got a criminal citation- e-bikes are unknown in FL court!

[Matt Gruber]

called deland court clerk:
trial date July 6
got the judges name and SA.
tight lipped clerk won't give advice, but let it slip that 3 can dismiss:
1. cop
2. SA(will start here 1st)
3. judge

Will carefully prepare my letter,
and go to DMV for a signed statement w/pic & receipt.

BTW, i won't get a written notice until ~ june 21

 

[v_tach]

Matt if the SA does not drop the citation and you find yourself in court, its unlikely you'll find much sympathy from the judge however you'll likely encounter leniency if you are reasonable. Court costs and withholding adjudication are a possible outcome.

You will likely only annoy the judge with the claim that its still human powered simply by pushing it or shuffling your feet while seated. Judges typically are not naive.

The bottom line is your machine is not legal on the public roadways in the state of Florida. You can hem-haw about 316.003 (2) all you want but if your machine doesn't have pedals, it is classified as a motorcycle. If you get into specific terms or the lack of (such as 316.003 not mentioning pedal for bicycles), the judge will simply remark about the intent of the law.

I do wish you the best of luck and hope you can avoid court altogether. Perhaps the judges in your community are different but over here in Tampa you would be in for a very difficult time pleading your case.

 

[Instant Karma]

Never know when it comes to court stuff. A trial court judge adjudicated my complaint against a crooked company I once worked at, I thought I had overwhelming evidence co-workers statements, papers, etc. the manager who appeared on the company's behalf and was a crook had a thick accent and name ending in o (figure it out) and lo and behold the trial court judge had a similar sounding name and an even thicker accent than the crooked manager, guess who won the adjudication and it took about a few seconds for this so-called judge to decide. Not me...

 

[Matt Gruber]

people buy cars as they don't want to walk.
people buy e-bikes as they don't want to pedal.
i've already lost as i'm banned.

washed my corvette and it looks really NICE! Not hard to like ~400HP. By july my mbike will be a mixed memory. If the SA won't drop it, i plan to drop the e-bike idea. Pretend to pedal? Too juvinile.

 

[Lowell]

people buy cars as they don't want to walk.
people buy e-bikes as they don't want to pedal.
i've already lost as i'm banned.

washed my corvette and it looks really NICE! Not hard to like ~400HP. By july my mbike will be a mixed memory. If the SA won't drop it, i plan to drop the e-bike idea. Pretend to pedal? Too juvinile.

400hp is nice, but 600hp is better 8)
Of course the guys that I've built 800+hp cars for say the same thing to me :lol:

Nothing wrong with pretending to pedal.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=922
With the cranks tied horizontal and my feet on the pegs I don't even notice the pedals anymore, and I can weight the inside peg in corners which is so much better for handling. But if I should be so unfortunate to get an evil stare from a cop I can still move the cranks in ~1/2 circles which should be enough to convince anyone it's a bicycle at a distance.

 

[Matt Gruber]

going from a 1 hp e-bike to even a 66 VW is dramatic.

 

[Eric G]

GOOD LUCK!!! on the 6th of July Matt...Damn cops got nuthin' better to do than pester good folk.

 

[Matt Gruber]

NEW plan:

Human Power:
i will drop the foot shuffling(does sound lame)

Focus on being able to walk it.
Let's see who can guess my argument.
(Hint, Think: Traffic Safety,
Hint #2 LVC)

 

[Lessss]

Not all bikes have pedals
http://www.jgm.nu/image/cyclelog/SpringcykelthePremiereRide_8CA6/IMG_44773.jpg



http://inventorspot.com/files/images/treadmillbike.jpg

http://www.phys.uri.edu/~tony/bicycle/draisien.gif

http://www.bikeforest.com/velocipede_soldier.jpg

How well does you bike takes hills? You can argue that the human power comes in with you striding the bike up hills as the motor is too weak to take it up hills at speed.

 

[Matt Gruber]

Not all bikes have pedals
http://www.jgm.nu/image/cyclelog/SpringcykelthePremiereRide_8CA6/IMG_44773.jpg



http://inventorspot.com/files/images/treadmillbike.jpg

http://www.phys.uri.edu/~tony/bicycle/draisien.gif

http://www.bikeforest.com/velocipede_soldier.jpg

How well does you bike takes hills? You can argue that the human power comes in with you striding the bike up hills as the motor is too weak to take it up hills at speed.

Thanks Lessss!
Excellent!

 

[mvadventure]

I wish I could simply say $*@# happens and let it go but I bleed for your situation.
My wife and I have used our electric scooters, seats, no pedals, for three or four years while traveling by boat. We ALWAYS use sidewalks when possible and in FL, GA and SC have never even been questioned by the police whether they were in a car, horse or on foot. Exchanging pleasantries is as far as our conversations ever went.
But, until recently I also operated a four passenger LSEV (golf cart) equipped with ALL safety equipment and in order to operate in it was necessary to leave my subdivision (gated). Eventually my HOA decided even the subdivision was off limits and getting a license tag was way too much hassle as it required trailering it to a weigh station and then to the DMV office and putting Low Speed Placards all over it. This would have given me legal OK for streets to 35 MPH but my subdivision has 37 MPH speed limits. I sold the brand new cart on eBay and took a 2K hit.
So, when riding my beach bike with the Crystalyte Cruiser motor and 48 volts of power I do not exceed 20 MPH and carry a copy of the FL law in my battery bag, in my tool pouch.
I do ride the bike paths and occasionally spin the pedal crank, a little more often if I see the SO patrolling. I'm also careful when I pass another bike or someone walking to pedal a little .
One of the advantages of going less than twenty is I can listen to the radio and get more range.
This doesn't mean that once in awhile I don't jump it up to 30MPH just for the heck of it, it just means I look carefully before I do.
Mike, Palm Coast, FL

 

[mvadventure]

Matt,
I just happened to think, which by itself can be dangerous, that when you speak with the powers that you consider the argument of selective enforcement.

For three weeks a year it's impossible to do business in Daytona unless it's motorcycle related. Even buying a piece of furniture on US 1 is just about impossible as conversation is drowned out by the never ending roar of the motorcycles. Think about how quiet it would be, how much less polluting it would be, if Daytona went after EV' business only half as hard as the motorcycles. The cops don't hardly enforce the muffler laws now despite their "best efforts" as reported in the paper yet they have time to worry about a non polluting, silent, EV.

Each year motorcycle deaths hover in the double digit bracket which is probably more than EV's suffer nationwide in a year. It would be great to see that new Harley dealership on US 1 at I95 convert to electric bikes, look at all the lives that could be saved.

Mike, Palm Coast, FL

 

[Matt Gruber]

Not all bikes have pedals
http://www.jgm.nu/image/cyclelog/SpringcykelthePremiereRide_8CA6/IMG_44773.jpg



http://inventorspot.com/files/images/treadmillbike.jpg

http://www.phys.uri.edu/~tony/bicycle/draisien.gif

http://www.bikeforest.com/velocipede_soldier.jpg

How well does you bike takes hills? You can argue that the human power comes in with you striding the bike up hills as the motor is too weak to take it up hills at speed.

Thanks Lessss!
Excellent!

i've moved the 4 pics up to my #1 argument at DMV. Thanks again lessss!
#2 is if an e-bike CAN'T be moved, a dead battery means a blocked street and a wrecker.

 

[Lessss]

The law doesn't state that the "human power" must be simultaneous with the motor power either, or does it?

The only thing you need to worry about is if the law specifically classes a bicycle as a device with pedals. In which case you need to humblyy point out that such a classification neglects the above mentioned bicycles which were bicycles before what we now think of as a bicycle.

 

[TylerDurden]

That approach seems like it'll just piss off the judge.

This is a rigged game and Matt don't belong to the club (ABA).


OK, if it were ME...

I would correct the "problem": by making the bike operable by pedals, even if I had to get a new frame.

Then, have MY LAWYER call the SA and make a deal to have the charge reduced to a traffic violation; saving the court, the cop, the SA and everybody else time and $$. Good lawyers do this a lot.


:?

 

[Matt Gruber]

tyler
u miss the point.
i'm pleading my case to DMV-they side with me by phone.
if they provide a letter
IT IS STREET LEGAL WITH NO TAG
there is no case.

 

[Matt Gruber]

(2) BICYCLE.--Every vehicle propelled solely by human power, and every motorized bicycle propelled by a combination of human power and an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels, and including any device generally recognized as a bicycle though equipped with two front or two rear wheels. The term does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position or a scooter or similar device. No person under the age of 16 may operate or ride upon a motorized bicycle.


DMV, i have learned, has a manual to refer to. That could help or hurt, but, it it THEIR job to determine this, not a judge.
the sargent told me to bring it to DMV and get a decision.

 

[Lessss]

Here are some more

http://www.ivca-online.org/images/DSCN1871v2.jpg
http://www.expo-monet.com/painting/cm118.jpg
http://www.potku.fi/keposti/keposti112000/jan_tomas.jpg
http://www.potku.fi/keposti/keposti112000/esla_pp.jpg
http://www.potku.fi/keposti/keposti112000/velocipedes.jpg
http://www.shelter-systems.com/images/wood-bike.jpg
http://cobbers.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/wooden-bike.jpg
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Images/Models/Full/15714.jpg

Velocities were perilous indeed, average speed might be more than 10 mph.

 

[Matt Gruber]

got 2 nice ones! Law requires a seat, so i passed on those w/o.
Thanks Lessss!

 

[Matt Gruber]

BTW
cop said if it had pedals
it would be a MOPED
and still need a TAG

 

[safe]

The term does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position or a scooter or similar device.

"The 25 inch Seat Rule?"

Bizarre... however, that seems to be a direct attack on the recumbent since they are the ones that have low seats. They have indirectly banned recumbents.

Hmmmm... maybe if you had a "Road Racer" style bike like mine you would have passed? My seat height is about 28" and I'm easily visible in traffic and appear the same as a motorcycle. It seems like the laws there are simply unfriendly towards electric vehicles.

In Missouri the "moped / electric bike" law is so lenient that you can go all the way up to 3 horsepower and you don't even need to bother with pedals.

...but if you tried to put a "clutch" on your bike THEN YOU ARE IN TROUBLE!!! :wink: (every place has it's "weirdness")

 

[Matt Gruber]

seat OK. 27"
Fl has great law!
no power limit
no pedals
shifting OK
i plan to ask about 'bents, what is the highest portion?
.
it is foolish to think every cop knows every law. wise e-bikers carry a copy

 

[Lowell]

seat OK. 27"
Fl has great law!
no power limit
no pedals
shifting OK
i plan to ask about 'bents, what is the highest portion?
.
it is foolish to think every cop knows every law. wise e-bikers carry a copy

Wow! So you could ride a multi gear, unlimited power, no pedal bike?

 

[Mathurin]

What I understand of seat height and wheel size rules is they're made so that children's bikes get classed as toys rather then vehicles. This allows children to ride their bikes on the sidewalks instead of having to ride in the streets like the other vehicles. Seems fair, since I wouldn't expect a child to understand how to operate in a vehicular way, and it's unreasonable for teens/adults not to do so.

 

[Matt Gruber]

seat OK. 27"
Fl has great law!
no power limit
no pedals
shifting OK
i plan to ask about 'bents, what is the highest portion?
.
it is foolish to think every cop knows every law. wise e-bikers carry a copy

Wow! So you could ride a multi gear, unlimited power, no pedal bike?

That remains to be seen. If i win, i plan to buy a bike, remove pedals, hook gearmotor to chain.(if DMV says yes). First i'll show DMV my mbike, if OK, then psev, if OK then my lowracer..........

Once i tried to cancel a R.E. contract, it had a clear cancellation clause, but my lawyer said no judge would enforce the contract. so i lost my deposit. Being legally right doesn't always mean a sane person would dare to test the local custom.

anyway, the "not more than 20 mph"
is a serious restriction for u, lucky for me i'm happy at 12-20.