Headway batteries advice

[docnjoj]

After careful consideration I have decided to get Headways 12S 15AH for my wifes new pack. I have checked the prices from both the Chinese and American companies and I believe I will spend a bit more and buy American. Headway Headquarters and Manzanta Micro were the choices but I know very little about either company. I do remember some "bad blood" with Headway Headquarters in 2010 or so regarding stolen batteries and Tesla cars. Any advice? The prices are within 50 bucks of the Chinese and the shipping should be a lot faster. I'm gunna buy the parts and assemble it myself, as usual.
Thanks in advance.
otherDoc

 

[scoot]

I think you might be mixing up HQ with that notorious outfit... heck if I can remember their name either ... but I think they were/are not afiliated. let's see how everyone elses memory is holding up though

 

[scoot]

Ah ha, i think I found the name of the "bad blood" vendor finally. Do you think that you might have been thinking of EV Components

As recall they alledgedly ran off with alot of customer money, and the company owner had a Tesla.

Anyway, unless somebody disuades me, I think my next purchace will be from Headway HQ... not sure when though.

 

[docnjoj]

I did a try out with their website (Headquarters) and it refused to accept my password, saying I already had one. Never could find shipping costs. Manzanta may be cheaper even though their actual prices are a little bit higher. Still Headway looks like a good choice compared to Chinese LiPo, at least for our trikes. We store and charge indoors and it would be embarrasing to burn down the house.
otherDoc

 

[davec]

either or vendor could help - they both are legit
not a fan of headway though- the cells are not upto my standards- it might be fine for some folks though not needing too much power- maybe 1-2c

Edit - 2c is optimistic for these cheap chinese cells- this is probably the weakest lifepo4 i've ever used
1c is more like it- definately invest in an LVC
these cells sag bad- and once you go under 2v that's it.... i've wasted 2 cells by not reacting quick enough to my lvc going up a hill and had to order replacements only to loose those as well. i'll never go back to these again- after running a123 for a year or so. you get what you pay for. sometimes i wish we had a reliable US source for lithium at a good price which would meet all of our needs

Edit 2- im talking about the 10ah they used to sell- if these new ones are any better no clue- but based on my past experience ill pay more for quality.

 

[docnjoj]

Thanks Davec. We usually stay well below 30 amps so only occasional 2C use.
otherDoc

 

[veloman]

I bought cells from Headway HQ and they have good customer service. Quick response to fix a shipping error. The prices came out to be the same or slightly better than a Chinese site.

 

[docnjoj]

Thanks Veloman. I guess it is time to order some and start building.
otherDoc

 

[hillyterrain]

I'm also looking for the ultimate battery solution And was wondering why you are choosing headway over others, e.g. Ping, price seems to be in the same range, any reasons? Thanks for sharing!

 

[Harold in CR]

Doc, you might try contacting member Frodus. He has been involved with headway battery sales, and knows most vendors pretty well, in the USA.

 

[Ykick]

either or vendor could help - they both are legit
not a fan of headway though- the cells are not upto my standards- it might be fine for some folks though not needing too much power- maybe 1-2c

My feelings exactly. I got barely used 3-4 year old string of 10Ah HW cells and 1/2 leaked both physically and electrically. Sag like boobs on a granny too and never saw full capacity even at moderate C rates.

Does this apply to current production? I have no idea but these were basically a waste of money.

 

[docnjoj]

either or vendor could help - they both are legit
not a fan of headway though- the cells are not upto my standards- it might be fine for some folks though not needing too much power- maybe 1-2c

My feelings exactly. I got barely used 3-4 year old string of 10Ah HW cells and 1/2 leaked both physically and electrically. Sag like boobs on a granny too and never saw full capacity even at moderate C rates.

Does this apply to current production? I have no idea but these were basically a waste of money.

Hmmmmm Ykick I haven't seen another report as bad as this before. They do have a warrantee from the US supplier and I am after the 15ah cells which hopefully will be better. I'm not a big fan of used cells unless you strip down the pack and do accurate IR for each cell. We use all our cells at 2C or less.
otherDoc

 

[Icewrench]

Headway cells are easy to build packs with. Using the plastic cell holders bus bars and screws is hard to mess it up. If a cell goes bad then not too big a job to replace it.
Headway HQ is a direct descendant of the evcomponent outfit that had lots of angry customers left holding the bag. How that ever worked out I do not know.

 

[Ykick]

Grain of salt, 'may not apply to current 15Ah product but I was very disappointed with the 10Ah cells back then. I built up a 1P pack with balance connectors and it couldn't handle 2-3C. Put 'em away fully charged for a month or so, no parasitic BMS or anything else connected and a couple cells went under 2V. I would balance them, run some light loads, same thing, if not worse.

Giving up I left 'em sit for year or two - recently pulled 'em out and that's when I discovered physical leakage and half the cells 0V. Might've been a bad batch or whatever but I was trying all sorts of DIY pack builds back then and these were not even close to being useful.

 

[scoot]

either or vendor could help - they both are legit
not a fan of headway though- the cells are not upto my standards- it might be fine for some folks though not needing too much power- maybe 1-2c

My feelings exactly. I got 3-4 year old string of 10Ah HW cells and 1/2 leaked both physically and electrically. Sag like boobs on a granny too and never saw full capacity even at moderate C rates.

Does this apply to current production? I have no idea but these were basically a waste of money.

Out of the 50 or more cells from 3 different sources (production lots too probably) that I have played with (3 different packs), I have not had any problems like many of the issues I have read about on occasion out here. Sure, I have damaged some when pulling 25 amps (2C) from start to finish on the bench (overheating), but otherwise no catastrophic issues. They are definitely over rated IMO in terms of their C rate claims, but my riding habits fortunately don't require 2c constant, and they have enough 4C delivery when I need it for short bursts (minute or two). I can confirm though that all of my cells have practically been just over 90% of rated capacity.

I am not surprised about leaking issues though... the epoxy filled negative terminals are fragile and prone to cracking when any minor bending/twisting occurs. That's why I think it is critical to assemble the packs in such a manner as to minimize that type of potential movement that can occur in a high vibration/bouncing environment. When I have encountered popped out epoxy joints, I have made the effort to refill them and encountered no leaking issues.

One of the huge advantages for me is their convenient connection strategy which allows to easily swap out individual cells when under-performers are identified. So ultimately while they are not perfect or ideal (not a123s by any stretch), but i find them adequate performers, economical and highly versatile for my application... just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Ykick]

I had to smile about the "ease of replacing" duff cells comments. Sorta what I do with my RC Lipoly only with a soldering iron instead of a screwdriver.

Scoot has obviously done well with HW's and don't put too much stock in my single experience with an entirely different product. But, that's what happened and this place is for sharing our experiences.

 

[hillyterrain]

So they claim 20C for this cell, anyone believe this?

http://headway-headquarters.com/38120hp/

 

[Tommy L]

Jim at Headway-Headquarters has always returned my calls.
Jim was also kind to chit-chat about testing and builds

I've tested both the Blue 8ah SP's and the Red 8ah HP . The working voltage at 4.5C is between 3.1 to 3.2v.
Working voltage is slightly higher when using a 1 or 2C.

I've also tested A123 round cells in a 4s4p configuration to 5-7C and the voltage is the same at 3.1 to 3.2v.

People keep saying SAG SAG SAG. I say: "If you like LiFePO4, then build the pack with enough parallel cells to give you the
working voltage you require while the pack is under load"

Here would be some examples:

Need 100amps constant at 76.8v?
Build a Headway Pack to at least 5P (assuming you are using the 8ah cells)
and put enough in series to give you your working voltage using 3.2v per cell, 24S will do it.

If the size and/or weight is not practical, then one must venture into lighter more powerful/dangerous RC LiCo.

One must work within the chemistries means and build appropriately. I read a lot of threads here and
I keep reading about the SAG. Stop using 36v 12s1p and asking it to do more than 20amps. It will probably not last,
go way out of balance, capacity will drop, then you'll end up killing a cell or cells, then complain about it.

It's best to figure out what your needs are and build to it. Not suck the life out of it! Pun intended

LiFePO4 does not handle high C stressing well, and I believe this to change the IR of the cell or cells.

Testing/experimenting with the Headway Cells and the A123 cells have given me a greater understanding of the
LiFePO4 chemistry and how to use it with in its means

Build or buy packs and use within it's ability and packs will last longer. Dang....... I just ranted. (at least the meaning is with compassion) lol

Tommy L sends.....

 

[docnjoj]

Thanks for the rant TommyL. We seldome draw more than 20 amps, and Headways are heavy. I have seen them conservatively rated at 2C and over-rated at 5C. I have a pack of A123 and I like them but I decided to get someting easier to put together and Headways are the easiest with little screws and connectors and wire/ring terminal combos for either BMS or Celllogs and a 12S charger. I would be quite surprised if they did not meet our purposes, which are 20 miles a day and 1-2C.
otherDoc

 

[Tommy L]

So they claim 20C for this cell, anyone believe this?

http://headway-headquarters.com/38120hp/

Yes, just like the A123 for 30 or 60C. The test is done with ONE cell and there is nearly no voltage during this massive current draw.

If you need a working voltage with current then one must build it with this in mind.

The minute you put them from Cell into a Battery configuration, there are losses thru the busbars and the likes.
Ask the Battery to do to much, then it's a big heating element. Sure, some spikes are tolerated for brief periods, but once too much
heat builds, the resistance increase and then the energy just turns into more heat.

Tommy L sends....

 

[dnmun]

Grain of salt, 'may not apply to current 15Ah product but I was very disappointed with the 10Ah cells back then. I built up a 1P pack with balance connectors and it couldn't handle 2-3C. Put 'em away fully charged for a month or so, no parasitic BMS or anything else connected and a couple cells went under 2V. I would balance them, run some light loads, same thing, if not worse.

Giving up I left 'em sit for year or two - recently pulled 'em out and that's when I discovered physical leakage and half the cells 0V. Might've been a bad batch or whatever but I was trying all sorts of DIY pack builds back then and these were not even close to being useful.

i have seen nothing like this at all with my stable of 38120S type cells. i did have some 3-4 drop to .8V-1.2V from sitting for 3 -4 years but no way did they all drop to zero and in fact few of them dropped below 3.3V at all from sitting for years. but i find that many seem to go down to 3.42V in a day or weeks after charging and stay there but they seem to still have full capacity, but the older tab type cells do not drop that much. from my experience anyway. you may have other stuff going on.

the most critical thing is to follow the directions from headway and not use a long screw on the negative terminal or leave out the washers because the screw will puncture the cell inside when you torque it down. i think this is the big risk of the guys who use the allen screws to connect them in series since there is no way to keep the allen screw from puncturing the cell. they may sag but they do withstand over discharge abuse better than anything else it seems. jmho.

also i think jimmyD is top notch help too. too bad he got tarred by the evil from EV components for no reason.

 

[Tommy L]

Thanks for the rant TommyL. We seldome draw more than 20 amps, and Headways are heavy. I have seen them conservatively rated at 2C and over-rated at 5C. I have a pack of A123 and I like them but I decided to get someting easier to put together and Headways are the easiest with little screws and connectors and wire/ring terminal combos for either BMS or Celllogs and a 12S charger. I would be quite surprised if they did not meet our purposes, which are 20 miles a day and 1-2C.
otherDoc

Hi Other Doc!

Me and my wife also ride trikes. I have the Catrike 700 and my wife has got the Pocket. I've just ordered the Utah Trikes Extension kit to up her rear wheel from 20" to 26" I also ordered two 20" wheels for the front. 18" was the stock.

The Catrikes are very efficient. When pedalling, maybe 9wh per km

Click on my Hooligan Build. Some pics of my Headway build

Tommy L sends.......

 

[docnjoj]

Thanks for the rant TommyL. We seldome draw more than 20 amps, and Headways are heavy. I have seen them conservatively rated at 2C and over-rated at 5C. I have a pack of A123 and I like them but I decided to get someting easier to put together and Headways are the easiest with little screws and connectors and wire/ring terminal combos for either BMS or Celllogs and a 12S charger. I would be quite surprised if they did not meet our purposes, which are 20 miles a day and 1-2C.
otherDoc

Hi Other Doc!

Me and my wife also ride trikes. I have the Catrike 700 and my wife has got the Pocket. I've just ordered the Utah Trikes Extension kit to up her rear wheel from 20" to 26" I also ordered two 20" wheels for the front. 18" was the stock.

The Catrikes are very efficient. When pedalling, maybe 9wh per km

Click on my Hooligan Build. Some pics of my Headway build

Tommy L sends.......

We are probably not that efficient, more like 12-15 wh/mile, although that is fairly close. Our trikes are not light, mine with the full suspension and hers with heavy steel construction but they do cut through the wind and are comfortable. Important features for us old folks.
otherdoc

edit: Wow 28S on tha Hooligan! It must fly!

Utah Trikes is a fine company. They made a rear trailer hitch for my wife's trike. Quite reasonable and we use it for a platform to carry her battery case.

 

[Tommy L]

edit: Wow 28S on tha Hooligan! It must fly!

28S lol

When I use my Lyen 4115 18fet I use 40S (a near 80kph)

But in all practicality, I run it using 24S4P A123 76.8v nom for 53kph max on the 9C2810 with a Ebikes.ca C7225.
50kph is more than plenty on a non modified bicycle :wink:
Well, I guess it is modified! lol
I truly need to build my own frame with Batteries in frame(low centre of gravity) DOT Rim/tires.
Thread to follow!

Wife and I are now in our 50's.....trikes are easier on back, neck and wrists for sure!

Here's a vid of the Hooligan at 128v nominal

Tommy L sends.........

[youtube]JC_JmWNKxC4[/youtube]

 

[USAEBIKECO]

Gotta love that cycle analyst!! Every ebike should have one.