 rim, and gone to set it up on a test bike. There are two things that trouble me with the motor I have... The major one being that, with the way it's set up, it was immediately apparent that the power/hall wires have to exit the hub on the same side of the motor as the freewheel in order to spin in the right direction! This was unexpected, and was frankly a pain - I had to remove the hall connector body (and disassemble my newly installed Anderson connectors) in order to be able to thread the wire through the freewheel and mounting washers/nut. This doesn't seem right. If it were a regular hub motor, I could obviously swap phase/hall wires around in order to change the direction of spin, but this is not an option with a geared motor that has a built-in freewheel mechanism.

The other striking thing is that the supplied spacers/washers make the thing WAYYYY too wide to fit a 135mm dropout. Even after some fooling around, I'm still spreading the forks uncomfortably (and have a crazy amount of excess axle sticking out both sides). I decided to pull the wheel for now - I'll try it on a different bike I have that has steel forks. I'm not as worried about bending these the required amount to get this puppy mounted. As it sits, I'll have to dish the wheel significantly to get the rim centered. Are the units shipped in a complete wheel like this?

It makes me uneasy...

 

[GoldenMotor]

Philf, I can't help you with that unless I set up a store in the US.

Anyway our distributor network is already set up in Korea and nearly done in the USA.

 

[philf]

Philf, I can't help you with that unless I set up a store in the US.

Anyway our distributor network is already set up in Korea and nearly done in the USA.

Nobody in Canada yet? Dealing with outfits across the border is sometimes more difficult than dealing with others across the ocean... It's a crap-shoot.

Who actually manufactures the Mini Motor? I"m assuming that it's a resale item, otherwise my question would be dead easy to answer . If you're setting up a presence over here, and are intent on leaving it up to the distributors to sort out questions like this on their own, they ain't gonna be happy with you... You'll be guilty of doing the same thing to them that you say some of your Chinese suppliers are doing to you...

 

[keyne]

I too am interested in how the rear mini motor should be mounted. I am having trouble finding a freewheel that will fit my frame.

 

[dnmun]

do the phase and hall sensor wires really come out on the freewheel side? do they come out on the same side on the front hub too?

see, this is what i was telling yao, get the bad news out front, make the changes, better product with the next iteration of the inventory.

can you post up some pictures phil?

 

[Zoot Katz]

Maybe you can help ME out...

I've recently laced a Golden "Mini Motor" into an Alex DM18 rim, and gone to set it up on a test bike. There are two things that trouble me with the motor I have... The major one being that, with the way it's set up, it was immediately apparent that the power/hall wires have to exit the hub on the same side of the motor as the freewheel in order to spin in the right direction! This was unexpected, and was frankly a pain . . .

I'm afraid it would also have been a pain for any local distributer when I went in and wrapped that kind of stupidity right around their neck.
That's not even laughable. It's assinine.

It makes me uneasy...

Golden Motors, in general, still makes me uneasy. The new stuff sounds to be even worse.
It will be a long time before they see a dime of mine.

 

[HighTekBikes]

Their so called mini motor is a Bafang. Sounds like it's laced into a wheel meant for an ebike with a wide spacing (155mm) for the rear axle. So it will have to be dished quite a bit and limited to 5 gears. Nothing new here.

 

[GoldenMotor]

Yep, it's outsourced. Hence the many problems.

Zootkat : Please go ahead with where you are going to spend your dime on.

 

[GoldenMotor]

Their so called mini motor is a Bafang. Sounds like it's laced into a wheel meant for an ebike with a wide spacing (155mm) for the rear axle. So it will have to be dished quite a bit and limited to 5 gears. Nothing new here.

Our mini motor is not a bafang. Assumptions and more assumptions.

 

[philf]

Yep, it's outsourced. Hence the many problems.

OK. There's a difference between an "outsourced" product and a "private labelled" (resale) product. If your product is outsourced, the implication is that your own engineers designed the thing, but a third party has done the manufacturing for your. If this is the case, then your engineering su..., er, needs help. I think what you have is more a resale item that you've purchased something that isn't up to snuff, and are reselling it.

do the phase and hall sensor wires really come out on the freewheel side?

Yup, they do! And I've discovered that that isn't unusual for at least a couple of manufacturers (resellers?) of these things...

It does beg the question, "What is a Bafang", then...

Sure looks and "smells" like something that came from a common source:

Note that the nylon gears in this puppy have 36 teeth (the Bafangs we've seen on this forum have 28). This would imply an even greater gear reduction (less speed) than a Bafang - though I haven't compared the pinion and ring gear tooth counts because I couldn't quickly locate a picture of one of Knuckle's Bafangs.

And, yes! The biggest problem is that (with all of the supplied spacers/washers in place, the thing DOES fit a 155mm dropout. Not useful for most people...

 

[tostino]

Hahaha, the Bafang is manufactured by 8-fun too, so what are you trying to say golden motor? If out are using them for production of a product you designed, why are they stamping it with their logo, and why does it seem like a replica of their other motors? Telling them "I need a motor that goes slower than the one you are currently offering." does not count as designing the motor, in reference to the gear reduction difference.

If you didn't design it, that's fine. But change the way you are talking about the products you sell.

 

[GoldenMotor]

dude, did you know that 8 is read BA in chinese? and 8-fun's chinese pinyin is Ba Fang... jesus...

 

[BenMoore]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post after a few years of consulting this great forum and after 1.5 great ebike builds of my own!
First, I'd like to echo the view that its excellent that consumers and suppliers (if not actual manufacturers) can communicate like this. So thank you for the opportunity Yao.
I've now been commissioned to build a "cheap, quiet 40 km/h (25 mph)" ebike for the first of many friends (I hope) and am looking at the the GM Mini Vs Keywin's Bafang SWXH (as well as the GM and 9 Continent direct drives) so am very interested in philf's testing/review.
I've found internal pics of two different Bafang models (from dazzassj6 and Knuckles in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7570&hilit=bafang+pics). Knuckles' has some obvious differences to the Mini but dazzassj6's certainly has some familiar looking components. Teeth no. = 36:






There is a power rating difference b/t the GM and the Bafang: GM labels their Mini as "36V, 250W" on their website while its seeming twin in dazzassj6's Bafang is described (by him) as "36v 200W". Knuckles labels his gold-rotored Bafang model at "36V, 250W" - same as Keywin's SWXH?. Could be a difference in motor winding or just some labeling confusion.
Looking at the Bafang/8Fun website, the GM Mini looks most like a black and silver version of the SWX01 model that is also listed as "36V, 250W". Aside from the SWXH (the gold-rotored/Knuckles?) model there is one other rear wheel Bafang model shown, the BMP, but no power rating is listed.

I'd be quite happy to learn that the Mini is a Bafang as they have had good reviews in this forum - its not knowing what I'm dealing with that causes hesitation in purchasing.
The important point, of course, is that GM needs to be clear and honest about what they can offer. Yao, you need to confirm just what position GM is in and what role it can play in helping us develop better ebike kits. Can you be designers and innovators making new products? Or, are you limited to composing kits from previously existing products from manufacturers? Many of us would love to see lighter, quieter, more powerful and more reliable (geared and direct drive) hub motors with programmable regen controllers with adjustable current limits ect, ect but unless word can get though to the producers we're just dreamin'.
From many reports, if GM can just sort out its customer relations, take more responsibility for what it sells and then provide some suitable existing products to this market (eg 135mm rear axled motors) at competitive prices then we will be progressing. Yao, your contributions to this forum suggest that you are indeed improving the performance of GM.

In the meantime, Yao or Philf, can you tell me if the axle geometry on the Mini is such that the shoulder/s can be machined down to fit 135 mm frames (I have access to a lathe)?
Also, does anyone know if suitable metal 36 teeth gears are available anywhere?
- B

 

[tostino]

dude, did you know that 8 is read BA in chinese? and 8-fun's chinese pinyin is Ba Fang... jesus...

Sorry, I don't speak any Chinese. Moderate Japanese speaking ability, but that doesn't help me here.

So no I didn't know that, however, that was not really what my post was about. All I was trying to convey was that if you are selling someone else's product, it is normally a good idea to say so. Instead you were saying the production was outsourced, which leads people to believe it was your design, and you had another company produce it for you.

I have nothing against Golden Motor, I have never purchased anything from you so I couldn't have gotten bad service. All I was trying to say is tell it like it is. I don't think anyone here is going to jump on you for re-selling someone else's product, as long as you say you are and don't imply it is your own design.

 

[GoldenMotor]

But change the way you are talking about the products you sell

Hi,
Yes, just to make things clear, the mould for the entire motor is the same, and everyone uses the same. So 2 years later you see a motor with controller built in, looking exactly the same as our magic pie, and you say we copy them as well??? So if a company sells products from another company, the margin is so huge that it can fund it's research department? Thank you very much, think before you assume...

But anyway, I don't blame you... almost 90% of china's products were copied. Just telling you that we have capable engineers, but lousy factory workers.

 

[Zoot Katz]

It's probably because I'm a round eyed barbarian that I don't appreciate the cultural nuances and references that would inspire somebody to name a hub motor "Magic Pie". Perhaps for Chinese housewives it's attractive but to me it sounds like a bad transportation investment.
If that's the internal code name for the project, fine. But I'd not bring it to the North American market bearing that moniker unless I was selling toys.

Tip: Coal tar, neem oil and sulphur soaps are effective against lice.

 

[philf]

If that's the internal code name for the project, fine. But I'd not bring it to the North American market bearing that moniker unless I was selling toys.

I couldn't agree more, and this goes along with what I posted earlier with respect to the paint job on the thing:

I'm sorry, no matter how it may perform, the finish just makes it look like a toy. If you need to dress-up what would otherwise be a featureless side cover, why not machine (or cast) some REAL vanes into it? There's no question that this puppy is going to need help staying cool, so this would be both a practical and aesthetic improvement.

I should also point out that the word "pie" is often used as a euphemism for "cowpat" (or "steaming pile of shit") in some places. This could be unfortunate.

In the meantime, Yao or Philf, can you tell me if the axle geometry on the Mini is such that the shoulder/s can be machined down to fit 135 mm frames (I have access to a lathe)?

I'll be free of visitors and other obligations in the next day or two, so should have time to post some measurements showing how this motor actually sits in the frame. I can tell you that the overall width of the thing doesn't leave much wiggle room. There's a drawing on the GM site (created by "Tom" at GM) that provides a rough idea of the shape: http://www.goldenmotor.com/hubmotors/hubmotor-R_WHEEL.pdf.

Unfortunately, Tom didn't include all of the measurements you'd actually need to know (accurately) how truly wide it is where it meets the dropouts. He's recently posted a 3D diagram, but I can't open it as it's in an EASM format only useful to someone who has a CAD application that can deal with that.

The other thing I can say with certainty is that any "excess" that can be removed will be from threaded collar that is intended to hold the disk brake rotor. From my aborted test fitting into my chromoly frame, that much was obvious. If this is performed, then the wheel will have to be dished significantly to center the rim. I don't have spokes handy that are of an appropriate length to allow this - so I'll be trying this motor out on another bike with a steel frame that I don't mind bending.

 

[Gow864]

"Magic Pie" could quickly end up a "Tragic pie"

Gow.

 

[philf]

"Magic Pie" could quickly end up a "Tragic pie"

I didn't even get STARTED on what the word "Magic" does for first impressions. Words like "Super", "Magic", "Miracle", etc., should be dropped from the marketing lexicon as far as I'm concerned. Any encounter that I've had with a product that includes the word "Miracle" in its name, for example, has ended in stunned amazement. The sort of amazement one feels when realizing that, "it's a miracle that the thing didn't self-destruct sooner than it did". (We'll pretend we don't recognize the fundamental misuse of the word to begin with).

"Magic" ain't far off...

 

[Reid Welch]

I sense that GM's writer was angry and somewhat sarcastic, for justified reason. Same mold. Sounds like truth to me.

Paint job instead of a new mold with 3d fins? That is paint and it is superficial styling.
Make new molds? Do you know if any hub motors are presently sold with molded-in fins? Do they run cooler?


I think he's angry, and not without =some= reason. I don't think he handled the PR so very well, but some responses above are positively vitriolic.

Gimme a break, says Chinese maker. "OK, we break you" says American-want-it-all-for-cheap customer who complains, sometimes unfairly.


It is a difficult business and the products are essentially hand made. QC is China's weak point, sort of like Japan before the War, in its export of veritable garbage. It was an international joke, how bad Japanese products were made. Then came improvements wrought by war experience and determination.

China is determined. We are determined to eat cheeseburgers, not design and build precision, laced, hub motor wheels.

Give the man a break. And remember: this is not his language, and his job may be a wee bit more stressful than yours.
Give him slack and be nice, people? Even you all who got somewhat skinned? WWJD?

Atheist Reid

 

[davespicer]

QC is China's weak point, sort of like Japan before the War...

Presuming you meant WWII, I'd extend the "lower quality" period into the late 1950s. As a kid in that time frame (born 1948), I remember that saying a product was "made in Japan" was quite an insult. But I haven't encountered that phrase in a negative way since Jefferson Airplane's "Greasy Heart", and that was 40+ years ago.

Holy crap, the years do pass... is it time for my nap yet?

 

[TylerDurden]

Manufacturers/Suppliers inside China have a steep learning curve to effectively address open markets.

Both sides have a lot to learn from each other, to mutual benefit. Earnest dialogue from each, will foster the development of higher quality goods... win-win.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

Miracle Motors slogan:

-if the motors any good...
it's a miracle

 

[Anonymous]

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