* * * Group Battery Purchase * * *

[safe]

Group Battery Purchase

We are getting to a point where LiFePO4 prices are coming down and our collective desire is going up. By using the power of collective bargaining we should be able to find some way to create a "Group Battery Purchase" where we can get the price down because of volume.

Let me first apologize in advance for the people here that make battery building and selling a business. The people who would likely go in on a group purchase are those that post here regularly and are very knowledgable about all aspects of this technology. The "public" will need to buy pre-configured battery packs, but many of us here are nearly manufacturers ourselves in our depth of research and knowledge. So what we are doing is not for the "common man".

Patrick has presented an ability to deliver these LiFePO4 Cylindrical Cells (40138) under the condition that a bulk purchase of 100 can be done at a price of $30 each.

Capacity: 10Ah
Volt: 3.3v
Dimension(mm): 40*138mm
Weight(g): 400
Standard Discharging: 1.0C
Quick Discharging: 3.0C
Max Discharging: 10.0C
Cycle Life: >1000Times
Temperature(Discharge): -20~75
Storage Temperature: 0~45
Self-Discharge (Month): <5%
Energy Density wh/L: 170
Energy Density wh/Kg: 80
Initial Internal Impedance<6m

http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/yesa001/product-detaildqSmjwhOPfco/China-LiFePO4-Cylindrical-Cell-40138-.html

I notice on this link that they say the minimum to order direct from China is 10 pieces, but they don't say the price.

A Two Stage Process

As I see it there is a two stage process that needs to take place:

First... it's necessary that collectively we identify the absolutely best deal that can be found. If the best deal is through Patrick then that's great and we can go forward. If another deal is found that might have counter balancing conditions (like a very high volume restriction) then we collectively need to cross that bridge when we get there.

Second..., once the best deal is found, if a number of people are required to make up a high volume order we need to get first a pledge of interest and later that needs to be followed with some more concrete $$$ to prove that this is going to happen. We might want to require an advance of 10% of the purchase price so if someone backs out the remaining cells can be turned around without anyone feeling hurt. (other than the person that backed out, but that's their problem) The other option is to somehow make the money transfer done collectively all at once... I'm not sure how that might be done, but if Patrick was involved he could probably use his business to do the accounting side of it.

Feel free to comment on any aspect of this process or present a deal that you might have found...

 

[safe]

PingBattery

http://myworld.ebay.com/pingping227/

http://stores.ebay.com/PingBattery_W0QQ_trksidZp284Q2em158QQtZkm

24V 15AH LiFePO4 Electric Scooter E Bike Li-Fe Battery!
8 lbs Small Light Safe Long Life Leading Technology US $199.00

36V 20AH Electric Scooter E Bike Li-Fe LiFePO4 Battery
15 lb and small,Leading Tech,Brand !New! !!No Reserve!! US $419.00

LiFePO4 Electric Scooter E Bike Li-Fe Battery 48V 10AH!
10 lbs, SMALL, Safe, Long Life, Leading Technology NR! US $249.00

36V 15AH Electric Scooter E Bike Li-Fe LiFePO4 Battery
11 lbs small light green leading technology NO RESERVE! US $269.00

These prices suggest that over in China the price of LiFePO4 is dropping fast.
From the reviews this vendor seems like they are not a rip off.

PingBattery this is an opportunity for you to sell your product and
interact with people who are very much into this technology.

 

[albie]

Where would we be able to get the BMS for these packs?

 

[recumbent]

Wow, That is one sweet deal at a very desireable time

:? However, Yesa sells these at $35 each (month ago) without buying 100 at a time. Also, we were told by a US seller that some of these from China are seconds that didn't make the grade and are almost a year old, this is why there is no MFG date markings on the ouside cover. I don't know how much of this is true, or these particular cells either. BUT... Shipping from China alone is $180 for 32 cells.
I'm all for saving money and definately buying 32 of these wonderfully designed cells in a month. But still leaning towards buying from our local North American brothers (who post here)... for a few reasons.
a) We save $$$ on shipping charges
b) We support our countrymen and have closer ties if we have any problems.
c) And lastly, I worked in manufacturing for many years, don't get fooled by appearance, It costs more to make a quality item, and get them independently tested like our local boys did. It's late, hope this makes sense tomorrow morning.

P.S. I think these cells should'nt cost more than $30 though, heck, street drugs are cheaper than that, so i'm told

 

[safe]

PingBattery,

I represent a group of people who are very dedicated to electric vehicles and are searching for a dependable and affordable supplier of LiFePO4 battery packs. Our group has an online website where products are discussed. We would like you to register with us and "sell" your product through us. We can give you additional credibility with the electric vehicle crowd because we have some really smarts guys in our group.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3276

My name is "safe" online

There seems to be no response, so that makes me suspect that they are either too busy (or already on their chinese vacation) or they are not interested in selling themselves to an educated audience. I'm sure there's no shortage of people who will buy anything they post on ebay so they might not need to bother even trying to sell. We will see.

It would be nice to get a relationship set up with people who do live in China and can get the raw batteries at "chinese" prices. However, the shipping is rather expensive so when you do the final calculation the "original price" and the "final delivered price" are quite different. My guess is that in China the cells go for maybe about $15 - $20 each and all the rest is shipping and markup. It would be nice to know more...

 

[giveahoot]

Right now is the Chinese Lunar New Year, so you might not receive an immediate response from Ping. He had already indirectly responded to this group in regards to his possible participation here. Maybe we can nicely convince him to reconsider. Although, I can't see how a group buy would be a profitable sale for him, if that, in fact, is what is being suggested. Probably a good portion of profit is made in the shipping.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2931&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=255#p46849

 

[safe]

I had not noticed that thread before.

It's good to know that Ping is potentially going to interact with us. I don't mind skipping the "Group Purchase" idea if PingBattery turns out to be able to get what we want at a good price. I'm open to any ideas... the idea here is to to use our collective weight and buying power to say:

"Hey, if you sell to us you can do a lot of business and have an avenue to build your reputation."

...I'm all for energetic cooperation with business, government and the buying public. The more harmonious we all are the better.

 

[giveahoot]

I think we need to convince him that we don't bite. I definitely believe a tiny bit of participation here would pay huge dividends, even if perhaps he's already selling at full capacity.

 

[flip_normal]

I don't think these are the same as the Taiwanese 40138 cells.

Lifebatt cells and the equivalent 40138s Patrick can get are 12C continious. 14C Max. discharge with 3C charge. Straight from the factory apparently.

 

[safe]

Lifebatt cells and the equivalent 40138s Patrick can get are 12C continious. 14C Max. discharge with 3C charge. Straight from the factory apparently.

I'm hoping that by presenting all the alternatives it will get everyone on board for an actual group purchase through Patrick.

We're in the situation where now everyone is expecting things to radically get better so everyone is holding off doing anything. A sort of "analysis - paralysis" has taken hold. At some point we need to pull the trigger on LiFePO4 and hopefully this process of examining all the possible options will do that.

My guess is that Patricks deal is about as good as can be got right now.

(I haven't seen a better deal so far that I can count on as being real)

 

[Patrick]

Hey everybody,

I thought I'd chime in here, and let you know how things stand as I see them.

First, the cells are 10C rated, 12C max as I understand it it. 3C charge is correct.

Second, I talked to the powers that be, and we can do $30/cell with a minimum 30 cell order. $35/cell is to cut down on onesy-twosy orders, which are a pain, almost more trouble than they're worth. Hopefully this will also eliminate the logistic trouble of coordinating the buy, the money, etc.

Third, we don't have a huge number of cells yet; we've got a few test packs and some loose. If any are going to be ordered, it should be this week, as we're going to be out of pocket for the next two weeks. It was said earlier that Chinese New Year is almost upon us, and this may delay things, I don't know. At least you know we're not sitting on some old inventory.

Fourth, I am expecting about 3 weeks shipping time to San Francisco (leaving any complication of the New Year aside). Frankly, I expect it faster, but would rather give an outside quote than disappoint people.

Fifth, there is the issue of testing. We can certainly put some on a CBA and give discharge curves. I can also send one to somebody on the board for independent analysis. My thought was DoctorBass if he is amenable, but I am open to suggestion. Fechter works in the neighborhood, and I could just drop one off to him - much faster if he has the time.

Lastly, what I am expecting in response. What I am looking for is a sense of commitment. If you want delivery in the next 30-45 days, you need to speak up and state your interest (you can certainly PM me, that might be more comfortable for everyone), so that we can get an idea of what to do. Let's say Tuesday (midnight PST) cutoff. No deposit required - it's the honor system. Remember the honor system works both ways - if you are unrealistic that might affect any future dealings. You can state this in any way you want:
I definitely want xx cells!
Think I want yy cells, but want to see the test results.
I'm sort of interested in zz cells, but not really sure . .

Obviously, the more commitment, the higher priority for your order. I can't say fairer than that.

Have a great weekend!

Patrick

 

[recumbent]

We're in the situation where now everyone is expecting things to radically get better so everyone is holding off doing anything. A sort of "analysis - paralysis" has taken hold. At some point we need to pull the trigger on LiFePO4 and hopefully this process of examining all the possible options will do that.

It's good you brought this to the table for discussion because the prices are steep and the chemistry is more understood by the battery makers.

This and trailblazers like "Safe" should help stabalize the price per cell, because $50 per 40138 cell is close to frighteningly expencive, but $30 we can digest and purchase more amp hours with confidence. Thanks for laying the groundwork.

 

[TylerDurden]

Any maximum amount?

Even if $ wire-xfer in advance?

 

[Patrick]

I can't imagine there would be a problem with that. Naturally, pre-payment makes sense for a very large order.

 

[safe]

...we can do $30/cell with a minimum 30 cell order.

I could use the full 30 and make two bikes with them, but would rather start small if possible. 15 is all I would need (in series) to produce a 48 volt pack that should be able to pull (4C) 40 amps pretty easily. That's $450 for a 48v 10ah (480 Wh) pack.

Anyone out there interested in 15 so that you could split it with me?

This is half of the price of LifeBatt.com for the same cells. ($440 for 8 compared to $450 for 15)

However, I still have to ask if there is a big hurry. It's only the beginning of February and most of us won't be actually using our bikes until about May or June. The weather in the midwest really sucks, my garage is still in the 40 degree range, so I won't be working on anything for a while.

I just have this feeling that if I buy something now that a few months later the price will drop. It's like buying a flat panel tv a few years ago... everything was $2500. Now you can get the same product for about $700, so I'd rather buy the minimum amount that I need for now and not any more.

 

[curious]

Can someone with a CBA amplifier do some rigorous comparison of this cell to a lifebatt one ? Like doing at least 10 full cycles on each at 12Cd / 3Cc. My RC experience tells me that cells having the same rating and appearance from different manufacturers do not always behave the same. After all we are talking about very expensive packs here, not just few cells like in RC world.

 

[safe]

Another question...

The cells have the bolts on the ends don't they?

All 40138's are not the same.

Are they made by Yesa Co., Ltd. (Shenzhen)?

 

[recumbent]

Do they have the date of manufacture printed on them :|

 

[safe]

http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/yesa001/product-detailBeXQmUMogTkz/China-Lifepo4-Auto-Car-Automobile-Vehicle-Batteries.html

For obvious reasons these are interesting to me because of how my old bike is configured. I wonder what they cost? It's frustrating that you have to send a request to these guys just to get any information. Imagine the range...

12V 20Ah (fit motor under 3000cc), replace 12V 40-60AH lead acid battery.

12V 30Ah (Fit motor more than 3000 cc), replace 12V 70Ah lead acid battery or above.

Normal Voltage 13.2 (12V)
Normal Charge Voltage 14.0V
Charge Voltage(max) 15.2V
Charge Voltage(min) 13.8V
Discharge Cutoff 8V
Charge Current Max Continuous 20A
Discharge Current Max Continuous 60A
Discharge Current Max Peak(5seconds) 400A
Length X Width X Height 195x165x170mm
Weight 4.3Kg
Energy Density 48Wh/L
Specific Energy 62Wh/kg
Impedance <14 mOhm
Discharging Temperature -20--75
Smart battery control 1 set

Model: LiFEPO4 pack for car E-bike Motorcycle
Standard: CE ROHS UL
Origin: China
Min. Order: 1

 

[Patrick]

Yes, the cells are threaded (have bolts) on each end. Red on one end, black on the other. I will post a few pictures later (in the middle of cooking, another joy in life, the BBQ timer is beeping). Also have some codes (and presumably serial numbers) on each.

They are not made in Shenzen (China), but in Taiwan.

Also, I agree with Safe. LiFePO4 is exploding, and (although not literally) I mean that in both a good and bad way. Yes, always something better "just around the corner". Myself, I still use lead - I've got so much (maybe 10 kWh) who cares? But how far away that corner is is a personal question. If you are happy with what you've got - stay with it!

However, his example was years compared with months. It may take a month or two just to get these. I'm not pushing it, just trying to offer an alternative to earlier adopters.

 

[TylerDurden]

For obvious reasons these are interesting to me because of how my old bike is configured. I wonder what they cost? It's frustrating that you have to send a request to these guys just to get any information.

The Ucharge line by Valence offers similar starting @ $750/battery. Yesa would beat that significantly.

For your bike 60A continuous is a cakewalk. For a car, it's pushing the limit: 48V 200A is common.

I would love to try the cylindricals in my car, but it would be sticking my neck out pretty damn far.

:?

 

[safe]

A Response From My Email:

Thanks for your inquiry,

YLH 40138 - 10Ah - 3.3V - LiFePO4 - Cylindrical Cell -------USD 35 /pc

110U.1220C1 - 20Ah - 12V - LiFePO4 - Car Battery --------USD 432 /pc

Yours sincerely,
Sam & lily
Yesa Co., Ltd
MSN: sales-yesa@hotmail.com or Skype me: sales-yesa
E-mail:sales@yesa.com.hk Lily6533@hotmail.com
Website: http://www.yesa.com.hk
TEL;86-755-88855368 15986775944 (Cell phone)
FAX: 86-755-82379471

So Patricks price is $5 less than the standard Yesa price which is consistent with a moderate volume purchase. However, I wonder if maybe a better deal could be made if we could create larger volume.

Patrick

Have you asked about higher volume and if you could cut the price even more?

Like $25 each for 100 cells?

$20 for 250 cells?

When it gets down to $20-$25 then people buy more and end up with a better pack. Even 250 divided between five people could mean only $1000 - $1250 each... for 50 cells each which is a heck of a lot of battery (1650 Wh) enough to make a few bikes.

 

[safe]

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2702-hands-test-48-volt-20-ah-lifepo4-pack-ping-battery

Re: Hands on Test : 48 Volt 20 AH LiFePO4 pack from Ping Battery

Submitted by andys on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 02:23.
In answer to the question above, I also own a YESA 48v 12AH pack that cost more than the 48/20 does from Ping. Pings pack has way more power and capacity in my experience with them both on the same scooter, and of course it should being a 48/20. So far, its a way better deal. I didn't ask too much detailed info on what individual cells he used. He mentioned something about them being a "soft as opposed to a hard style" that YESA uses. The cells he uses are also more compact. YESA's 48/20 wouldn't fit in my battery box.

The "soft" cells are what is called "prismatic cells". They are like a foil pouch so you can pack more of them in a tighter space.

Don Harmon

So PingBattery is using some odd LiFePO4 cells, not the 40138 cells.

 

[safe]

Patrick

Could you check on higher volume purchases?

$30 each for batches of 30

$ ?? each for batches of 100

$ ?? each for batches of 250

 

[Patrick]

Safe,

I think you've misunderstood. It's not that we are trying to retail the cells - Don Harmon's doing that. We're buying in pretty good volume, and I'm just extending an offer to the members on this board - haven't even posted on V. So, we get them at about $30 (I don't know the exact amount), and remember that includes shipping to the US, which isn't cheap. So no warranty etc. A few hundred extra cells is not a big deal. If somebody wants five thousand, that would be different.

Tyler said something about cars. We do have ThunderSky in hand, and these are only $2/Ah, instead of the of $3/Ah for the 40138. These are the 40 and 90 Ah cells - they are rated 3C, so if you wanted 200A capability, that would be $2880 for a 4.3 kWh pack. This is actually pretty good, considering that International Battery now has sole distribution in the US, and they want $3.50/Ah, which is ridiculous. We do have a sophisticated per cell BMS for these testing on the bench.

A small 48V pack is $1280 - not bad for about 2 kWh. Good for scooters/small bikes (err, not bicycles, although there is an Etrek bicycle with this pack).

Thanks to those that have PM'd me with interest. I'll be getting back to you in the next several days