Heart set on pusher trailer; newbie welcomes advice

[LongRyder]

Greetings! I've been avidly reading this forum for the last few days and enjoying every eye-frying minute.

My wife has gotten me back into biking around town and taking some longer rides for exercise. As if I don't already have enough projects lurking in the back of my mind, I've started thinking about using a bike for a long commute. I've got to get my weight down (~225 lbs at 5'10"), and longer rides will take a bite out of my gas expenditures. I just bought a 1995 Cadillac DeVille after wanting an old-man car for 20 years.

I live in Xenia, Ohio, and during the school year I'm the pianist for the choirs at the Loveland, Ohio schools. They're both very bike-friendly towns with 40 miles of flat, paved, well-kept bike path between them, and I'm feeling froggy enough to want to tackle it once I get a more comfortable bike seat and the weather starts to cool down.

I have a Diamondback I got used from a local store. I honestly don't know more about it than that, so I'm attaching a picture for general reference. I've had it up around 25 MPH at least and felt completely safe.

I'm going to try to make a front fairing/windshield next week out of some sort of Plexiglass, and I'm half tossing around the idea of a side fairing, too.

But, there's no way I'm going to attempt an 80-mile round trip without electric help. For one, I sweat like mad and I want to keep a lid on that as much as possible. For another, there are going to be at least two hills right when I get to Loveland that I just ain't gonna pedal up.

If I can average at least 25 MPH the whole way with light-to-mild pedaling, it would be worth the build. I can recharge batteries while I'm at the school. I'd like to start with SLA and worry about better batteries later, because I'm not going to charge LiPo's inside a school until I'm used to them. I've seen hints but not explanations about using NiCads in conjunction with SLAs to minimize Peukert's effect.

I'm pretty set on a two-wheeled trailer because I want to still be able to hop on the bike and take it around town without people being tempted to steal a nice e-bike. Also, I have a longer-term daydream of using the trailer as a base for a bike camper most likely made of coroplast, so I'm thinking no more than 50 pounds of gear with small stove, sleeping bag, water, cooler, etc. (I'd rig up jacks to support the frame when I sleep on it.)

I'll have a ton of questions about brakes, kill switches, tires, etc., but I figured it would be easiest to tackle one subject at a time.

The first thing I want to figure out is what kind of motor and electronics I need. Since I'm new at all this, I think hub motors would be the easiest for me to build a frame around, plus I don't want the drag from a chain drive.

What would I need as far as motor and battery power?

The thought of getting two scooter motors like one of Rassy's builds is appealing, since scooters can be had so cheap. Would a motor off a Razor be geared? Another thought I had was that, if one of the motors went kaput, I'd still have the other to limp me to where I'm going.

I was also impressed with what evdeals.com offers for $400, but that would mean only one motorized wheel, since I'm trying to keep that part of my just-made-up budget around that amount.
http://www.evdeals.com/electricrider_conversion_kit_bas.htm

I have read through a lot of threads, but wrapping my mind around new concepts while trying to figure out what I need is tough. Please, sling advice my way!

 

[markz]

Just go to Luna Cycle for your motor and battery and charger and controller.
http://lunacycle.com/motors/conversion-kits/
http://lunacycle.com/batteries-for-kits/
http://lunacycle.com/batteries/chargers/

Pusher trailer is alright I guess for on-road pavement riding, but I would go with a direct drive rear, or a mid drive like a bbs02 if you have hills.

 

[dogman dan]

Well, I hate to be discouraging, but 80 miles a day, well, even in my strong youth doing that and a day's work would be a real handful.

First thing to consider is cutting that in half, and more than in half for the first weeks. Drive your car to a place 10 miles from work, then ride from there. That's at least a gallon of gas, if not two. Then go to a 30 mile day, see how that goes. Counting all the cost per mile of car use, you can put ten bucks a day in your pocket shaving 30 miles a day off your drive.

That gives you a decent budget, to forget about the lead. No way you will ever be doing 80 miles on lead, even with a trailer. You'd be talking about a 100 pound load on that trailer.

Put a rear hub motor on the bike, and even if it means borrowing, get a 48v 20 ah lithium battery. Get one that is light, not over 20 pounds. Then you don't need a trailer at all. You just need panniers for your rack. Battery in one pannier, your spare clothes, tool kit, etc in the other. Rack top still free for random cargo.

Oh, that's right, you still want to be able to ride short distances without the motor. That's what the other bike is for. Spend only $50-80 on that. Or spend more on the bike you motorize. This is why I have 6 e-bikes, but I'm not even sure how many bikes without motors. I just grab nice bikes for under $50 when I find them. Some I only want one part off it, and then I'll only pay $20. A second bike will not bust your budget.

If you do decide on a trailer just for cargo like groceries, then get a one wheel trailer. One wheel trailer handles a lot better when a car runs you off the road into the ditch. It could happen daily, depending on the road you will be on.

Your car is plenty big, but eventually when all the other stuff gets paid for out of the gas savings, get a hitch and hitch mount bike rack, or platform for the car. Eventually you could get to where you ride 60 miles a day, and only drive 10. But that will come when it's next spring, and you have pedaled yourself into better shape than you dreamed possible. 30 miles per charge is within the range of a 48v 20 ah lithium battery. Lithium has double the range per ah of lead. So make that your goal for now, 30 miles per charge. Next year, maybe the whole 80, but honestly I feel that will always be too far for a daily commute. 25 miles per charge might be the most you really feel good with doing, ever.

Lastly the clothes. You will need bike shorts for this many miles. Or put the pad from bike shorts into some riding pants. That seam in your dockers will kill you after about 40 miles. You still may need a better seat. Adjust it right, along with everything else on the bike. Don't ignore pain in your crotch, you need to sit on your pelvis bones, not the base of your penis. So this means a too low handlebar, combined with a tilt up on your seat can be a real problem. Get the bike adjustments perfect.

 

[dnmun]

i have only known one person who did a long commute and it was only 26 miles one way. he had a two motor recumbent and a huge battery built from lipo pouches.

there is no way that hardtail is gonna let you ride even the 40 miles one way.

you may think your town is bike friendly, but they do not read poetry, they read their texts while driving so when they look up and see you in front of them it will not register in the brain fast enuff or soon enuff before the they overtake you. even flashing lights and strobes are not enuff because they spent the entire previous section of open road overtaking you while looking for the answer they are seeking in the text message. it is not safe. you have to make it safe. have good rear view mirrors and always have a way out of their line of fire while riding in traffic. or beside it.

 

[LongRyder]

I did forget to mention one very important point: this isn't a daily commute of 80 miles. I only go to the school 2-3 days a week as it is, and I'd most likely only be attempting this one day a week. The work isn't strenuous, and I'm not even there for a full day. I have a two-period lunch break, too, so getting a nap in would be easy and probably necessary. If this were 8 hours of taxing work, there's no way I'd try this. There's also the possibility of staying overnight down there, and I'd also thought about driving partway once I get the trailer hitch put on my car. Trust me, I'm not just going to jump on the bike and go 80 miles without working up to it.

I do have shorts with ass pad, and I'm definitely going to get a better seat no matter what.

Having an extra bike wouldn't be bad, but I'm so crammed for space. When I do the trailer, I'm going to need to build a "doghouse" for it next to the shed.

Here's another option: put a hub motor on the bike first and use that for the relatively shorter training distances. Then I could start work on the trailer and motorize just one of the wheels. Then I could build the trailer over the winter and have it ready by spring. Partly, this would make a great winter project.

Let's say I go that route with the V5 Magic Pie and start by doing driving halfway and then biking, so ~20 miles one way on bike.
http://lunacycle.com/motors/conversion-kits/golden-motor-v5-magic-pie-complete-kit/

What advantages would the single-speed or 8-speed freewheel give me, and what would the programming cable do for me?

 

[dnmun]

you don't need a trailer. just good batteries to go the distance and then recharge at school to make the trip back. big lipo packs is the only way to carry the capacity.

commute with a big EMC1000 charger so it could be recharged at school and a BMS to protect it from over discharge. maybe something like 20S25Ah of lipoly would barely make it one way.

 

[LongRyder]

Arg! Like I said in the original post, part of the reason for the trailer is to use it as a bike camper base also.

 

[dequinox]

Just go to Luna Cycle for your motor and battery and charger and controller.
http://lunacycle.com/motors/conversion-kits/
http://lunacycle.com/batteries-for-kits/
http://lunacycle.com/batteries/chargers/

Pusher trailer is alright I guess for on-road pavement riding, but I would go with a direct drive rear, or a mid drive like a bbs02 if you have hills.

Thanks for posting that markz, I didn't know about Luna, and I especially didn't know they still carried the Turnigy 80-100 equivalent motors! I had been eyeballing that motor for a couple of years, and then they discontinued them before I had a chance to buy one.

For LongRyder:

It sounds like you want something like this:
[youtube]qJG5u-QawaI[/youtube]
http://electricbicycletrailer.com/

If you go to the website, you'll note that this trailer has lead... which is not going to be very useful. You could replace the lead in the design with something like these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-10Ah-Li...NG-INCLUDED-/221591749118?hash=item3397e5c1fe. They have a max discharge rate of about 5 amps each though if you want them to last, so you'd want something like a 3s4p (really 12s16p if you're talking about the cells inside) in order to keep the lifespan long. These dakota lithium ones sell for about $0.62 per watt hour.

As for the battery advice, I'd have to agree with others in saying for 40mi one way you're going to want to discard lead as a viable option. Nicad and Nimh are going to be difficult to manage. I had a nicad pack configured in 25S10P that worked for a long time, but only because the cells were of incredible high quality and were balanced really well. It recently tried to burn itself to shreds, and that was...interesting. These two are heavy chemistries as well, and are only a bit better than lead. Nimh is the better of the two anyways, but if you look for cells large enough to work in a single string (you can't parallel these up safely if don't take some measures to protect them from eachother) you're going to be spending more than lithium at $0.80 per watt hour for F-sized nimh cells.

I'd consider LiPo despite your concerns about burning down the school (I know... that sounds horrible), just because you can get far more watt hours per $ than a lot of other chemistries: These go for as low as $0.40 per watt-hour... which is cheap. The cheapest one at luna looks like about $0.50. The downside is that you need a smart-charger and, being that you have to charge about a full kWhr during your work-day, you'll need one that can charge at 250 watts or better. That's not terribly unreasonable...and they aren't that expensive at hobby king... around $80 to $120 depending on which kind you want.

I think you can do this with a trailer, but I'd recommend lithium. What kind of lithium entirely depends on how much $$ you have to spend too. You can easily get a direct drive hub kit for $230, but the battery is the expensive part at almost twice that cost.

 

[dnmun]

if you wanna make a camper trailer you can do that but not both. build the bike to travel the long commute and then haul the trailer when you have to.

 

[LongRyder]

The camper part of the trailer would be attached to the existing trailer base and could be removed. I didn't get into too much of the details about the camper part because that's not what I need just yet.

I've looked at electricbicycletrailer.com a few times. The trouble is, they're so vague on what their plans entail.... If I were to order actual plans, I'd go with atomiczombie because I've heard mostly or all good about them, and I know their build forums are helpful.

For the battery, I'd be a LOT more inclined to make one out of laptop batteries. There are some very good videos on YouTube about that. Honestly, if I hadn't run across those, I probably would have tossed the idea of an e-bike at all because of the battery expense. For as much as all that would cost me, I could have repaired my old Honda.

 

[dnmun]

that is what you should do. fixing the honda is something you can do. this is more than you are capable of it appears if you are thinking of using old laptop cells and pulling a trailer everywhere.

 

[LongRyder]

Thanks, but I'm pretty sure a new clutch is a leeetle more complicated.

 

[dequinox]

The camper part of the trailer would be attached to the existing trailer base and could be removed. I didn't get into too much of the details about the camper part because that's not what I need just yet.

I've looked at electricbicycletrailer.com a few times. The trouble is, they're so vague on what their plans entail.... If I were to order actual plans, I'd go with atomiczombie because I've heard mostly or all good about them, and I know their build forums are helpful.

For the battery, I'd be a LOT more inclined to make one out of laptop batteries. There are some very good videos on YouTube about that. Honestly, if I hadn't run across those, I probably would have tossed the idea of an e-bike at all because of the battery expense. For as much as all that would cost me, I could have repaired my old Honda.

It's too bad you missed out on the sell off I had of dead packs. If you've been perusing YouTube for laptop battery pack builds, you may have run across more than a few videos that deal in used ones and how you can salvage usable cells from dead packs. I had about 1000lbs I acquired from a recycle, but I've since sold off the extras. I might have a few more small lots in the future, but for now I'm calling it quits. You might want to start off with a new set of cells anyways. They can go for between $0.50/Whr to $1.00/Whr...depending on where you get them.

 

[LongRyder]

Ooh, that would have been cool. I may have a source - at the school, actually - for laptop batteries. I don't know how many I can get, though. But I could always build a smaller pack just to see how it goes.

I mean...if making my own battery pack only saved me $100, then I'd go for a new one, but I think it can be done cheaper, even if I bought new laptop batteries, which I'll definitely look at.

 

[markz]

Buying new cells requires a spot tab welder for proper installation. Also requires soldering ability and know-how which means you need a adjustable soldering iron.

For ease just buy a new battery pack. 36-48V are cheap.

 

[nutnspecial]

Yup^^^

Thanks, but I'm pretty sure a new clutch is a leeetle more complicated.

Welcome!
Actually, the clutch wouldn't be bad. Haynes manual, a jack, stands, a few tools, and the 150$ fresh clutch. Utube is useful too. If you're wanting to do this for fairly long travel, in leu of replacing the clutch on a honda, I am not sure how that makes sense.

If you're doing it for fun and a challenge, and for the unique benefits an ebike can offer, I hear that, although working on cars shouldn't seem anymore unreachable or expensive. (in fact, ice is still far cheaper and more useful in general)

Anyway, the tech is great and fun, and can be quite useful and save money, depending on desired criteria. The range and camper trailer are awesome ideas.
I think the answers so far have been accurate. Keep the specific questions coming, I'm looking forward to see what you decide on/ come up with! --Best!

 

[dequinox]

Buying new cells requires a spot tab welder for proper installation. Also requires soldering ability and know-how which means you need a adjustable soldering iron.

For ease just buy a new battery pack. 36-48V are cheap.

No, it really doesn't. You can solder to 18650s just fine. Refer to our own ES wiki for tips & info: Soldering 18650 cells

That said, I will agree that welding is better as long as the weld joints are done with the proper settings. If you have a DIY tab welder, the most important part I can stress (having thought about it a while) is perhaps the consistency. If your just "tapping a big switch" you might not get consistent welds...which may result in some coming loose. You can overheat an 18650 with a welder too, so if you go that route be careful.

 

[markz]

Maybe the tab welders without a timing circtuit. But I do not know. It looks like the transformer welders heat the cells up quite abit.
I was almost tempted there to start soldering my a123's after reading that wiki.

For used laptop cells, low current then go ahead and solder. I just do not know about brand new cells and soldering vs. something like a JP welder thats for sale on this forum.

 

[LongRyder]

The Honda has so much else wrong with it that the clutch isn't really worth it. I've been starting to do the maintenance and a few small repairs on the Cadillac, and I'm finding that I really like it.

But the bike is partly for fun - I need a hobby that's not sedentary, and a completely different challenge than anything else in my life.

 

[Rassy]

Hi LongRyder, and welcome to the forum.

Since I saw my name in your first post of this thread, I would like to share some thoughts. You have certainly done some thinking and research. The following is not meant as advice, but just more food for thought.

First, costs. After retiring to a home with a 15% grade on the road and even a short 20% grade in my driveway, I sold my old pleasure bike. Then, after my grandson ruined a cheap little 24V sit down scooter I purchased a $50 Walmart bike and fitted the complete scooter system to it with the motor as a mid-drive just ahead of the crank, no freewheels. It actually worked great, but my hill was just too steep and I got careless after a couple of dozen trips and burned up the motor. Since then, I have put together at least a dozen bikes, trikes, and pusher trailers in an effort to conquer that hill. Most were eventually given away to friends and relatives, even those that worked good on the hill, as this hobby became addictive, and there was always something else to try. My guess is I've spent at least $10,000 on this hobby over the last 10 years, even though that first e-bike was super cheap.

Full circle, my latest project is closer to that first bike than any of the others were, even though it is a tadpole trike for comfort and balance issues. Even though I don't live on that hill anymore, this trike will easily pull a 15% grade. It is also capable of over 25 MPH on the flat with no human assist, but I have the top speed set close to the legal 20 MPH. It uses a 500 Watt BBS02 motor and a 10 AH LiFeP04 battery. My range anxiety is now gone, because I can easily pedal this trike with no assist, which was impossible with most of my previous builds due to weight and friction.

What's my point? Not much really. You will have to build what you want, then improve it, including starting over from the ground up, etc. Any trailer behind a two wheel bike, particularly a fairly heavy trailer, is apt to be spooky at speeds over 20 MPH. It's nice to have some redundancy in case of a failure, but that just adds to the weight/friction and your ability to move it under your own power, as well as cutting into your batteries range.

I agree with previous posts concerning SLA, but I'm not into building my own batteries or worrying about high maintenance batteries, so PING batteries are currently my first choice.

Good luck with whatever you come up with.

 

[LongRyder]

Thanks for stopping by, Rassy -- I'd hoped you would since you've been down the trailer road. In fact, I was reading your trailer build threads again just a few minutes ago.

A motorized trike was actually my first idea (no pusher trailer for it), but I have not the space for it, and I need to get used to trikes a little more, since I've only been on one once. But yeah...a few years down the road, I'm thinking full aluminum-covered velocar kind of deal. I'll work my way up to that dream.

After thinking over all the opinions on the thread, I think this is what I want to do so far:

1) Get a hub motor for my bike and start driving part way and biking the rest for the commute. For the trip back to the car, since I don't have much of a set schedule, I wouldn't even mind pedaling part of that if the battery goes.

2) Build a trailer from scooter wheels. My wife and I were walking tonight, and I mentioned that if I had the trailer, we could also use that on her bike to take some longer rides together.

3) Work on the camper part of the trailer later.

4) Be able to use the trailer to haul maybe 50 pounds locally. Sometimes I ship bigger boxes via UPS, and the closest UPS store is ~8 miles away. A cargo trailer for that would be awesome.

Rassy, since I know you in particular have used scooter parts, if there's anything you mention in your threads that would be useful info, I'd love to hear it.

I might even start with just using SLA on the bike for short rides and keep collecting laptop batteries until I have enough to start on a pack.

I appreciate the encouragement and positive comments -- I know I've got a learning curve ahead of me, but I'm ready to have some fun with this.

 

[Rassy]

Rassy, since I know you in particular have used scooter parts, if there's anything you mention in your threads that would be useful info, I'd love to hear it.

I once purchased three well abused scooters. When I got the first one I used the entire swing arm to make a one-wheel power trailer which I used behind a delta recumbent trike. This scooter had 4 SLA 20 AH batteries and had a curb weight of about 160# and a top speed of about 30 MPH. The motor/wheel assembly weighed about 20#. As a pusher trailer it was a tiger, but a little unwieldy for the trike.

When I got the other scooters I made a two-wheel pusher trailer for the trike just for kicks. Worked like a charm, but was so heavy, even with a pair of 20 AH LiFeP04 batteries. Plus, it didn't qualify as a legal e-bike with a top speed of about 30 MPH.

Other than my original e-bike that used a little 24v scooter system, that was my only experience using scooter parts.

A couple of years ago I put a Bafang geared hub motor in a 16" wheel on a friends BOB trailer with a 10 AH LiFeP04 battery. He loves it. He can use the trike without the trailer, and even with the trailer, only uses the power on hills.

If I was going to build a new two-wheel pusher trailer my motor choice would be a pair of small free wheeling geared hub motors with a voltage/winding/wheel size for my desired speed. Just a note of caution, some of my one wheel pusher trailers were quite unstable behind both bikes and trikes, particularly with a short distance between the bike and the trailer wheel(s) or with too much flex in the trailer frame. Even a conventional non motorized BOB trailer can start to sway if the load is too top heavy.

 

[dequinox]

Hi Rassy! It's been a while since I ran across a post of yours, and I thought maybe you weren't active any more. Good to see you still posting! I still have those parts you gave me, and recently dug them out with intention to get my push trailer going. I need to do some deep discharge tests of the lithium you provided, it has been sitting for some time but still shows 52 volts.

You may want to watch that build too LongRyder... I have been meaning to make some sort of progress on it for a few years now, but life, school, having 2 kids, and work has been in the way. I think I'm finally getting to a point where I can make some progress though, and will post a build thread soon.

All great thoughts from Rassy. I like your new direction with the commute, and I think you might have the best time with a Ping battery. That is definitely the simplest and most reliable of the prepackaged battery solutions... and the prices are reasonable for something that already includes a BMS. Plus you know you're getting something quality, and it will be simple plug-n-play goodness!

 

[dogman dan]

You'll like having the motor on the bike I think. Much better control than a pusher trailer. And easier to hop on and do local rides, those short trips that make no sense to take a car.

And just bike, vs bike plus trailer will be easier to carry to halfway to the job. Halfway, you could easily do it all three days. 20 miles is not bad at all for a commute. Mine was 15, but I very often took the long way on the ride home.

But when you do go for a trailer, this one is only 80 bucks on Amazon. This is what I use for grocery runs. Since it has only one wheel, it could be a pusher too. The baby buggy two wheel trailers will be difficult as hell to swap a wheel for a motor. Not much modification would make it a scooter wheel pusher. The only problem with this trailer is the mounts go on the axle, and motor axles are too big. I added some steel to the bike, so I could mount the trailer connections.

 

[LongRyder]

The other nice thing about biking the last half is that the first half is the better drive, without all the starts and stops. That last half is also where I have to deal with hasty, irritated commuters like me. So, I'd be getting better gas mileage and still be getting some of the solitude I want.