Eric G
1 kW
I second that...Good Luck Matt !!!!!
got a criminal citation- e-bikes are unknown in FL court!
- Thread starter Matt Gruber
- Start date
Matt Gruber
1 MW
Thanks guys!
some items of note
1. long wait for trial- 14 months
2. FL law contradicts HR727(FL requires human power on bike path) if i follow FL law i'd have to ride in traffic! too dangerous imo.
3. arraingment is where i'm formally charged and a plea is entered. I will challenge the charge and ask the court to present law that an e-bike is a M V. Will motion for "not-guilty" judgement. But this is unusual at a arraignment.
Win or lose i don't expect to use an ev for a long time. But i will be learning the ropes, and someday i may try again. i'll call the police and ask if my cop still works here. if she goes, 99% of my worry is gone. the law doesn't really matter when a cop can arrest me on bogus charges. Being forced to ride a vette is not any sort of punishment.
some items of note
1. long wait for trial- 14 months
2. FL law contradicts HR727(FL requires human power on bike path) if i follow FL law i'd have to ride in traffic! too dangerous imo.
3. arraingment is where i'm formally charged and a plea is entered. I will challenge the charge and ask the court to present law that an e-bike is a M V. Will motion for "not-guilty" judgement. But this is unusual at a arraignment.
Win or lose i don't expect to use an ev for a long time. But i will be learning the ropes, and someday i may try again. i'll call the police and ask if my cop still works here. if she goes, 99% of my worry is gone. the law doesn't really matter when a cop can arrest me on bogus charges. Being forced to ride a vette is not any sort of punishment.
At every opportunity enter a motion to dismiss on the grounds that this is not in the public interest, that the charge is vexatious & any other legal arguments that you or a lawyer can dream up. You must do your homework & don't be afraid to throw everything & the kitchen sink at them as a possible cause for dismissal, leave no stone unturned however remote. You never know what may stick.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
dismissal isn't at all helpful. that will just free up that cop to arrest me. If i had to ride my mbike(if i didn't have 3 cars) and it was dismissed, i would have to APPEAL it and DEMAND a trial.
unless i'm found not guilty i can be charged over and over. dismissal is great for 1 time events. like a guy gets in a fist fight at a bar with a stranger. it will likely never happen again. But riding my mbike would be repeated over & over. I have NO legal protection with dismissal.
.
i really want a trial so i can cross-examine that cop, and expose her as a fool. Once they figure this out, they will likely dismiss, and i've gained nothing. i sure won't be able to ride my mbike without fear of jail.
but there is hope! soon i'll have my 61 on the road. 2 vettes are better than 1.
unless i'm found not guilty i can be charged over and over. dismissal is great for 1 time events. like a guy gets in a fist fight at a bar with a stranger. it will likely never happen again. But riding my mbike would be repeated over & over. I have NO legal protection with dismissal.
.
i really want a trial so i can cross-examine that cop, and expose her as a fool. Once they figure this out, they will likely dismiss, and i've gained nothing. i sure won't be able to ride my mbike without fear of jail.
but there is hope! soon i'll have my 61 on the road. 2 vettes are better than 1.
It's entirely possible that even the prosecution may move to dismiss, then you'll know right away they don't have a leg to stand on. But once the ball is rolling they'll stick it out to the end.
I don't think you're gonna get what you want.
Are you really willing to risk a criminal record (if I've followed this correctly) just to prove a point?
Discretion is the better part of valour, live to fight another day.
Then you can attach pedals & meet whatever other legal requirements but I would have have thought the immediate objective is to beat this by whatever means necessary. The move to dismiss is just one more arrow in the quiver, you can't afford to risk not using all the tools at your disposal.
This aint no party,
This aint no disco,
This aint no foolin around.
I don't think you're gonna get what you want.
Are you really willing to risk a criminal record (if I've followed this correctly) just to prove a point?
Discretion is the better part of valour, live to fight another day.
Then you can attach pedals & meet whatever other legal requirements but I would have have thought the immediate objective is to beat this by whatever means necessary. The move to dismiss is just one more arrow in the quiver, you can't afford to risk not using all the tools at your disposal.
This aint no party,
This aint no disco,
This aint no foolin around.
TylerDurden
100 GW
^^^I agree.^^^Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:
If you get to trial, be prepared to:
1) Do the best you can to convince the court that the Mbike is an e-bike and significantly differs from a go-ped, moped and "scooter or scooter-like" vehicle, whilst assuring the court that permitting your use of the Mbike will not set a precedent that opens the door for all scooters to operate on open roads. You will say your piece, but you will lose.
2) Accept your conviction and subsequent criminal-record with respect for the court.
3) Enjoy your nice cars.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
The point is e-bikes are legal as defined in 316.003-2. I'm sure a jury would apply the law.
I'm charged with(got notice in mail)
NO MV REGISTRATION
(nothing about pedals or anything else)
Of course i can't expect the court to scold the cop and call her an idiot.
The law is on my side, but they win by intimidation. Even mopeds are NOT M V's.
I'm not sure how a conviction would affect me? Of course i would appeal.
Even if i lost. So there it is, convicted of not registering an e-bike. What does this mean? Come on guys, what is the downside here? What am i missing?
The ball is already rolling. Cops stubborn. SA silent.
I'm charged with(got notice in mail)
NO MV REGISTRATION
(nothing about pedals or anything else)
Of course i can't expect the court to scold the cop and call her an idiot.
The law is on my side, but they win by intimidation. Even mopeds are NOT M V's.
I'm not sure how a conviction would affect me? Of course i would appeal.
Even if i lost. So there it is, convicted of not registering an e-bike. What does this mean? Come on guys, what is the downside here? What am i missing?
The ball is already rolling. Cops stubborn. SA silent.
TylerDurden
100 GW
E-bikes are legal, but your Mbike seems more like a scooter than a bike. That is the angle the SA will take.
A criminal conviction may not be a big issue for you. But, if you want to apply for work or volunteer positions, get cheap insurance, borrow money, run for political office, babysit, etc. etc. etc... a conviction will be a major speed-bump.
I personally think your bike is great; and the fact you would use it for most everything rather than the car, is worthy of a public commendation.
If I were in your position, I would:
Have my lawyer contact the SA, and have the charge reduced to a traffic violation on the condition: I will put some kind of functional pedals on the Mbike, so it conforms close enough to the state/fed definition of e-bike.
It is very important to give the other parties a way to feel like they have won. AND they will feel confident that they have not opened a door they cannot close, with regard to scooters.
Then, I could ride anywhere without fear of repeat harassment by local police.
A criminal conviction may not be a big issue for you. But, if you want to apply for work or volunteer positions, get cheap insurance, borrow money, run for political office, babysit, etc. etc. etc... a conviction will be a major speed-bump.
I personally think your bike is great; and the fact you would use it for most everything rather than the car, is worthy of a public commendation.
If I were in your position, I would:
Have my lawyer contact the SA, and have the charge reduced to a traffic violation on the condition: I will put some kind of functional pedals on the Mbike, so it conforms close enough to the state/fed definition of e-bike.
It is very important to give the other parties a way to feel like they have won. AND they will feel confident that they have not opened a door they cannot close, with regard to scooters.
Then, I could ride anywhere without fear of repeat harassment by local police.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
thanks!
FL defines a Motorized Scooter, as NOT having a seat.
.
can't be that.
.
e-bikes are scorned in FL. cops don't apply the law. judge could call it a rocket(is says that on the box) and prohibit it.
That is why i am confident i'd win with a jury. They would APPLY the LAW.
FL defines a Motorized Scooter, as NOT having a seat.
.
can't be that.
.
e-bikes are scorned in FL. cops don't apply the law. judge could call it a rocket(is says that on the box) and prohibit it.
That is why i am confident i'd win with a jury. They would APPLY the LAW.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
so i called GEICO 1-800-861-8380
they DO NOT LOOK AT CRIMINAL RECORDS.
If it appears on my DMV record they would see it, but as it has NO POINTS it would not likely have an effect.
.
it is really a paperwork violation, not a moving violation.
.
guys,
i am defending myself, don't act like i can snap my fingers and end this case.
I wrote 3 letters and they won't budge.
ANY OTHER DOWNSIDE TO LOSING?(high rates was my only worry so far, from tylers list)
they DO NOT LOOK AT CRIMINAL RECORDS.
If it appears on my DMV record they would see it, but as it has NO POINTS it would not likely have an effect.
.
it is really a paperwork violation, not a moving violation.
.
guys,
i am defending myself, don't act like i can snap my fingers and end this case.
I wrote 3 letters and they won't budge.
ANY OTHER DOWNSIDE TO LOSING?(high rates was my only worry so far, from tylers list)
Lessss
1 MW
find a retired judge, visit him and get his opinion.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
lessss
i'm going to visit the real judge next friday and get his opinion.
he can:
1. schedule trial
2. dismiss
3. find me not guilty
He can't find me guilty!
WHAT A DEAL! NO DOWNSIDE RISK!
i'm going to visit the real judge next friday and get his opinion.
he can:
1. schedule trial
2. dismiss
3. find me not guilty
He can't find me guilty!
WHAT A DEAL! NO DOWNSIDE RISK!
Rassy
1 MW
Matt, you may get off, but don't expect too much. Years ago I received a bogus reckless driving ticket (mainly because I was driving a '57 Skyliner with the top down). Not only did I not want to hire a substitute teacher while I was in court, I would lose my school bus driver's license if found guilty. So I went to the DA to get the ticket tossed. Well, not only was the case not dropped, but in court the DA had the ticket tossed out on a minor technicality of how it was written, so that the city would not get in trouble because of their dumb cop. Good part that the ticket was tossed, bad part that there was no discussion or exoneration of what I did.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
one thing,
i'm really glad it has no pedals!
as u recall, the cop said if it had pedals it would be a MOPED and need a tag.
Her commander said he would accept pedals-no tag!. So in reality i've made lots of progress! If i had any reason to ride an e-bike, my re-design could be ok. And who knows? Years from now i might re-build it, and be able to cite THIS CASE to my advantage. :lol:
i see a happy ending, even if i lose; can't beat that!
1. no lawyer needed
2. criminal record for me is better than a DMV record.
3. chance to humiliate cop in cross examination!
4. modest fine $120 if i lose
5. great entertainment! well, not so great, but worth my efforts!
i'm really glad it has no pedals!
as u recall, the cop said if it had pedals it would be a MOPED and need a tag.
Her commander said he would accept pedals-no tag!. So in reality i've made lots of progress! If i had any reason to ride an e-bike, my re-design could be ok. And who knows? Years from now i might re-build it, and be able to cite THIS CASE to my advantage. :lol:
i see a happy ending, even if i lose; can't beat that!
1. no lawyer needed
2. criminal record for me is better than a DMV record.
3. chance to humiliate cop in cross examination!
4. modest fine $120 if i lose
5. great entertainment! well, not so great, but worth my efforts!
Matt Gruber
1 MW
for my arraignment friday on charge of
NO MV REG.
I have a document from the tag office that i will give the judge that states:
"motorized bicycles...are not registered"
Motion for a summary judgement of Not Guilty, your honor.
This is what it all boils down to.
NO MV REG.
I have a document from the tag office that i will give the judge that states:
"motorized bicycles...are not registered"
Motion for a summary judgement of Not Guilty, your honor.
This is what it all boils down to.
Matt I really do wish you best of luck with this but you are trying to convolute the law to benefit your side. E-bikes are not scorned in Florida. I have many friends that ride including me all over Florida and we never have any such problems what so ever because our machines conform to the law.
FS 316.003-2 defines a bicycle, FS 316.003-22 defines your vehicle, a motorcycle. You can hem-haw all you want about how you can push/walk/whatever your machine without pedals but the fact is it does not conform to the common conception of a bicycle as is the intention of the definition per statute. The statutes allows power assisted bicycles. If your machine is shown to the jury as an exhibit, it will be obvious the motor is its primary and only reasonable means of power. It is a motor vehicle and requires registration in order to operate on the public roadways in Florida. The officer that sited you was incorrect about it being a moped if it were equipped with pedals, as long as it cannot exceed 20 mph but she was right in citing you for not have a registered motor vehicle IMO.
If you were to bring this to court here in my area, the judge would eat you alive.
FS 316.003-2 defines a bicycle, FS 316.003-22 defines your vehicle, a motorcycle. You can hem-haw all you want about how you can push/walk/whatever your machine without pedals but the fact is it does not conform to the common conception of a bicycle as is the intention of the definition per statute. The statutes allows power assisted bicycles. If your machine is shown to the jury as an exhibit, it will be obvious the motor is its primary and only reasonable means of power. It is a motor vehicle and requires registration in order to operate on the public roadways in Florida. The officer that sited you was incorrect about it being a moped if it were equipped with pedals, as long as it cannot exceed 20 mph but she was right in citing you for not have a registered motor vehicle IMO.
If you were to bring this to court here in my area, the judge would eat you alive.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
Thanks v-tach! i need cop views to be prepared. That really helps! That's why I need a jury trial. A jury will apply the law as it is written.
.
the Tag & Title office says it is an e-bike.
Can't get a tag.
is it a motorcycle?
1: mc MUST have a VIN. No exceptions! I asked for a mc tag. Can't get it!
2. it goes under 20 mph
3. no gas engine- name a single popular mc w/o a gas engine?
4. sold as a bike with a bike serial #
5. easily propelled under Human Power.(will demonstrate this technique in court for dumb asses that think human power is ONLY pedals) has no reverse! MUST use H.P. to back up!
can't be a motorcycle according to tag office.
Can't get a tag unless the court ORDERS dmv to create an ELECTRIC BICYCLE tag.
I stil expect to lose because of people like v-tach- unable to read and understand the law as it is written. If cops want pedals, let them change to law to read PEDALS, so any citizen can look up the law and know what is required without going to court. Duh!
One cop said ALL MC'S CAN MOVE ON H.P. SO THEY CAN BE CALLED E-BIKES?
answer, NO they have a VIN, go>20mph, use gas. they can't.
.
the Tag & Title office says it is an e-bike.
Can't get a tag.
is it a motorcycle?
1: mc MUST have a VIN. No exceptions! I asked for a mc tag. Can't get it!
2. it goes under 20 mph
3. no gas engine- name a single popular mc w/o a gas engine?
4. sold as a bike with a bike serial #
5. easily propelled under Human Power.(will demonstrate this technique in court for dumb asses that think human power is ONLY pedals) has no reverse! MUST use H.P. to back up!
can't be a motorcycle according to tag office.
Can't get a tag unless the court ORDERS dmv to create an ELECTRIC BICYCLE tag.
I stil expect to lose because of people like v-tach- unable to read and understand the law as it is written. If cops want pedals, let them change to law to read PEDALS, so any citizen can look up the law and know what is required without going to court. Duh!
One cop said ALL MC'S CAN MOVE ON H.P. SO THEY CAN BE CALLED E-BIKES?
answer, NO they have a VIN, go>20mph, use gas. they can't.
xyster
10 MW
Gruber, are there provisions related to mobility scooters you could use? Or are all those pedal-less mobility scoots in Florida illegal to operate in public too?
The two tandem wheels puts him out of the definition for an electrical personal assist mobility device according to Florida Statutes.
FS 316.003 (83) ELECTRIC PERSONAL ASSISTIVE MOBILITY DEVICE.--Any self-balancing, two-nontandem-wheeled device, designed to transport only one person, with an electric propulsion system with average power of 750 watts (1 horsepower), the maximum speed of which, on a paved level surface when powered solely by such a propulsion system while being ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 miles per hour. Electric personal assistive mobility devices are not vehicles as defined in this section.
FS 316.003 (83) ELECTRIC PERSONAL ASSISTIVE MOBILITY DEVICE.--Any self-balancing, two-nontandem-wheeled device, designed to transport only one person, with an electric propulsion system with average power of 750 watts (1 horsepower), the maximum speed of which, on a paved level surface when powered solely by such a propulsion system while being ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 miles per hour. Electric personal assistive mobility devices are not vehicles as defined in this section.
xyster
10 MW
v_tach said:
Any self-balancing, two-nontandem-wheeled device,
sounds like the Segway exception. The "two-nontandem" wheels part means it doesn't apply to three and four-wheeled mobility scooters. I'm wondering if there's something in any mobility scooter exception that Gruber could use in his defense.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
as a layman,xyster said:
NO, they CAN'T be moved on H.P.
They have a safety brake that locks it. Must use reverse to back up.
So they don't meet the e-bike 316.003-2 def.
.
But as we all now know, cops have their own coplaw. Under coplaw, they are allowed on sidewalks here.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
i've reached my decision!
there isn't anything they can say tomorrow that will make me park my cars again and ride an e-bike.
did enjoy the 260 grocery trips! great fun and well worth the experience despite the unhappy ending.
there isn't anything they can say tomorrow that will make me park my cars again and ride an e-bike.
did enjoy the 260 grocery trips! great fun and well worth the experience despite the unhappy ending.
numberonekiwi
10 W
well it after midday here on Friday so good luck to you Matt in court and I hope for the best outcome
just a late thought but if you could get 100's of people on ebikes to all rock up to court in protest what would happen - cops give them all tickets or leave them alone like they do with M/C gangs in large numbers ???
just a late thought but if you could get 100's of people on ebikes to all rock up to court in protest what would happen - cops give them all tickets or leave them alone like they do with M/C gangs in large numbers ???
Lock
100 MW
v_tach said:
Cool. Must go now and put together my own one-seater Ezekiel's Wheel:
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